Tascam TSR-8 > Tascam 58 > DAW sync

[bleachboy]

Hello everybody !

I'd love a little bit of help regarding a little fantasy that I'm chasing (no pun intended...), and I'd love for somebody to say "forget it it'll never work" quickly so I can get on with my life !

I already know how to sync either of these Tascam tape machines to my DAW, via two free software (Timecode Clock to generate SMPTE and LockStep to convert SMPTE to MTC). But I'd like to know if it would be feasible to sync both machines together using that same method ? For example, using Timecode Clock to stripe SMPTE to track 8 of the TSR-8, connect the output of track 8 on the TSR-8 to input 8 on the 58, record the SMPTE that was already striped on the TSR-8 track 8 to the Tascam 58 track 8, then going from output 8 on the 58 back to the DAW via LockStep ? Or is this idea completely absurd and I should get a used MicroLynx for 1500$, if I can even find one ?

EDIT : I've read my post again and it does seem absurd indeed ? If I do that, Lockstep will only follow the SMPTE code printed on the second tape machine, regardless of the first... Maybe the other way around ? First striping track 8 on the Tascam 58, then going from OUT 8 to IN 8 on the TSR-8 (according to the manual "Track 8 is specifically designed to be used with the recordable synchronizing codes used by MIDI as well as the SMPTE time code") and then from OUT 8 on the TSR-8 back to the DAW via LockStep ?

As far as I understand, the two pieces of software I'm using are basically replacing SMPTE to MTC sync boxes like the MIDIman Syncman, is that right ? I have a Syncman III for sale nearby, not sure if if would be of any help to buy it ?

Sorry for the rambling, I'm trying to wrap my head around the whole concept. Since my computer can send SMPTE time code, what prevents me from duplicating that exact SMPTE time code via a Y cable so that it is printed on both tape machines at the same time

It all seems like it could maybe work somehow, but it's very likely that I'm missing a very important piece of the puzzle.

Anyways, thanks a lot for taking the time to read my post !

Cheers

 

[sweetbeats]

The piece you’re missing is one of the tape machines has to be a slave. In a sync array you have one master, and everything else is a slave. Up until now you’ve had one tape machine as a master, and the computer as the slave. If you add a tape machine to the array it has to be a slave. Now here’s where it gets complicated…if one of the tape machines is a slave, as it drifts out of sync, what do you have that will control the transport to pull it back into sync? Every tape machine that is a slave in a sync array must have something monitoring the master and the slave and controlling The slave transport to keep it locked. The tape machine doesn’t do this by itself. That’s what a synchronizer like the Micro Lynx does. You’re missing the synchronizer.

 

[bleachboy]

Thanks Cory ! You've nailed it as usual, that's pretty much what I expected, but I guess I was trying my best to find a solution for this. There's a reason those synchronizers sell for a lot of money these days...I guess I'll console myself with just one tape machine in sync !
Just another question, I'm planning on doing the first recordings (drums for example) on the 58, then mix them down to two tracks that I'd like to send to tracks 1&2 on the TSR-8, and continue the recording of other instruments on the TSR-8. If I stripe both machines' with the same SMPTE on track 8, I suppose they'll both be in sync with my DAW, just not the two tape machines together. Therefore I could theoretically go back and forth between the two tape machines as I go along the recording process, while maintaining both of them and the DAW locked ?

 

[sweetbeats]

No. Remember: there is only one master in a sync array. So in your case, since you have no hardware that can control the tape machine to keep it locked, your master has to be one of your tape machines. But that automatically puts your other tape machine as a slave. And then we’re right back to needing hardware that controls the tape machine to keep it locked as a slave. The existence of simultaneously tracked time code on a track of each tape machine does not keep them locked, nor does it ensure they will stay in sync. All that does is save you time when striping time code. Look at the back of your 58 at the 38-pin ELCO ACCESSORY 1 connector. Now look in your manual at the pinout for that connector…all that stuff…that’s all the stuff the synchronizer you don’t have manages…reads the tach pulse…controls the capstan…engages different transport functions like FFWD and REW…provides lifter control…lots going on. And that’s the case for any tape machine that is a slave in a sync array. Maybe you’ve seen them, but I have a couple videos on YouTube from about 15 years ago that demonstrate the complexity of what occurs with a tape machine in slave mode…this one is focused on locking to a moving target:



This goes into more detail regarding the system, functionality of the Micro Lynx, and the details that drive my opinion that when the sync array involves a digital device such as a computer-based DAW, slaving the tape machine is the preferred method:

 

[bleachboy]

Of course, this makes total sense. Thanks again for taking the time to clarify this whole business for me. I have seen your videos but it's definitely time for a refresh. I just might continue working with only 1 tape machine in sync with the DAW and ping pong tracks back and forth, dumping mixdowns between the two machines as I go along. I would love to get my hands on a MicroLynx but it seems almost impossible to find one complete with all the cabling.

 

[bleachboy]

Hello everyone !

Here's the state of things at the present: I've been using my home-refurbished 58 a lot lately, and while I have also refurbished my TSR-8, it lies dormant at the moment (and that's never a good thing, i.e the dreaded capstan belt slip...). I have the remote for both machines + 2 DX-4D DBX units (one channel doesn't work though...).

I have successfully managed to dip my toes into the world of tape to DAW sync, by the easy and cheapest route which is: striping SPMTE on the tape machine (master) and slaving Pro Tools to it via two free pieces of software ("Timecode Clock" & "Lockstep". One generates SMPTE timecode and the other converts it to Midi Time Code that Pro Tools can read).
I have just bought a Tascam ES-50 synchronizer along with its ES-51 remote + remote cable and I think I'm ready to go down that rabbit hole but I have a couple of questions first:

1: I don't have any of the required accessory cables to go to and from both tape machines and the ES50 sync box. The 58 has a big bulky ACCESSORY plug, the TSR-8 has a smaller ACCESSORY 1 plug and an even smaller ACCESSORY 2 (serial) plug. I'm not quite sure which of these two ACCESSORY plugs I should be using, if there's any benefits of using one over the other. On the TSR-8 manual, it says however that the ACC 1 is the proper way to connect to the ES50, while the ACC 2 should be used to connect to the MIDIIZER so I guess that's a good starting point.
The main thing is that I'd like to know exactly what type of cable I should be using (15-PIN VGA?) and what connectors I should be buying in order to build the cables myself (I do not expect it to be easy).
I have read on another forum that the if I were to be using the ACCESSORY 2 connection the TX/RX leads should be reversed on one end of the cable and that some of the cables absolutely have to be shielded (EXT FREQ S&H).
I need info on the connectors to buy for the 58 ACCESSORY and TSR-8 ACCESS 1 & 2 along with the connectors to buy on the ES50 side (MASTER I/F, SLAVE I/F and what about AUX CMD and SERIAL I/F? It's all very confusing). According to the documentation, the connector for the SLAVE is an Amphenol 57-30500 and for the MASTER it's Amphenol 57-30240, but those seem to be extinct.

2: Between the 58 and the TSR-8, what would be the preferred SLAVE/MASTER? I'd much rather use the 58 as the main machine since it has a separate PB head and more importantly it seems to be more stable with less speed fluctuations than the TSR-8. On the other hand, the TSR-8 being a more "modern" machine it is possible that it would be beneficial in some way or another? I'm completely in the dark here.

3: DAW as MASTER / Tape as SLAVE, or the other way around? Is it even possible to have both options available? I'm aware that if I manage to sync both tape machines together on their own, there's no reason why I shouldn't be able to have Pro Tools read the Time Code from the SMPTE track on whichever machine just like what I've been doing successfully with my 58.

I really wish that the ES50/51 manual had been more detailed as to how to operate the thing, there isn't a lot of practical info on it as far as I can tell. The TSR-8/58 manuals were pretty thorough and easy to follow...

Anyway, thanks a lot for taking the time to read and help.

Cheers

 

[sweetbeats]

…I have the remote for both machines…

Which remote do you have for the 58?

1: I don't have any of the required accessory cables to go to and from both tape machines and the ES50 sync box.

That…sucks.

The 58 has a big bulky ACCESSORY plug, the TSR-8 has a smaller ACCESSORY 1 plug and an even smaller ACCESSORY 2 (serial) plug. I'm not quite sure which of these two ACCESSORY plugs I should be using, if there's any benefits of using one over the other. On the TSR-8 manual, it says however that the ACC 1 is the proper way to connect to the ES50, while the ACC 2 should be used to connect to the MIDIIZER so I guess that's a good starting point.

Yes. You just answered your own question. The ES-50 utilizes parallel signal protocol, and the ACCESSORY 1 connector on the TSR-8 supports parallel protocol. The ACCESSORY 2 connector is serial protocol and will not work with the ES-50.

The main thing is that I'd like to know exactly what type of cable I should be using (15-PIN VGA?) and what connectors I should be buying in order to build the cables myself (I do not expect it to be easy).

I can only speak to the cables that go between the ES-50 and the 58 (slave or master). I don’t have any tech docs or information on the cables that go between the ES-50 and TSR-8. You might be able to get a schematic for the cable from Tascam by calling them. There’s a fair amount of helpful information in another thread from awhile ago:

https://homerecording.com/bbs/threads/tascam-es-50-es-51.288015/page-3#post-4645629

Like I said in that thread, it’s possible the TSR-8 cables are the same, but with the different connectors on the machine end, and since the pinout is in the TSR-8 manual you might be able to cross reference, but I don’t know if there are any other specific differences. The 58 cables, for instance have additional components in them (a diode in the master cable and two diodes and a resistor in the slave cable), so there could be components like that in the TSR-8 cables. Im attaching the schematics for the 58 cables to this post.

As far as the cable type it depends on which cable you are talking about. For the 58 the master cable needs at least 14 conductors and the slave cable 19. The cable is supposed to be shielded. Again, likely the same thing with the TSR-8 cables, but you’d need to cross reference the TSR-8 ACCESSORY 1 connector pinout and hope there’s nothing else to add.

As far as connectors go the 58 ACCESSORY connector is a 38-pin EDAC/ELCO connector. These are not hard to find, the pin housing and hood and the pins. Search on eBay is my recommendation because if you buy the parts new they can be really expensive. The other thing to be aware of is the pins insert into the connector housing. You crimp or solder the pins to the wires and then insert them into the housing. If you mess up and need to move a pin, you need a special extraction tool. Which…is really expensive. And if you get crimping type pins, the crimping tool is specific to the EDAC pins and it is…that’s right, really expensive. In some cases it becomes cheaper to have somebody make the cable for you. It’s worth at least getting an idea from someplace like Redco what the cost would be. They may have even made cables like these before and may have records of the construction, pinning, etc. Anyway, the TSR-8 ACCESSORY 2 connector is a very standard DSUB-37 connector. It’s easy to find these and they are comparatively not expensive…Mouser, Digikey, etc have the connectors and hoods. The master and slave connectors on the ES-50 are a little harder to find, but they are called cinch connectors…50-pin for the slave and 24-pin for the master. These are the same type of connectors one used to find on old printers in the parallel port days…the connector on the printer. And it happens to be 50-pin, which is how I actually made the slave cable I used to have with the 58 and ES-50/51 setup I used to have. So I found a surplus old printer cable and, after verifying it was shielded, lopped the DSUB connector off and installed the ELCO-38 connector in its place according to the schematic. You likely can find these (both the 50-pin and 24-pin type) at Mouser or Digikey.

…and what about AUX CMD and SERIAL I/F? It's all very confusing).

Neither apply to your circumstance.

2: Between the 58 and the TSR-8, what would be the preferred SLAVE/MASTER? I'd much rather use the 58 as the main machine since it has a separate PB head and more importantly it seems to be more stable with less speed fluctuations than the TSR-8. On the other hand, the TSR-8 being a more "modern" machine it is possible that it would be beneficial in some way or another? I'm completely in the dark here.

What you want to prioritize is which machine has the most stable and responsive transport. It has nothing to do with which machine has 2 or 3 heads, etc. how can you tell the TSR-8 is less stable? If you’ve measured that and know that to be true, then that would not be the choice to set as the master machine. I’m not sure which one I’d choose…the 58 is direct drive and generally that’s considered a more stable setup, but you’d have to measure for stability. The other thing to consider is which transport is more responsive and nimble at handling tape…and that’s the one I’d consider as the slave because it’s going to have to do the scrubbing and hunting to sync up and lock when you FFWD or REW. I used to have a BR-20T, which is of the late generation machines like your TSR-8. I don’t know if the servo system between those two machines is the same or similar, but it was quick and gentle with seeking, scrubbing and locking up. So in your case maybe the 58 with its direct drive capstan makes for a good master and the TSR-8 with its later generation servo tension system may make for the better slave. That’s probably where I lean if I was in your shoes. The 58 handles tape nicely too, but I’m not sure the omega tape path is as sure-footed with the demands of scrubbing. I’m just speaking from my experience using the BR-20T (same transport design as the TSR-8) and the 58.

3: DAW as MASTER / Tape as SLAVE, or the other way around? Is it even possible to have both options available? I'm aware that if I manage to sync both tape machines together on their own, there's no reason why I shouldn't be able to have Pro Tools read the Time Code from the SMPTE track on whichever machine just like what I've been doing successfully with my 58.

There is a debate that will never end about what’s better: A. DAW as master or B. It doesn’t matter. I am staunchly in the A category. Both are fine, but there is variation in how the DAW manages to stay locked if it’s the slave, like how it deals with the minor speed fluctuations of the master tape machine. In some cases it drops samples or adds samples to your digital audio…that’s how it speeds up and slows down…or in the case of at least older versions of Cubase the manual calls this out (in other words Steinberg didn’t support altering the digital audio), and basically says if you sync to external timecode and the source is a transport with variance in speed like an analog tape machine, it uses the timecode for location purposes only. Once you start playing from a synchronized point the DAW “freewheels” from there onward and actually isn’t locked to tape. No way you say, but it’s right there in the manual for Cubase 4…which is legacy software, but regardless that’s the stand Steinberg took to maintain the integrity of the digital audio. And I agree. Which is why setting the DAW as master makes more sense to me. Maintain the integrity of the audio, and slave the tape machine to a very stable source. In your case though you can’t slave both tape machines to the DAW. The ES-50 only manages one master and one slave, and if you want to bring the DAW into the picture it has to be slave via the MASTER TC LOOP output. If you want to have two tape machines and the DAW and have the DAW as master you need something like a Timeline Micro Lynx. It can handle up to three tape machines (if you have the optional third machine card), and it talks MIDI. So you have the computer connected via MIDI and then the two tape machines, and then you configure which element is master.

I really wish that the ES50/51 manual had been more detailed as to how to operate the thing, there isn't a lot of practical info on it as far as I can tell. The TSR-8/58 manuals were pretty thorough and easy to follow...

Yeah the ES-50 was truly a professional product developed mainly with the video and film production industry in mind, and people in that realm were trained to use such things…like you and I go “how does this thing work?”, and those people understand the terminology and know what to look for, so the manual appears written more for people that just need to know how to access the stuff they know they are looking for or how to execute the standard procedures. But, again, read that thread I posted above at least from post #41 onward…there’s some helpful information in there for how to use the ES-50 with the DAW as master, information I wish I’d had when I was trying to do just that, and failed.

 

[bleachboy]

Cory, as usual you're a goldmine!

My remote for the 58 is the "basic" model, RC-50.
Thank you so much for the info about the specific connectors. So I gather what I need is:

- 1x 38-pin EDAC ELCO connector (male) + housing and pins for the 58
such as this one? https://www.mouser.fr/ProductDetail...SK8C7HuR7ZFvP8_SIdK2tJnzvxP06VkacG0Oesnpw8k4o
- 1x DSUB 37 + housing for the TSR8
- 1x cinch 50-pin for the ES50 slave
- 1x cinch 24-pin for the ES50 master

There's a big and reputable electronic parts supply shop/warehouse not far from where I live, I might ask them if they are willing to build the cables for me. They might also have the necessary connectors, that could save me a couple of headaches.

As far as which machine is better for master/slave, I was thinking the same thing: 58 master and TSR8 slave. I have not made any empirical tests but each time I've taken some digital recordings out of Pro Tools to print them via the TSR8 and back into Pro Tools, even when I align the starting point of the audio files there's always some (minor) tape speed fluctuations after a while. I have not noticed that with the 58 however, its speed seems to be rock solid. Indeed the TSR8 transport seems a to be little smoother overall. In any case, the heads on the 58 are in slightly better shape than the TSR8 so it seems logical to use it as the master, and slaving the TSR8 in case I need more tracks.

I absolutely get your point about keeping the integrity of the audio intact (I think you made a video on youtube about that particular subject). Its a very interesting point and I would not have thought about it...
Having both tape machines synced + DAW as master was my original idea, but seeing how impossible it is to find a TimeLine Micro Lynx I've given up on the idea. When I saw the local ad for the ES50/ES51 I figured that would be enough to get me started on the sync thing anyway.
It's a big enough can of worms!

One thing still isn't quite clear though: if I were to use only 1 tape machine with the DAW as master, the only thing I would have to to is send the timecode from the DAW to the TC Master XLR port on the ES50 and whichever tape machine as a slave, right?

Anyway, first things first, I have to get those cables and connectors. I'm afraid I've bit more that I can chew, that ES50 was sort of an impulse buy...we'll see how this goes!

Thanks so much, again! I willl update when there's some progress made.

 

[sweetbeats]

My remote for the 58 is the "basic" model, RC-50.

Okay. That was just pure curiosity on my part…wondered if you were one of the few that have the full-function RC-51 remote.

So I gather what I need is:

- 1x 38-pin EDAC ELCO connector (male) + housing and pins for the 58

such as this one? https://www.mouser.fr/ProductDetail...SK8C7HuR7ZFvP8_SIdK2tJnzvxP06VkacG0Oesnpw8k4o

- 1x DSUB 37 + housing for the TSR8

- 1x cinch 50-pin for the ES50 slave

- 1x cinch 24-pin for the ES50 master

That looks about right, but…

1. just a terminology thing that might help things from getting muddled, “housing” refers to the block that holds the pins, and the term you mean when you say “housing” is “hood”.
2. The ELCO/EDAC pins come in solder lug, PC pin, multiple wire-wrap type pins, and crimp style, and they all have different part numbers. You can get a good amount of information if you search the web for ELCO or EDAC 516 series. That’s what this stuff is. You should be able to find a reference document that shows the part numbers and then you can search by part number. And I really do encourage you to search places like eBay, even including searching for “516 (ELCO, EDAC)”. Sometimes you can find a complete and even new assembly with housing, pins and hood, at a substantial savings.
3. I suspect you know this already, but I want to include here just so it’s not missed…you’ll need hoods for the Cinch connectors, and be mindful there are male and female types and I can’t recall which you need for the ES-50.

There's a big and reputable electronic parts supply shop/warehouse not far from where I live, I might ask them if they are willing to build the cables for me. They might also have the necessary connectors, that could save me a couple of headaches.

That sounds like a good plan, but remember you’ve got homework to do first since you don’t have the schematic for the TSR-8 slave cable. And I still encourage you to check with Redco, since they may have built these things before and may have access to the schematic or notes as to the proper build. I have no idea what the correct pinning is from the DSUB-37 connector to the Cinch connector. Again, some correlations can be drawn comparing the TSR-8 and 58 ACCESSORY connectors, and maybe some assumptions drawn using the schematic for the 58 cable, but I don’t know for sure and it should be verified. If there *are* differences, damage could result from doing it wrong.

As far as which machine is better for master/slave, I was thinking the same thing: 58 master and TSR8 slave. I have not made any empirical tests but each time I've taken some digital recordings out of Pro Tools to print them via the TSR8 and back into Pro Tools, even when I align the starting point of the audio files there's always some (minor) tape speed fluctuations after a while…

I forget…have you replaced the capstan belt on the TSR-8? You should not have consistent issues where it drifts like that. There can be some, especially if you dump something to the DAW when the tape machine is not properly warmed up, and then, later, do the same thing on the same project after it’s warmed up. But I wonder if your capstan belt is slipping, and if it is then the machine is going to be working overtime to stay locked as the slave machine because the machine won’t respond correctly to the directions being sent from the ES-50.

Having both tape machines synced + DAW as master was my original idea, but seeing how impossible it is to find a TimeLine Micro Lynx I've given up on the idea. When I saw the local ad for the ES50/ES51 I figured that would be enough to get me started on the sync thing anyway.

It's a big enough can of worms!

Indeed it is.

Yeah, the Micro Lynx was amazing. And the ES-50 can’t do all the same things, and it’s less intuitive to setup, but the ES-50 is also a really solid build, and a professional tool all the way. And at least it will sync your tape machines and will also at least slave at least one machine to the DAW. And maybe that’s a way you can go too…fill 7 tracks, dump them, move to a new section of tape, input the offset between the original start and the new position, fill seven more tracks, dump them, rinse and repeat. You can fill a project in the DAW 7 tracks at a time with all the tracks lined up in sync in the DAW while still preserving all the tracks natively on the tape. Depending on the length of the song, it could be like a 7, 14, 21, 28-track tape machine dumped to digital for mixing and post while being able to archive all the raw analog tracks, just parsed across the reel of tape. Or you could do the CLASP thing using the 58 (because it has three heads), and track and dump in real time to the DAW. Regardless if you slave a machine to the DAW I would definitely use the 58…the record and reproduce amps have a lot to do with the sound of a tape machine, and the the 58 circuit design is derivative of the 85-16, which was a relatively professional build…a stark departure from anything else they’d done…it is NOT a garden variety signal path like the TSR-8. The TSR-8 is a great package, but the signal path is garden-variety whereas the 58 uses a servo amp design with very few capacitors in the signal path and has higher headroom because the audio power rails are +/-15V vs +/-12V on the TSR-8. It’s a no-brainer.

One thing still isn't quite clear though: if I were to use only 1 tape machine with the DAW as master, the only thing I would have to to is send the timecode from the DAW to the TC Master XLR port on the ES50 and whichever tape machine as a slave, right?

Correct. This is a “code-only master” setup. And this is where I point you to that thread I linked earlier, because in that thread a forum member details how they were able to succeed where I failed in getting the ES-50 to complete the setup process with a code-only master that’s not a tape machine (the DAW), and get it to work without the tape machine going into a runaway state when the timeline position is changed in the DAW. I think I have a YouTube video on my channel about my plight, but what the manual isn’t clear on is, during the setup process, apparently both transports are supposed to be rolling (DAW and tape machine in this case). So read that if you haven’t.

You might also think about picking up one of these…I’ve never seen this before, but apparently there was a supplemental manual for the ES-50. Maybe it goes into more instruction on the operation of the unit like you were noting is missing in the primary manual. I can’t verify that…but thought I’d share since I ran across it after we started this recent conversation:

https://ebay.us/m/7NVncz

 

[bleachboy]

1. just a terminology thing that might help things from getting muddled, “housing” refers to the block that holds the pins, and the term you mean when you say “housing” is “hood”.
2. The ELCO/EDAC pins come in solder lug, PC pin, multiple wire-wrap type pins, and crimp style, and they all have different part numbers. You can get a good amount of information if you search the web for ELCO or EDAC 516 series. That’s what this stuff is. You should be able to find a reference document that shows the part numbers and then you can search by part number. And I really do encourage you to search places like eBay, even including searching for “516 (ELCO, EDAC)”. Sometimes you can find a complete and even new assembly with housing, pins and hood, at a substantial savings.
3. I suspect you know this already, but I want to include here just so it’s not missed…you’ll need hoods for the Cinch connectors, and be mindful there are male and female types and I can’t recall which you need for the ES-50.

1. Thanks for clarifying that!
2. I have found an ad for a complete, new old stock EDAC 516 for sale in France (where I live, that's why Redco isn't an option...) at a very reasonable price & shipping but it is different from the others I've seen (mostly crimp style pins), are the ones on the picture the solder type pins? If so that's great news and I'm probably going to jump on it.

3. I think the Cinch connectors are female on the ES-50 side, I'll receive the package for the ES50/51 in a couple of days anyway.

That sounds like a good plan, but remember you’ve got homework to do first since you don’t have the schematic for the TSR-8 slave cable. And I still encourage you to check with Redco, since they may have built these things before and may have access to the schematic or notes as to the proper build. I have no idea what the correct pinning is from the DSUB-37 connector to the Cinch connector. Again, some correlations can be drawn comparing the TSR-8 and 58 ACCESSORY connectors, and maybe some assumptions drawn using the schematic for the 58 cable, but I don’t know for sure and it should be verified. If there *are* differences, damage could result from doing it wrong.

I do have the documentation (attached) for most of the various wirings of the ES-50 cables, both for MASTER & SLAVE applications. While the doc doesn't show the wiring for the TSR-8 specifically, it does show a wiring diagram for Cinch 50-pin to D SUB37 Tascam MRS-16 ACCESSORY 1. With a little luck the wiring should be similar to the TSR-8. I'll triple-check, of course...

I forget…have you replaced the capstan belt on the TSR-8? You should not have consistent issues where it drifts like that. There can be some, especially if you dump something to the DAW when the tape machine is not properly warmed up, and then, later, do the same thing on the same project after it’s warmed up. But I wonder if your capstan belt is slipping, and if it is then the machine is going to be working overtime to stay locked as the slave machine because the machine won’t respond correctly to the directions being sent from the ES-50.

Yes I have bought a couple new belts for it but since the machine didn't get used for a couple of years I seem to have lost track of which belts were new and which were not...But since I've taken the thing apart earlier this year for calibration etc, it does seem to run fine.
I was wondering if maybe the fact that because it's a 2-head machine I had to constantly rewind and play the recording back to dump to Pro Tools and that's where the little discrepancies in speed came from. When I was using the 58 to print digital tracks on it and then back into Pro Tools, I did it "simultaneously", using the REPRO out of the 58. When aligned back with the original digital tracks, the tape tracks synced perfectly and did not drift at all, I could use a mix of digital & tape tracks together without time or phase issues, even with drum tracks!

Yeah, the Micro Lynx was amazing. And the ES-50 can’t do all the same things, and it’s less intuitive to setup, but the ES-50 is also a really solid build, and a professional tool all the way. And at least it will sync your tape machines and will also at least slave at least one machine to the DAW. And maybe that’s a way you can go too…fill 7 tracks, dump them, move to a new section of tape, input the offset between the original start and the new position, fill seven more tracks, dump them, rinse and repeat. You can fill a project in the DAW 7 tracks at a time with all the tracks lined up in sync in the DAW while still preserving all the tracks natively on the tape. Depending on the length of the song, it could be like a 7, 14, 21, 28-track tape machine dumped to digital for mixing and post while being able to archive all the raw analog tracks, just parsed across the reel of tape. Or you could do the CLASP thing using the 58 (because it has three heads), and track and dump in real time to the DAW. Regardless if you slave a machine to the DAW I would definitely use the 58…the record and reproduce amps have a lot to do with the sound of a tape machine, and the the 58 circuit design is derivative of the 85-16, which was a relatively professional build…a stark departure from anything else they’d done…it is NOT a garden variety signal path like the TSR-8. The TSR-8 is a great package, but the signal path is garden-variety whereas the 58 uses a servo amp design with very few capacitors in the signal path and has higher headroom because the audio power rails are +/-15V vs +/-12V on the TSR-8. It’s a no-brainer.

Most definitely! This is what I've been doing lately and it works like a charm. The whole ES50 sync thing has been on the back of my mind mainly because I have the TSR-8 lying around not being used, and that's a shame, I do like its simplicity. And really it was the first big electronic/mechanical restoration of any kind that I'd ever done and the fact that I've been able to go from a near-dead machine to a solid working tool is really satisfying, I'm sure you can relate!

Correct. This is a “code-only master” setup. And this is where I point you to that thread I linked earlier, because in that thread a forum member details how they were able to succeed where I failed in getting the ES-50 to complete the setup process with a code-only master that’s not a tape machine (the DAW), and get it to work without the tape machine going into a runaway state when the timeline position is changed in the DAW. I think I have a YouTube video on my channel about my plight, but what the manual isn’t clear on is, during the setup process, apparently both transports are supposed to be rolling (DAW and tape machine in this case). So read that if you haven’t.

Yes I have looked at that thread many times, that's a good tip.
I'm not saying that I'm going to go in that direction, but assuming I'd like to use the ES50 both with 58 MASTER > TSR-8 SLAVE and DAW MASTER > 58 SLAVE alternatively depending on the context of what I want to achieve, I'd have to build two EDAC ACC connectors for the 58 1 for MASTER and the other for SLAVE, that goes without saying but important to keep in mind (I'm making a mental note here).

You might also think about picking up one of these…I’ve never seen this before, but apparently there was a supplemental manual for the ES-50. Maybe it goes into more instruction on the operation of the unit like you were noting is missing in the primary manual. I can’t verify that…but thought I’d share since I ran across it after we started this recent conversation

I do have this document and haven't had a good look at it yet, but it does seem to offer important additional information. I also have attached it to this post in case anyone else needs it.

 

[bleachboy]

Oops, the connector that I've seen for sale is the female version and I need the male connector unfortunately...

 

[sweetbeats]

Oops, the connector that I've seen for sale is the female version and I need the male connector unfortunately...

Yes…there’s that. Also the terminals on that one aren’t the solder lug type, which look like a blade with an eyelet in it to loop the wire tail through and then solder…those are one of the three wire-wrap type terminals. Which you can totally solder wires to, it’s just a little more fiddley because you have to kind of wrap the wire around it a little to get it to stay put before you solder. So if you find another like that it’s not a deal breaker.

 

[sweetbeats]

1. Thanks for clarifying that!
2. I have found an ad for a complete, new old stock EDAC 516 for sale in France (where I live, that's why Redco isn't an option...) at a very reasonable price & shipping but it is different from the others I've seen (mostly crimp style pins), are the ones on the picture the solder type pins? If so that's great news and I'm probably going to jump on it.

View attachment 152569

3. I think the Cinch connectors are female on the ES-50 side, I'll receive the package for the ES50/51 in a couple of days anyway.



I do have the documentation (attached) for most of the various wirings of the ES-50 cables, both for MASTER & SLAVE applications. While the doc doesn't show the wiring for the TSR-8 specifically, it does show a wiring diagram for Cinch 50-pin to D SUB37 Tascam MRS-16 ACCESSORY 1. With a little luck the wiring should be similar to the TSR-8. I'll triple-check, of course...



Yes I have bought a couple new belts for it but since the machine didn't get used for a couple of years I seem to have lost track of which belts were new and which were not...But since I've taken the thing apart earlier this year for calibration etc, it does seem to run fine.
I was wondering if maybe the fact that because it's a 2-head machine I had to constantly rewind and play the recording back to dump to Pro Tools and that's where the little discrepancies in speed came from. When I was using the 58 to print digital tracks on it and then back into Pro Tools, I did it "simultaneously", using the REPRO out of the 58. When aligned back with the original digital tracks, the tape tracks synced perfectly and did not drift at all, I could use a mix of digital & tape tracks together without time or phase issues, even with drum tracks!



Most definitely! This is what I've been doing lately and it works like a charm. The whole ES50 sync thing has been on the back of my mind mainly because I have the TSR-8 lying around not being used, and that's a shame, I do like its simplicity. And really it was the first big electronic/mechanical restoration of any kind that I'd ever done and the fact that I've been able to go from a near-dead machine to a solid working tool is really satisfying, I'm sure you can relate!



Yes I have looked at that thread many times, that's a good tip.
I'm not saying that I'm going to go in that direction, but assuming I'd like to use the ES50 both with 58 MASTER > TSR-8 SLAVE and DAW MASTER > 58 SLAVE alternatively depending on the context of what I want to achieve, I'd have to build two EDAC ACC connectors for the 58 1 for MASTER and the other for SLAVE, that goes without saying but important to keep in mind (I'm making a mental note here).



I do have this document and haven't had a good look at it yet, but it does seem to offer important additional information. I also have attached it to this post in case anyone else needs it.

Dude! Thanks so much for attaching those documents…that’s the supplemental manual I linked that’s selling on eBay. So yes that has some helpful additional operations instructions. That’s great.

AND…

My cautious assumptions were correct…we totally could have reverse-engineered a cable schematic for the TSR-8 cables using the DSUB-37 pinout in the TSR-8 manual, and comparing to the cable schematics for the 58 to ES-50 cables, BUT…no need…I’m essentially confident you can just use the MSR16 cable schematics for the TSR-8. Also documents I didn’t have that I’m glad to now have so I can help and share with others in your position. But I think you’ve got what you need except to gather connectors and cabling, and you’ll ultimately be able to find what you need…I have to say this part is a little easier with the ES-50 compared to the Micro Lynx, because the connectors for the Micro Lynx system unit are REALLY hard to find.

And regarding your thoughts on why the drift with the TSR-8, you might be right…lots of shuttling can cause issues, and more or less depending on the machine and the condition of the transport and setup.

 

[bleachboy]

You're very welcome regarding the extra docs, they were pretty hard to find but I'm glad they're now available to the community. As a matter of fact, I've just noticed there is "TSR-8" handwritten next to the schematics for the MSR16 SLAVE to ES50 so I think we're good to go!

Here's where I'm at for now for the TSR-8 SLAVE cable: either I buy the connector and build the cable from scratch: https://asset.conrad.com/media10/ad...0314-fiche-centronics-male-50-cr-a-5750-m.pdf
+ https://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B0B64WJ3Z4/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A2C0TKU0Z3C3DN&psc=1this D-SUB 37 comes pre-wired on one side, that's going to give me a couple extra hours of spare time!

For the ES-50 side, as you pointed out there are a lot of old printer cables with 50-pin Centronics male connectors for sale, very cheap: https://www.leboncoin.fr/ad/accessoires_informatique/3169349418

With a couple of those, I could also make a SLAVE cable for the 58 if need be (I might even have those cables at my parents' place, I'm pretty sure they're around somewhere). This extra cable might come in handy: in a 14-track scenario the 58 could be the MASTER and the TSR-8 the SLAVE, and in a 7 track "code-only master" scenario the 58 would be SLAVED to the DAW, with just a change of cable.

As for the 58 side, here's the 24-pin Amphenol https://www.leboncoin.fr/ad/bricolage/3109706128, cheap!
And the EDAC 38 https://www.canford.fr/Products/47-382_EDAC-38MC-gris + hood https://www.canford.fr/Products/47-389_EDAC-38-CORPS-EN-METAL

Now I just have to buy the correct cable for the EDAC 58 ACCESSORY to 24pin Centronics ES50 MASTER, I have a wire variety of leftover multipair audio cables in my studio but I'm not sure if this is applicable.

And finally those EDAC pins. This one is the one we previously talked about, the wrap-around thingy: https://www.canford.fr/Products/20107/47-010_EDAC-CONTACT-CI-pack-de-100#Image
Or the classic crimp-style: https://www.canford.fr/Products/20107/47-004_EDAC-CONTACT-A-SERTIR-pack-de-10
Both seem to have their pros and cons regarding ease of installation. I'm not quite sure which ones to buy TBH. The crimp-style comes in 10-pack or 100-pack as opposed to the wraparound which only comes in 100-pack...

 

[sweetbeats]

Here's where I'm at for now for the TSR-8 SLAVE cable: either I buy the connector and build the cable from scratch: https://asset.conrad.com/media10/ad...0314-fiche-centronics-male-50-cr-a-5750-m.pdf

+ https://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B0B64WJ3Z4/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A2C0TKU0Z3C3DN&psc=1this D-SUB 37 comes pre-wired on one side, that's going to give me a couple extra hours of spare time!

The only thing about the pre-fab DSUB-37 assembly is I can’t tell if it’s shielded. If it is then I’d lean that direction because the Centronics connectors are going to be easier to solder up compared to the DSUB connectors. But the schematic specifically calls out the cable shield which terminates at each end, so that needs to be part of the build.

For the ES-50 side, as you pointed out there are a lot of old printer cables with 50-pin Centronics male connectors for sale, very cheap: https://www.leboncoin.fr/ad/accessoires_informatique/3169349418

With a couple of those, I could also make a SLAVE cable for the 58 if need be (I might even have those cables at my parents' place, I'm pretty sure they're around somewhere)...

Here again, make sure the cable is shielded. And I don’t mean foil-shielded. Foil-shielded with a bare drain wire can work, but you don’t usually find that in a data cable. So by “shield” I’m talking about braided wire shield. The old printer cables are cheap so if you can’t verify if it’s shielded before purchase, it’s not unreasonable to purchase more than one from different sources and just sacrifice them…cut off the non-Centronics end and have a look and see if it is shielded. This doesn’t help with the master cable, since it needs the 24-pin Centronics connector, but you can still use the cable…it doesn’t matter that there will be a bunch of extra conductors.

As for the 58 side, here's the 24-pin Amphenol https://www.leboncoin.fr/ad/bricolage/3109706128, cheap!

And the EDAC 38 https://www.canford.fr/Products/47-382_EDAC-38MC-gris + hood https://www.canford.fr/Products/47-389_EDAC-38-CORPS-EN-METAL

That all looks good.

Now I just have to buy the correct cable for the EDAC 58 ACCESSORY to 24pin Centronics ES50 MASTER, I have a wire variety of leftover multipair audio cables in my studio but I'm not sure if this is applicable.

You technically could use audio multipair, but it’s not ideal…a band-aid…and it’s not common to find audio multipair with braided shield. Again, you can just use the same printer cable…doesn’t matter if there are a bunch of unused conductors.

And finally those EDAC pins. This one is the one we previously talked about, the wrap-around thingy: https://www.canford.fr/Products/20107/47-010_EDAC-CONTACT-CI-pack-de-100#Image

Or the classic crimp-style: https://www.canford.fr/Products/20107/47-004_EDAC-CONTACT-A-SERTIR-pack-de-10

Both seem to have their pros and cons regarding ease of installation. I'm not quite sure which ones to buy TBH. The crimp-style comes in 10-pack or 100-pack as opposed to the wraparound which only comes in 100-pack...

I need to help get you on track here. Neither of those are what you are looking for. The crimp style require a dedicated special EDAC crimping tool that costs over $200USD…part number 516-280-201. This makes no sense for you…it makes more sense if you have a lot of connections to make. I have 6 96-point TT patchbays with E3 EDAC terminations in the backplane. That’s over 1,700 terminations. Needless to say I bought the tool. If you try to crimp with the wrong tool, you risk either not making a solid crimp, or damaging the strands, and you have to end up soldering anyway. And the wire wrap…wire wrap is a special termination that is designed for solid core wire, not stranded. So trying to solder stranded wire to a wire wrap terminal is tedious. It can be done and this is an option for you, but only if you found a really cheap deal on a complete housing, hood and pins but the pins were wire wrap type. You want the solder lug type. You should be able to get them from Digikey or Mouser…I believe they both have international distribution. Here are the correct pins from Digikey. If you can’t get them in your locality from Digikey I can find them from Mouser…but here’s what you need:

https://www.digikey.com/en/products...WuKzzKhvQSkPsTlQFWmRThcW-FwhWLWhoCW60QAvD_BwE

 

[bleachboy]

I’ve just bought a Centronics 50-pin male to 50-pin male for 2 bucks. It’s 2 meters long so if the cable is shielded I’ll be able to build two different cables with it, one for the DSUB37 and the other for the EDAC. I’ve also bought a « regular » DSUB 37 connector and housing instead of the pre-wired one. I’ve also bought 50 of the solder-type pins you mentioned.

 

[bleachboy]

So I’ve received everything to start building the cables. This old SCSI looks shielded to me, can you confirm ?

Also, I was wondering if there was some sort of standard for the color coding of the connectors / cable connections ? Or do I have to test them all individually with my meter ? I have not found any information on the internet.

 

[sweetbeats]

That’s foil shield. It could work if there’s a bare drain wire in there too. Foil shield isn’t as effective as braided shield, and you have to have some way of terminating the shield at both ends at the connector…impossible to do with foil…possible if there’s a bare wire in there too that is in contact with the shield.

The only color coding standard is the one they use for color bands on electronic components…

So you’ve got 0-9 and then often in wiring it starts over at 10 with a solid color with another color stripe, but it really doesn’t matter…or there will be a bunch of oddball colors. Are there twisted pairs or are all the conductors straight?

 

[bleachboy]

Thanks ! All the conductors are straight, if I'm not mistaken.
There seems to be a drain wire or at least a bunch of "uncovered" wires. When I snapped one of the connectors that wire was soldered to the metal connector itself.

 

[sweetbeats]

Perfect. Yeah I think you’re good to go. Use that bare “drain” wire for where the schematic shows to terminate the shield at each end if that makes sense.