Tascam BR-20T Story...

[sweetbeats]

I forgot to mention that the ^(*#@$%& hood for the 37-pin dsub connector for the Tascam end of the sync cable is to fat to fit in the recess in the back of the BR-20T... I'll have to find a different hood. I took it off for now but I'm not comfortable leaving it that way.

Danny, I've been reading the Microlynx manual and wow...it just keeps getting better. A real gem of electronic engineering if you ask me. And, yes, I see where your frustration about the technical nature of the writing in the manual comes from...it is not for the average home recordist just getting into synchronization, but it reads WAY better than the manual for the Tascam ES-50/51 which was a frustrating surprise to me when I was trying to learn how to use mine. The Microlynx manual does have a pretty decent way of getting you up and running with the basics, but when you get into the detailed keyboard instructions it gets deep. But the system itself is just cool the way you select machines to a group, select the master...the ability to program macros for common functions...once you get familiar with the keyboard it is actually quite intuitive. The last synchronizer I will ever need for sure. Folks, if you are in the market for a synchronizer to slave your tape deck or multiple tape decks to MTC or you just want to chase-lock machines, seriously consider the Timeline Microlynx...it is IT and they can be had for a relative song. Very well-designed unit.

Danny, if timecode is the master (in other words when viewing the Group the "T" is the first in the group and capitalized), does that include then incoming MTC at the MIDI IN jack and as long as the MIDI IN jack is configured in the system setup to read MTC then the Microlynx will happily chase-lock all connected transports to that MTC as long as the group is setup properly?

I had a chance to test out some of the functions of the Microlynx last night after striping a reel of tape and just the autolocate functions alone make the Microlynx worth the price of admission...the only thing (so far) I couldn't get it to make the BR do properly was to JOG backwards...it'll SHUTTLE forward and backward but it will only JOG forward. The transport acts like it tries to jog back but the transport appears confused. Anyway, just skimming the surface and I'm sure I'll figure out the answer to that one eventually.

Another plus for the BR-20T transport: I am shocked at how quickly it resolves to a new timecode position...the overshoot is so minimal. Way different than my 58 was with the ES-50/51, though I was never able to set the ES-50 to the specific characteristics of the 58 because the ES-50 needs to have two machines connected in order to complete the auto-setup procedure. But the Microlynx seamlessly and transparently figures all that stuff out (dynamic characteristics, responsiveness, etc.) and the BR-20T is able to respond so well to the instructions.

Tim, BTW, I meant to comment on your BR-20T vs. ATR60-2T thoughts and yes I think you would be just tickled with either one. The ATR60 likely has a bit more robust transport but the BR may actually be a better *sounding* deck but that is totally subjective and based on other's comments that may or may not be reputable...I think you'll have an easier time finding the BR though.

ALSO...Tim, here are spec sheets on the pins, receptacles and hoods for the Microlynx sync cables...the parts are JAE. The spec sheets at least have part number references so this will aid in the search. Can't recall where I found these spec sheets, but here they are in .pdf:

https://www.torridheatstudios.com/ftp/share/Documentation/TimeLine/TimeLine%20Microlynx/machine%20interface%20cable/

 

[pianodano]

Danny, I've been reading the Microlynx manual and wow...it just keeps getting better. A real gem of electronic engineering if you ask me. And, yes, I see where your frustration about the technical nature of the writing in the manual comes from...it is not for the average home recordist just getting into synchronization, but it reads WAY better than the manual for the Tascam ES-50/51 which was a frustrating surprise to me when I was trying to learn how to use mine. The Microlynx manual does have a pretty decent way of getting you up and running with the basics, but when you get into the detailed keyboard instructions it gets deep. But the system itself is just cool the way you select machines to a group, select the master...the ability to program macros for common functions...once you get familiar with the keyboard it is actually quite intuitive. The last synchronizer I will ever need for sure. Folks, if you are in the market for a synchronizer to slave your tape deck or multiple tape decks to MTC or you just want to chase-lock machines, seriously consider the Timeline Microlynx...it is IT and they can be had for a relative song. Very well-designed unit.

I just get frustrated trying to find specific functions from time to time.

Danny, if timecode is the master (in other words when viewing the Group the "T" is the first in the group and capitalized), does that include then incoming MTC at the MIDI IN jack and as long as the MIDI IN jack is configured in the system setup to read MTC then the Microlynx will happily chase-lock all connected transports to that MTC as long as the group is setup properly?

Cory I wouldn't be surpised if it worked as you have asked. But I have never had the reason to try. Just asking so help me out here. If you make T the master, exactly what would it be referencing ? Perhaps a master tape recorder and then have the DAW chase ? But if you did that, it would defeat my whole ideas on beauty and simplicity of the Microlynx system WHICH to my knowledge, is the only system that will allow you to actually chase the DAW without further hokus pokus and wizbang gadgets. I mean, all DAW software outputs MTC thru any midi port (I speculate about the ALL of course but if a programmer can't produce a midi program that without further adieu outputs midi time code, he should probably find another line of work in my estimation) but it sure gets complex getting SMPTE tc out of a DAW. My experience is that DAW software does not like to resolve to anything other than the digital clock. Yeah I know all the software says it will, but that's nothing but a bunch of hooey ULESS you must sync to video and then it gets realcostly to do it right. I am talking about us "home recordist". . . . So exactly what are you trying to acomplish re what you have asked?

I had a chance to test out some of the functions of the Microlynx last night after striping a reel of tape and just the autolocate functions alone make the Microlynx worth the price of admission...the only thing (so far) I couldn't get it to make the BR do properly was to JOG backwards...it'll SHUTTLE forward and backward but it will only JOG forward. The transport acts like it tries to jog back but the transport appears confused. Anyway, just skimming the surface and I'm sure I'll figure out the answer to that one eventually.

I seem to remember a menu fuction that had something to do with JOG speed, increments or something. But maybe it was some other device. I forget.

Another plus for the BR-20T transport: I am shocked at how quickly it resolves to a new timecode position...the overshoot is so minimal. Way different than my 58 was with the ES-50/51, though I was never able to set the ES-50 to the specific characteristics of the 58 because the ES-50 needs to have two machines connected in order to complete the auto-setup procedure. But the Microlynx seamlessly and transparently figures all that stuff out (dynamic characteristics, responsiveness, etc.) and the BR-20T is able to respond so well to the instructions.

Yep, like I mentioned in the short video I had posted a year or so back, this baby resolves a machine like right now. You will never hear anything wierd happen either as it pulls up a machine. And when it shows a lock, well you can bet that machine is locked. What a shame that the TIMELINE company is history. I have always wondered just what if anything Tascam had to do with their demise. I do know that the MX2424 used some sort of Timeline technolgy.

 

[sweetbeats]

Cory I wouldn't be surpised if it worked as you have asked. But I have never had the reason to try. Just asking so help me out here. If you make T the master, exactly what would it be referencing ? Perhaps a master tape recorder and then have the DAW chase ? But if you did that, it would defeat my whole ideas on beauty and simplicity of the Microlynx system WHICH to my knowledge, is the only system that will allow you to actually chase the DAW without further hokus pokus and wizbang gadgets. I mean, all DAW software outputs MTC thru any midi port (I speculate about the ALL of course but if a programmer can't produce a midi program that without further adieu outputs midi time code, he should probably find another line of work in my estimation) but it sure gets complex getting SMPTE tc out of a DAW. My experience is that DAW software does not like to resolve to anything other than the digital clock. Yeah I know all the software says it will, but that's nothing but a bunch of hooey ULESS you must sync to video and then it gets realcostly to do it right. I am talking about us "home recordist". . . . So exactly what are you trying to acomplish re what you have asked?

All I'm really wanting to know is how to tell the Microlynx to slave to that incoming MTC. As far as I understand it the default system setup is for the master to be one of the transports connected to the system unit, but nowehere do I see how/where you define that incoming MTC is the system master in the group. I'm going to read some more and I'm sure I can figure it out.

 

[pianodano]

Oh. Sorry I thought I explained that in the post above. WHATEVER device is the Capital letter (first in group)is the master. SO by Putting "M" first, MTC is the master.

EDIT: Which means everything else in the GROUP is being manipulated by the system to chase to MTC.

 

[sweetbeats]

no-no I understand that...you explained that just great. The trick is that 'M' is not one of my choices...my options are a, b or t.

 

[pianodano]

Huh ? What the ? Give me a minute so I can check.

 

[pianodano]

no-no I understand that...you explained that just great. The trick is that 'M' is not one of my choices...my options are a, b or t.

On the controller it's marked A B C TCG and Midi above the buttons. Below them is the GRP button , solo, loop, bla bla.


PRESS AND HOLD THE GRP button and while the GRP button is still depressed, press the Midi button, then while still holding GRP button down depress the TCG (time code generate) and then while still holding down the GRP button depress machine A button (that's assuming the ATR is plugged into the machine A port). That will cause the system to make the MTC coming in over the midi cable the master. It will show on the display the capital M as the first letter (FROM THE RIGHT) which means MIDI is the master. So you are not confused, M does not mean master. WHATEVER is the CAPITAL letter is master. M means Midi, or MTC or some such thing..


On careful reflection I believe I now understand the error of my ways. I ASSUMED that you understood that the MIDI button was M. I sorry. I'm a dunce.

 

[pianodano]

Cory ? where did you go ?

 

[sweetbeats]

Cory ? where did you go ?

Heheh...the usual...wipe boogers from face of youngest, go feed horses with middle two, run eldest to store to shop for friend's birthday party, dinner time, cleanup, bedtime fracas...

So later last night I did look at this again. I re-read your post above and I missed a step that may resolve my current issue: the BR-20T will chase Cubase but I can't get them to lock (i.e. the LOCK light doesn't light up on the Microlynx keyboard above the 'B' machine which is what I'm using because the LOCK LED for the 'A' machine is out and in the display it says ">W" below the 'b' machine in the group, rather than ">L" which would indicate that the machine is in lock mode).

I think what I didn't do, now that I'm re-reading your instructions is I didn't include "t" in the group (timecode). I don't quite understand why that is necessary yet but you said to do it and I didn't. I was thinking I just needed MIDI and machine B in the group but maybe that is why the BR-20T is in "WILD" mode (as indicated by the ">W" status indicator in the display) which means that the Microlynx thinks the BR-20T is referencing its internal generator, not the Microlynx control. Okay, but the Tascam thinks its locked to the Microlynx because the control reference LED on the BR-20T control surface (i.e. "VARI INT EXT") is lit up for "EXT", and the BR-20T is following the transport commands in Cubase...its chasing, its just not locking.

So right now my group display on the Microlynx reads "b M*" Heheh..."He said 'BM'." I can't figure out how to get the "M" to be first but I guess that doesn't matter as long as it is capitalized with the "*" next to it...but it should read "b t M*" right? Or something like that...

Also a little frustrated because whenever I've powered the whole system down including the Microlynx, computer and BR-20T, the next time I start it up the only lights that light up on the Microlynx Sytem Unit are the power "ON" indicator, and the KEYBOARD DATA LED which is flashing...I have to reset the Microlynx system (i.e. CLR + SETUP), power the Microlynx off and then back on again and then I get the standard startup initialization procedure.

Good news is that at least I was able to easily figure out how to transmit MTC out of Cubase through my Yamaha i88x MIDI port and that all works swell. When I SOLO MIDI on the Microlynx and hit PLAY in the Cubase transport timcode ticks away. Same if I SOLO transport B (the BR-20T). I can put that in EDIT even and rock the reels around and timecode follows nicely so I know the Microlynx is getting that information it needs to lock these two together, I just don't have the Microlynx setup quite right yet to act on the code it is receiving I guess.

One last question...when the internal generator on the Microlynx is set to "29.97/30", is that 29.97 non-drop then? I haven't found anything in the manual that states that clearly...that's what it defaulted to so that's what's striped on the tape loaded on the BR-20T but I was thinking that was drop-frame but I'm thinking not now...need to make sure that Cubase is set to the same thing or of course it'll never lock...

 

[pianodano]

Heheh...the usual...wipe boogers from face of youngest, go feed horses with middle two, run eldest to store to shop for friend's birthday party, dinner time, cleanup, bedtime fracas...

LOL. Sounds like my younger days.

So later last night I did look at this again. I re-read your post above and I missed a step that may resolve my current issue: the BR-20T will chase Cubase but I can't get them to lock (i.e. the LOCK light doesn't light up on the Microlynx keyboard above the 'B' machine which is what I'm using because the LOCK LED for the 'A' machine is out and in the display it says ">W" below the 'b' machine in the group, rather than ">L" which would indicate that the machine is in lock mode).

Heck Cory, I never even realized there was a LOCK light for each machine. I do know the green lock light will light when locked . I probably never would have known about the machine light if you hadn't told me. I just always refer to the display and look for the L> under each device/item.

I think what I didn't do, now that I'm re-reading your instructions is I didn't include "t" in the group (timecode). I don't quite understand why that is necessary yet but you said to do it and I didn't. I was thinking I just needed MIDI and machine B in the group but maybe that is why the BR-20T is in "WILD" mode (as indicated by the ">W" status indicator in the display) which means that the Microlynx thinks the BR-20T is referencing its internal generator, not the Microlynx control. Okay, but the Tascam thinks its locked to the Microlynx because the control reference LED on the BR-20T control surface (i.e. "VARI INT EXT") is lit up for "EXT", and the BR-20T is following the transport commands in Cubase...its chasing, its just not locking.

Well, I always include the "t" for at least two reasons and maybe several more that I have forgotten. As Our vice president stated with his bullet points when giving his health care summation. 1.) it creates the TC to send downstream to my DA-78 array. 2). Because the house TC clock gets it's smpte TC from it there. (A). because it works. and 3). Maybe and most likely because of what you said. I just can't remember. Please understand I have a heck of a lot of stuff to keep up with.

That's odd it's showing the W. Just a thought but did you remember to teach the system where the BR20 was at re TC? After grouping the items in the group, solo the machine and press the play button until the controller is reading the TC coming of tape. then press group-ie (so all other girls want to play along) button.

So right now my group display on the Microlynx reads "b M*" Heheh..."He said 'BM'." I can't figure out how to get the "M" to be first but I guess that doesn't matter as long as it is capitalized with the "*" next to it...but it should read "b t M*" right? Or something like that...

First letter ENTERED is ALWAYS MASTER. . . . . . i think. I just can't remember without starting up the studio and by the time I go down there and do that, I'll forget what I went there for. By the time I get back to the internet PC I'll forget what I studied in the studio. It's hell to get old.

Also a little frustrated because whenever I've powered the whole system down including the Microlynx, computer and BR-20T, the next time I start it up the only lights that light up on the Microlynx Sytem Unit are the power "ON" indicator, and the KEYBOARD DATA LED which is flashing...I have to reset the Microlynx system (i.e. CLR + SETUP), power the Microlynx off and then back on again and then I get the standard startup initialization procedure.

That doesn't sound exactly right. I do remember reading somewhere in the manual that the Microlynx must be powered up last when using Digi stuff but I would'nt think so with Cubase. So it doesn't go through the whole startup on it's own? BTW, there is no way of SAVING the group to my knowledge. I don't think macros will work for that. You must always enter the keystrokes.

Good news is that at least I was able to easily figure out how to transmit MTC out of Cubase through my Yamaha i88x MIDI port and that all works swell. When I SOLO MIDI on the Microlynx and hit PLAY in the Cubase transport timcode ticks away. Same if I SOLO transport B (the BR-20T). I can put that in EDIT even and rock the reels around and timecode follows nicely so I know the Microlynx is getting that information it needs to lock these two together, I just don't have the Microlynx setup quite right yet to act on the code it is receiving I guess.

SO WHAT TRANSPORT SETTING ARE YOU USING FOR THE BR-20. I don't remember that being a menu option. IS IT ?

One last question...when the internal generator on the Microlynx is set to "29.97/30", is that 29.97 non-drop then? I haven't found anything in the manual that states that clearly...that's what it defaulted to so that's what's striped on the tape loaded on the BR-20T but I was thinking that was drop-frame but I'm thinking not now...need to make sure that Cubase is set to the same thing or of course it'll never lock...

Yes. Pretty sure that's what I use in the Lynx and 29.97 nd in the DAW.

 

[pianodano]

OK then. I just started up the studio. When you SOLO the BR-20 on the Microlynx, press the Lynx PLAY button and it starts reading TC coming off tape. does it show the >L on the display ??

 

[sweetbeats]

When you SOLO the BR-20 on the Microlynx, press the Lynx PLAY button and it starts reading TC coming off tape. does it show the L> on the display ??

I was doing some more reading in the interim. and I need to check that...All I was doing when soloing was rocking the reels in EDIT on the BR-20T or dropping the cursor into a new spot in the timeline in Cubase to see that the code position changed on the Microlynx, but now I understand that I need to resolve each machine individually to the Microlynx. Can't test that at the moment but I will a little later.

Heck Cory, I never even realized there was a LOCK light. I probaly never would have known if you hadn't told me. I always refer to the display and look for the L>.

Yeah...I'm getting that now too...the LOCK LED's are superfluous aren't they...I'm gonna move the BR back over to the Transport A spot.

Well, I always include the "t" for at least two reasons and maybe several more that I have forgotten...

Reading again: the manual, if I understand correctly, states that if you select the Microlynx's generator to the group (i.e. "t"), that it includes MIDI. Now whether or not that will place Cubase as the master and reference I don't know (i.e. if the group display showed "T*"). Otherwise it does seem that the reason to include the "t" in the group is so that the Microlynx's timecode generator is resolved to the master reference and I would assume that to be for other devices locking to that code reference in the studio like you have, but maybe not necessary for me.

If properly soloing and locking each machine doesn't help as well as the bit I'm going to type next, I'll try including "t" in the "M* a" group.

NOW...I have a hunch I don't have my timecode references consistent...like I said in my last post, the Microlynx timecode generator defaults to "29.97Hz/30". Why the two frequency references?? WELL...the manual refers to the first number as the "System speed" and the second number as the "generator timecode type" on page 4-5 of the manual. I think then that the BR-20T is striped with 30 non-drop, but I was referencing the 29.97 and Cubase is set to transmit 29.97 non-drop. So my theory is that I'm trying to lock a 30 non drop deck to a 29.97 non-drop DAW. That won't work. So I'll have to test that out.

There is a REF LOCK LED above the jog wheel and to the left which indicates if the Micolynx is able to lock to the reference code (which I have set to MIDI) and that is lit. That's good. That means the Microlynx can understand and is happy with the code reference coming off the DAW but it won't be able to lock the BR-20T to the group if the timecode is a different format so I'll have to try that stuff out.

Learning.

BTW, there is no way of SAVING the group to my knowledge. I don't think macros will work for that. You must always enter the keystrokes.

Ahhhh...so you DO have to setup the group every time you power up. Okay. That's just fine because it literally takes seconds to do and it makes sense to clear that on power down or you could end up chasing (no pun intended) down group settings if you change something during the downtime.

I will also make SURE I bring everything else up first before powering up the Microlynx...

SO WHAT TRANSPORT SETTING ARE YOU USING FOR THE BR-20. I don't remember that being a menu option. IS IT ?

No its not...wish it was though I know it is really just to set the communication protocol and the Microlynx "learns" the dynamic characteristics of each individual machine anyway...I'm using the TSR-8 option...don't know if that is the one to use. No TimeLine Tech Support to call, but I DO know the TSR-8 uses a 37-pin dsub parallel interface for sync like the BR-20T, so, fingers crossed.

-EDIT-

BTW, I'm very greatful for the help, Danny...harkens back to the "old days" (3~4 years ago) on the Tascam Forum when I first got my 58.

Also, I turn 40 this year...I find that I often have to think a bit longer to recall what I was going to say/do. It leaves me more time to look into my wife's eyes whilst I try to remember.

 

[pianodano]

BTW, I'm very greatful for the help, Danny...harkens back to the "old days" (3~4 years ago) on the Tascam Forum when I first got my 58.

Well don't get discouraged. You'll get it figured out. And funny you should mention 58. I am now.

Also, I turn 40 this year...I find that I often have to think a bit longer to recall what I was going to say/do.

40! Wow. That is a great age to be. I bought my first real house at 39. Prior to that I owned a wonderfully beautiful mobile home that I bought when I was 22. It was great, my wife and daughter loved what I built it into and life was great because it was paid for and it took very little money for us to live. We ere on top of the world. I was a live musician for many years - at least from about 16 until the line that I used to sing in the song called Good Time Charlie's Got The Blues, which goes, Everybody's telling me - You're not a kid at 33. . really started getting hard for me to sing without getting all misty eyed. That would have been around 1986 (when I really was about 33) when I stopped perfoming full time so that I could concentrate on providing for my family and recording. I never have been very good at either in the stictest sense, but my wonderful wife puts up with me anyhow and has always wanted me to continue to write, record and perform too and have anything and every thing I desired to make music. From the collection you are amassing, you MUST have a similar wife. Ladies like that are treasure.

My daughter was born just a couple of years after you.

It leaves me more time to look into my wife's eyes whilst I try to remember.

Make sure you really do that (look into her eyes).



Sorry to go off topic. Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

 

[sweetbeats]

Arg!

So I figured how to set the Tascam to "Resolved" mode instead of "Wild" mode, and then when soloing the BR-20T on the Micro Lynx I was able to consistently get it to lock to the Micro Lynx...and it resolves fast, and locks up tight...no subframe drift at all.

I also added the Micro Lynx's timecode generator to the group, so now the group display reads "a t+ M*".

I cannot, however, get the MTC being output from Cubase to resolve when soloed on the Micro Lynx...it drifts no matter what frame rate I set Cubase to.

The result of this is when I return to group mode and hit PLAY in Cubase the Tascam and the Micro lynx generator show they are locked via the ">L" characters in the lower left of the Micro Lynx LCD, but the character below the MIDI member of the group is just ">".

Am I not supposed to see ">L" under the "M*" since that is the system master and reference? I can logically see that being the case, but I thought there was supposed to be a "II" in the upper right of the LCD when a group was fully locked or resolved and of course I don't have that since the MIDI member of the group isn't locked...but maybe it doesn't have to be because its the reference master...

Ugh.

Not ignoring your tangental previous post. Thoroughly enjoyed some of those snapshots of your world.

 

[pianodano]

So I figured how to set the Tascam to "Resolved" mode instead of "Wild" mode, and then when soloing the BR-20T on the Micro Lynx I was able to consistently get it to lock to the Micro Lynx...and it resolves fast, and locks up tight...no subframe drift at all.

I also added the Micro Lynx's timecode generator to the group, so now the group display reads "a t+ M*".

I cannot, however, get the MTC being output from Cubase to resolve when soloed on the Micro Lynx...it drifts no matter what frame rate I set Cubase to.

The result of this is when I return to group mode and hit PLAY in Cubase the Tascam and the Micro lynx generator show they are locked via the ">L" characters in the lower left of the Micro Lynx LCD, but the character below the MIDI member of the group is just ">".

Am I not supposed to see ">L" under the "M*" since that is the system master and reference? I can logically see that being the case, but I thought there was supposed to be a "II" in the upper right of the LCD when a group was fully locked or resolved and of course I don't have that since the MIDI member of the group isn't locked...but maybe it doesn't have to be because its the reference master...

Ugh.

Not ignoring your tangental previous post. Thoroughly enjoyed some of those snapshots of your world.

You will not "lock" midi. Follow along before jumping to conclusions.

It (MIDI)is the master. Remember all those discussions we have had about people trying to varispeed a DAW ? That is the beauty of the Microlynx system. It interpets midi and translates it so all the other animals can participate. You will (I hope) eventually understand what an elegant solution it is for us wierdo fanatical types that insist it be done right.

There is nothing the Microlynx can resolve about the DAW. It (the DAW) is running wild, so to speak.. The Lynx will, however, follow along and RESOLVE the other items to and then pullup or down the other items in the group and keep them "continually" LOCKED to the MASTER by those methods. (ouch)

Sooooooo, LOCK(ed) MEANS: that the system IS KEEPING THE LOWER CASE ITEMS LOCKED as indicated by the "L" TO THE REFERENCE which is, the MASTER which is in your case, MIDI.

RESOLVE means: to VARISPEED to get initially in sync to the same hh:mm:ss:ff + or - offset as the MASTER. Then it has to continually varispeed the capstan(s) to keep the atr(s) (and "t" or the on board smpte tc generator) LOCKED to the same hh:mm:ss:ff + or - the offset to the MASTER , CONTINUALLY -"AS TIME GOES BY".

Phew.

I have pretty much stated that every way I can think of so I hope it will make sense.
Does it make sense ?

RE your other thread on SMPTE. 30 frames is MIDI. 29.97 non drop is pretty close. Why not get out your calulator and see how many frames it would be off in a 3 minute song. That's why the Lynx shows 29.97nd/30. Just make sure the DAW is 29.97nd. I'll tell you why if you ever tell me you have a video to add music to.

After you wrap your head around all of the above techno babble, I'll explain that you really can resolve and LOCK the DAW with the right OPTIONS for the microlynx - BUT YOU DON'T NEED TO.

 

[timkroeger]

Danny, that's exactly how I understood it from the manual and it makes perfect sense to me, but...

...I had problems getting the microlynx to sync on anything other than strict 30 FPS MTC (read: follow my reaper running wild). I checked the error for the machine in question by pressing the button for that transport once. I have setup my microlynx TCG to 29.97Hz/30 that means system speed = 29.97Hz, MTC = 30Hz and my group is "t M*" with MIDI being master and reference. With Reaper emitting 30 FPS MTC I see the error for MIDI (M) build up slowly from somewhere between 0 < x < 1 until it hits 1.0 whereas the "L" appears below the M and the error is reset to 0. Simultaneously the two sync indicators on the right side of the display (II) appear to show that all machines are synced. When I hit play in the DAW the error is always somwhere between 0 and 1. Time for the buildup from 0 to 1 is about 30 seconds (which makes sense for 0.03 Hz difference resulting in a one-frame-drift every 30.33333... seconds). So if I start with an incidental initial error of 0.95, the microlynx almost immediately reaches 1.0 and reports "lock" on M. If I start with an initial error of about 0.5 it takes about 15 seconds until it reaches 1.0 and reports "lock" on M. If I start with an initial error of 0.05, it needs about half a minute to lock to MTC. The error increases because the MIDI machine is "faster" than the system unit.

I tried running the system unit at 30Hz with MTC at 29.97 drop frame by setting the TGC to 30Hz/DF or running it at 30Hz/30. Now I can get a lock with reaper emitting 29.97 ND (non drop) and the system unit's internal speed at 30Hz, but it will take one to 30 seconds to acquire that lock again and this time the error does not increase, but decrease (which makes sense because the system unit is "faster"). I figure you always need to set it according to the configuration of your TCG. That being said I couldn't get the microlynx to lock to the MTC if I chose to emit the system unit's frequency, even if I configured them to be equal like with the 30Hz/30 setting.

So, back to the original TCG setting of 29.97Hz/30: the thing is, when I set Reaper to emit e.g. 29.97DF (drop frame) or ND (non dropping), my MIDI and the mycrolynx are already very much on the same page and the error does not build up. So I never ever acquire a lock or get into the "locked state", which - I think - would be desirable, right?

Cory, I'd say set the TCG to 29.97Hz/30 and emit 30Hz MTC via Cubase. Monitor the error on the stat display by pressing MIDI once while you're in your a t+ M* group and see what it does. Maybe you're just not waiting long enough for the lynx to come to it's senses. I can't comment on the timecode stripping on your tape though.

EDIT: Found out that setting that helps me get "locked" in a later post. It's a MIDI setting called MIDI Resolve. Set it to ACG Servo.

Am I missing something important here? Danny, are you suggesting that we ignore the oh so rewarding "L" and just let the DAW run at 29.97Hz ND like the system unit does? The error on the MIDI stats stays roughly the same and fluctuates only slightly. Is that what you mean by

After you wrap your head around all of the above techno babble, I'll explain that you really can resolve and LOCK the DAW with the right OPTIONS for the microlynx - BUT YOU DON'T NEED TO.

Cory, I don't have the tape setup yet but I think I may be able to fabricate the transport cable soon. I ordered some cheap CDROM audio cables (I think you had some lying around) to salvage the pins and a matching cable so I can modify the stock transport connector. After that I can hook it up and comment on the TC striping. I think it would be best to stripe the tape with whatever you have set the system unit's speed to. So if you're running 29.97 non drop, I think that's what you should stripe. But that is only my assumption as I have not had the opportunity to try and get my hands on this. Just fooling around with MIDI and TCG right now. Baby steps.

Cheers
Tim

 

[pianodano]

Hi Tim,

Wow, it looks like you have spent a great deal of time too, trying to sync reliably. What a nightmare huh ?

I can not say for certain that I have never seen a continuious "L" (locked state) on the master "Midi" but I sure cannot ever remember having seen it. So are you saying that you can repeatedly see a steady " L" under "M" ?

30fps was the old B&W standard iirc. 29.97 made color fit to the standard. I recommended to Cory that he not use 30 ONLY because if he ever needed to sync his music on the DAW to video, it would be a real hair pulling chore. That is the only reason. As per was told to me by some of the video guys from days of old when I started researching the subject some years back.

Very interesting reading here on the old Digi forum.

http://duc.digidesign.com/archive/index.php/t-3742.html

Back to the Microlynx. The theory is - as I understand it:
If you had the CLOCK OPTION CARD installed it becomes the MASTER, you could then feed the digital clock to the DAW (exactly how in Cory's case, I don't know) but maybe his convertors can lock to external clock.

To get tangental, that card is the reason I bought the unit Cory has. I had been looking for one for some time (the clock option) and finally lucked up a Microlynx that had it installed. The owner didn't know what it (the Clock option) was for. So I bought the unit, took the card out and kept it for a few years and resold it to Cory because he wanted a Microlynx. He was really having trouble getting the Tascam Syncronizer to work.

It is a very high grade clock, was probably expensive as all get out when new and was Digi approved to sync ProFools to.

So anyhow, my original idea was to sync the DM-24 to it, which would have then "synced" the PC because at the time, I was using the TASCAM IF/FW card for the DM. The sytem could then have "L" LOCKED the "M" because "M" was no longer master. The optional CLOCK installed was.

So are you thinking I have the whole theory wrong ? Dang. It wouldn't surpise me a bit if I do.


I do know that I have recorded stereo (2) tracks onto tape comming off the DAW, and then had those same 2 tracks play simultaneously on the DAW and the recorder. I pulled up the faders on both the original stereo tracks and the recorder with both stereo tracks panned hard left and right as per normal. On playback, I'd hear slight phasing as the system was varispeeding the chasing atr. The song was around 4 minutes and 10 seconds. Nothing that you (or I should say I) wouldn't expect when having the exact same source over 2 machines. Kinda of like if you had 2 8 track recorders and were recording a drum kit with 10 mics, 7 on one machine and 3 on the other. Just phasing.

Please let me know on the "L" state for M(idi). I need to read your post a few more times.

Regards,

Danny

 

[timkroeger]

Found some connector assemblies from Molex (C-Grid III connection system) but still no nice hood/shell:

• Crimp housing
• Crimp contact

The only catalog distributor I could find is digikey and I could put together some housings and sockets:

• Digi-Key housing
• Digi-Key socket

The connector scavanging I had planned to do on the cdrom cables didn't work out as the sockets wouldn't fit.

Cheers
Tim

 

[timkroeger]

Hey Danny,

Wow, it looks like you have spent a great deal of time too, trying to sync reliably. What a nightmare huh ?

Yeah I got really interested in the whole subject yesterday with you two going over it. Too bad my cable assembly plans for me didn't work out the way I intended to but I think I'll order the parts from digikey and be up and running in a few days.

I can not say for certain that I have never seen a continuious "L" (locked state) on the master "Midi" but I sure cannot ever remember having seen it. So are you saying that you can repeatedly see a steady " L" under "M" ?

Yes I can definitely repeat the behaviour. The "L" under "M" is steady and does not go away for as long as I let the track play. I can even jump to different locations with reaper and it does not need to resync. The only time I need to let it resync is after I hit stop and then play again.

30fps was the old B&W standard iirc. 29.97 made color fit to the standard. I recommended to Cory that he not use 30 ONLY because if he ever needed to sync his music on the DAW to video, it would be a real hair pulling chore. That is the only reason. As per was told to me by some of the video guys from days of old when I started researching the subject some years back.

Very interesting reading here on the old Digi forum.

http://duc.digidesign.com/archive/index.php/t-3742.html

Back to the Microlynx. The theory is - as I understand it:
If you had the CLOCK OPTION CARD installed it becomes the MASTER, you could then feed the digital clock to the DAW (exactly how in Cory's case, I don't know) but maybe his convertors can lock to external clock.

Yeah, I have the AGC-2 card, too and I thought about using the word clock out of my delta 1010 as a sync reference for the lynx. I'll check if that works (or the other way round with the system unit being the master) but either way I'm limited to 48kHz sampling then. Most of the tracks I did in the past were 96kHz.

To get tangental, that card is the reason I bought the unit Cory has. I had been looking for one for some time (the clock option) and finally lucked up a Microlynx that had it installed. The owner didn't know what it (the Clock option) was for. So I bought the unit, took the card out and kept it for a few years and resold it to Cory because he wanted a Microlynx. He was really having trouble getting the Tascam Syncronizer to work.

It is a very high grade clock, was probably expensive as all get out when new and was Digi approved to sync ProFools to.

So anyhow, my original idea was to sync the DM-24 to it, which would have then "synced" the PC because at the time, I was using the TASCAM IF/FW card for the DM. The sytem could then have "L" LOCKED the "M" because "M" was no longer master. The optional CLOCK installed was.

Hmm, I read about the microlynx syncing the MTC and ACG word clock internally if you set "ACG servo" to "on" (MIDI setup). I did that yesterday when experimenting with the word clock. I didn't change it back BUT I have the word clock disconnected. So I can get the lock with ACG servo set to on. When the setting is off, I can hardly get a lock for M. If I happen to be around 0.00 error wise, The relais in the system unit does same scary clickety clickety shuffle as it locks and unlocks. The "L" and "II" indicators show that, too. Does not sit well with me and feels plain wrong. So, in order to get the desired lock, I have TCG still on "internal fixed" but ACG servo "on" for MIDI. That allows me to have both "L" on "t" and "M". It just needs 1 to 30 seconds to sync, which would be a PITA for overdubs. No word clock connection so far.

I'll try different setups when I have the transport hooked up with maybe TCG as master and wordclock+mtc connections to the DAW, or have the DAW as master and wordclock+mtc coming from the DAW and slaving the TCG and A. We'll see how it goes.

So are you thinking I have the whole theory wrong ? Dang. It wouldn't surpise me a bit if I do.

I don't know. It all made sense to me the way you wrote it. I'm just learning this, so I'm no expert (yet) on the whole syncing stuff I also don't know, if I interpret the locking states correctly with the ACG servo feature turned on. More reading and experimenting to do.

I do know that I have recorded stereo (2) tracks onto tape comming off the DAW, and then had those same 2 tracks play simultaneously on the DAW and the recorder. I pulled up the faders on both the original stereo tracks and the recorder with both stereo tracks panned hard left and right as per normal. On playback, I'd hear slight phasing as the system was varispeeding the chasing atr. The song was around 4 minutes and 10 seconds. Nothing that you (or I should say I) wouldn't expect when having the exact same source over 2 machines. Kinda of like if you had 2 8 track recorders and were recording a drum kit with 10 mics, 7 on one machine and 3 on the other. Just phasing.

I'll do a similar test once I have the tape hooked up. I think just a little bit of phasing would be the expected behaviour or put another way: It would really surprise me, if it didn't occur.

Please let me know on the "L" state for M(idi). I need to read your post a few more times.

Regards,

Danny

Yeah, as I said, I suppose it has to do with the ACG servo setting. Didn't realize that until I was writing this reply and checked my settings again. I knew that I had problems with locking yasterday, too. So I just checked today what I had done different and why it just worked. I was already willing to accept some temperature related explanation because I left it powered on over night

Cheers
Tim

 

[pianodano]

Cory, Tim,

I ran across this page a couple years back. I printed it and kept it. Well worth reading.

http://emusician.com/images/archive/PSBG2003/synchronizers.html

Danny