Tascam BR-20T Story...

Yep. That's is exactly where it is at. 6-18. Thank you.

I won't have the DA-78 drum tracks back for a few days so I really can't try the new configuration on my complete system to make sure that it is fail safe right now. Don't want to change anything on the mixer until a I can do final mix on the tune I am working on right now.
But so far "t" and "a"+ are staying locked to "M" using VSO mode.

Fwiw, My brother records those drum tracks on about 10 to 14 tracks on a pair of DA machines. I send him tapes that were locked to the system that I record a stereo bed on and he records the drums and sends them back. I then put them in my machines locked to the system and and transfer them either to tape or the DAW depending on edit requirements.

I am using the 58 transport on the menu, which works fine. You are lucky in that I see the ATR60 as a menu option.

Cory, there is definitely a jog speed control in the menus. Mine is set to 5.
Also I think you have 2 jog speed choices when going into jog mode. Jog and shuttle. Also see page 8-16 - 17. Other than doing a lineup to locate position when determining needed offsets, what would you use that for ? Frame resolution is really rocky and a bit to hard on the transport for me to make much use of other than rough lineups.
 
Last edited:
Thanks so much, gents, for taking the time to mess around with this. Just got back from church...maybe have a go at it again this afternoon setting the TCG to VSO Variable. Logically that makes a great deal of sense...that is telling the Micro Lynx clock to freewheel which is what we want in this case so that it is not fighting with the MTC input.

BTW, the solution to the video issue is if you are using a DAW that does video also...Cubase does, and so if the video production is occuring inside the reference source then it should work. I have no plans to utilize video but who knows.

Tim, I either forgot or didn't know that you had an ATR60-16. Lucky stiff. That is a cool combo with the M-3500. ;)
 
Tim,

I have got a news flash for you. After working with the system in both settings, VSO and Internal, I now have a sneeky suspicion we have just shifted the subframe error from one location to another. Under VSO, yeah it's true that you'll get a imediate lock "L" on midi but now it's taking around 10 seconds to get a lock on machine "a" the MS-16. It will loose the "L" on machine a few times and finally settle down. This is the exact same behavior as midi but just in a different place. Hmm.

What I'm wondering is this. The system, when trying to lock to midi in its INTERNAL mode pulls down everything else imperceptibly. You can't tell that it is happening on the tape recorder and those darn DA-78's are finicky as all get out too and they play along fine using internal.

Otoh, with the system in VSO mode it is unable to keep the atr locked and is going in and out of lock a couple times. I wonder just how much it is varispeeding the capstan trying to get it to a resolved state.

I am sort of wondering if we are trying to solve a problem we didn't even have.


I haven't ever had any trouble using it the previous way and I suspect the relays are doing the exact same thing in VSO and I just can't hear it with the machine noise in the room.

Does the above make any sense to you guys ?
 
Hey,

pianodano said:
Tim,

I have got a news flash for you. After working with the system in both settings, VSO and Internal, I now have a sneeky suspicion we have just shifted the subframe error from one location to another. Under VSO, yeah it's true that you'll get a imediate lock "L" on midi but now it's taking around 10 seconds to get a lock on machine "a" the MS-16. It will loose the "L" on machine a few times and finally settle down. This is the exact same behavior as midi but just in a different place. Hmm.
Click to expand...

Well, at least it settles down ;) That hasn't happened with the other setting before, at least not in my case. For me the experience is quite similar but as I only have "t" and "M" right now and no atr, it's only the "t" that needs between 1 and 30 seconds to lock. But then it locks and I never loose the lock anymore. At least I haven't encountered it yet. I think the microlynx is fast enough to chase the shitty MTC. Or maybe my MIDI interface is more stable. It's an M-Audio DELTA 1010 which is a PCI interface with 19" rack breakout (AD + DA and midi interface). No firewire or USB stuff.

pianodano said:
What I'm wondering is this. The system, when trying to lock to midi in its INTERNAL mode pulls down everything else imperceptibly. You can't tell that it is happening on the tape recorder and those darn DA-78's are finicky as all get out too and they play along fine using internal.
Click to expand...

I don't think it's pulling down anything to MIDI. I'd say it's pulling down the atr to INTERNAL 29.97Hz, so you see the "L" for "t" and "a" but not for "M". The subframe error is running & overflowing continuously due to the .03Hz difference. Overflow is about every 30 seconds. If I adjust my DAW's timecode to match the 29.97Hz, it takes forever to drift noticably, but it will also never lock. Now that you say that, I would expect the DA-78's to get out of sync too. The fixed internal crystal is a very stable timing source so the DA-78's play along well. The more whack the master timecode is (MTC e.g.) the more problems you get. The display is consistent with the theory, the MIDI error is running and running. If the system would pull down something to MTC, the drift would become slower, which doesn't happen. At least on IntFixed. The manual issues a warning regarding VSO Master: "Please be aware that this type of reference selection will only be as reliable as the incoming master time code source. Any irregularities in speed will be applied to the synchronized slave machines."

pianodano said:
Otoh, with the system in VSO mode it is unable to keep the atr locked and is going in and out of lock a couple times. I wonder just how much it is varispeeding the capstan trying to get it to a resolved state.
Click to expand...

You wrote that the atr settles down after a while or did I get that wrong? I think it depends on how fast the atr can react. I thought varispeeding the atr should be a lesser problem than varispeeding a DAW but as themaddog pointed out in another thread I linked earlier, he was slaving everything to the atr due to the resulting sync and pitch problems otherwise. What is your reference? M or t? I had t as reference, so my display read "t* M". Maybe that makes a difference.

pianodano said:
I am sort of wondering if we are trying to solve a problem we didn't even have.

I haven't ever had any trouble using it the previous way and I suspect the relays are doing the exact same thing in VSO and I just can't hear it with the machine noise in the room.

Does the above make any sense to you guys ?
Click to expand...

I know what you're telling me. Whenever the microlynx looses the lock, the relay will do some clicking. The question is, if the VSO is an improvement in Cory's situation. It's not as complex as your setup and it stands to reason if the BR-20 can keep up with the MTC master. The way your setup was working before, I suspect the lynx never locked to the DAW (thus the missing II or "L" below "M"). It might not be a lot drift but it's about two frames per minute (for a 29.97Hz to 30Hz difference) which makes about 7-8 frames for a typical song at the end. That should be noticable, I think (about 250ms?). You'd only notice that if you stop the DAW, move to the position at 4 minutes and then start it. Does your DAW emit 29.97Hz timecode? In that case it would happily move along the lynx that is configured to 29.97Hz, too. That would account for the very slight phasing you encountered in some tests instead of 250ms delay. I'm still unsure if my propsed setup "a t* M" with VSO Master speed setting proves to be useful. Maybe varispeeding the atr will be too much pitch change, but there's still the possibility of slaving everything (even the DAW) to the microlynx via "a T". Reaper didn't have a problem with playback as I said earlier, but I haven't tried to record anything yet slaving to the lynx. On a sidenote, I really wouldn't want the relays to do that clickety click forever because every mechanical part will eventually go bad. They all have maximum this and that specification.

You know what? I've got a fever! And the only prescription is the ATR accessory cable!

Cheers
Tim
 
Last edited:
Short followup:

The topic "Using Pro Tools with the Micro Lynx" on pages 9-4 to 9-10 of the manual is a good read, too. Pro Tools may have been the only DAW that might have been able to serve as master or slave for the micro lynx in 95, but I don't see why other DAW software shouldn't be able to do that 15 years later. The settings descriptions are detailed. Pro Tools (or any other DAW) as slave is pretty straight forward and just as I explained earlier, but it mihgt put a lot of stress on the PC. I get the feeling from our combined efforts and reading the "Pro Tools as master" section, that in order to really lock things down to e.g. 29.97Hz, you need the ACG add-on for sample position feedback.

Maybe the VSO Master option is good enough for Cory's and my simple setup or maybe we can slave the DAW. But I don't think we'll be able to really lock every machine down to 29.97Hz without utilizing the ACG. Letting the DAW run "semi-wild" like you did, Danny, might work, too if the timecodes of both systems are pretty close together, but MIDI will never lock that way.

So, that's my impression/evaluation of the current situation anyway.

Cheers
Tim
 
timkroeger said:
Hey,



Well, at least it settles down ;) That hasn't happened with the other setting before, at least not in my case. For me the experience is quite similar but as I only have "t" and "M" right now and no atr, it's only the "t" that needs between 1 and 30 seconds to lock. But then it locks and I never loose the lock anymore. At least I haven't encountered it yet. I think the microlynx is fast enough to chase the shitty MTC. Or maybe my MIDI interface is more stable. It's an M-Audio DELTA 1010 which is a PCI interface with 19" rack breakout (AD + DA and midi interface). No firewire or USB stuff.
Click to expand...

EDIT: Yes That is why I bought the second system with the AGC card. But have never used the agc card and no way am I gonna feed a external clock to Lynx Aurora convertors.




Well I have 12 USB ports on my core i7 and and use nearly every one. Also have a farm mchine running samples over a network via fxtelport. Latency is almost nil. I am using 11 of the usb ports for various and sundry things but mostly it's hardware synths and keyboards. I also have a Muse Receptor running as a vst via Muse Uniwire coming over the network into Sonar.It's a rather complex system.

timkroeger said:
I don't think it's pulling down anything to MIDI. I'd say it's pulling down the atr to INTERNAL 29.97Hz, so you see the "L" for "t" and "a" but not for "M". The subframe error is running & overflowing continuously due to the .03Hz difference. Overflow is about every 30 seconds. If I adjust my DAW's timecode to match the 29.97Hz, it takes forever to drift noticably, but it will also never lock. Now that you say that, I would expect the DA-78's to get out of sync too. The fixed internal crystal is a very stable timing source so the DA-78's play along well. The more whack the master timecode is (MTC e.g.) the more problems you get. The display is consistent with the theory, the MIDI error is running and running. If the system would pull down something to MTC, the drift would become slower, which doesn't happen. At least on IntFixed. The manual issues a warning regarding VSO Master: "Please be aware that this type of reference selection will only be as reliable as the incoming master time code source. Any irregularities in speed will be applied to the synchronized slave machines."
Click to expand...




Are you sure it's not adjusting it's internal clock to midi whlie in VSO mode? OR more to the point, how is it staying locked to midi otherwise ? That warning in the manual is self evident and is probably why I set up the system as I did when I got it running.

timkroeger said:
You wrote that the atr settles down after a while or did I get that wrong? I think it depends on how fast the atr can react. I thought varispeeding the atr should be a lesser problem than varispeeding a DAW but as themaddog pointed out in another thread I linked earlier, he was slaving everything to the atr due to the resulting sync and pitch problems otherwise. What is your reference? M or t? I had t as reference, so my display read "t* M". Maybe that makes a difference.
Click to expand...


Reacting fast might be good on the system side but imho quick variations in capstan speed would be very bad. I would think that the system has predetermined rates of varispeed so that we don't get all chipmunky or how low can you go, if you know what I mean.

timkroeger said:
I know what you're telling me. Whenever the microlynx looses the lock, the relay will do some clicking. The question is, if the VSO is an improvement in Cory's situation. It's not as complex as your setup and it stands to reason if the BR-20 can keep up with the MTC master. The way your setup was working before, I suspect the lynx never locked to the DAW (thus the missing II or "L" below "M"). It might not be a lot drift but it's about two frames per minute (for a 29.97Hz to 30Hz difference) which makes about 7-8 frames for a typical song at the end. That should be noticable, I think (about 250ms?). You'd only notice that if you stop the DAW, move to the position at 4 minutes and then start it. Does your DAW emit 29.97Hz timecode? In that case it would happily move along the lynx that is configured to 29.97Hz, too. That would account for the very slight phasing you encountered in some tests instead of 250ms delay. I'm still unsure if my propsed setup "a t* M" with VSO Master speed setting proves to be useful. Maybe varispeeding the atr will be too much pitch change, but there's still the possibility of slaving everything (even the DAW) to the microlynx via "a T". Reaper didn't have a problem with playback as I said earlier, but I haven't tried to record anything yet slaving to the lynx. On a sidenote, I really wouldn't want the relays to do that clickety click forever because every mechanical part will eventually go bad. They all have maximum this and that specification.

You know what? I've got a fever! And the only prescription is the ATR accessory cable!

Cheers
Tim
Click to expand...

I keep Sonar set at 29.97nd.

One of the songs on my website is slightly over 4:00 and I don't recall any problems at lockup. I am pretty finnicky about timing errors. Comes from the fact I was into funk and disco dance music with horn sections and kick ass players back in the 70's. They were some of the very best musicians ever. Timing had to impeccable.

The song I am working on now has 112 tracks on the DAW and will have 14 tracks on tape. And it's 3:58 minutes long. So I try it both ways and report back the results.
It will be a challenging mix.


Tim, yes, get that cable made up real quick. I am relying on you now to set me straight as to the very best perfoming setup for the system. Btw, what kind of music are you doing? What is your involvement. Writing, performing, singing ?
 
Last edited:
I just got done running through my complete reel of SMPTE striped tape with the Micro Lynx TCG set to VSO Master and everything works like a charm.

I was having some trouble with the BR-20T slipping in and out of lock but then I remembered that I had been messing with the framerate setting in Cubase. I now have it set to 30 drop-frame and the t and M* lock almost immediately, the transport takes up to 4 seconds maybe to resolve and typically less than a second and stays that way. Initially there is one V in the upper right, then VV with one blinking, then both stay steady, and then the one that was originally there disappears. I'm guessing the time it takes for all that to happen is what I want to select as my preroll time even though I have >L's showing for most of that process for a, t and M*. I'll have to read up on what those V's mean.

Danny, I understand what you are saying about shifting the issue, but by putting the burden on the mechanical transport my relays are happy, and so am I. I gaurantee that with the TCG set to VSO Master the relays are not clicking, except for one click when the BR-20T enters the locked state.

It is sort of a semantical issue I think; the meaning of >L...it isn't necessarily the Micro Lynx saying "I have control of this group member", but rather "I understand what this element is and what it is doing" and when it understands all the elements and can do what it is being asked to do then you get the appropriate letters in the upper right (which mean "everybody is playing nice together"). May very well be wrong but clearly with an >L showing for the MIDI element it doesn't mean its controlling it, because it can't. So I gather it means it is content with it.

Tim, the comment about the clocking only being as good as the incoming reference code is quite encouraging and affirming. That says that in VSO mode the system is dependent on the incoming code which is what we want. The tape recorder will be fine even with jittery MTC, the important thing is that the DAW gets to clock to the right clock.

Not *totally* out of the woods yet as I want to understand the letter codes (the V's) in the upper right better, and I need to test this with audio and make sure it *sounds* locked, but hoo-boy this is a huge step.

Thank you again, both of you, for your patience and help. Danny, no corn this year, but plenty of other stuff going in the ground. :D Gotta do *something* with all the horse manure.

Another thing is that I HAVE to do something about the guides and lifters on the BR-20T...they are making a bunch of oxide crud all over the place in fast-wind because they are grooved from slightly narrower tape stock, and it has made a mess of my brand new refurbished by Terry's Rubber Rollers pinch roller, and it is messing with the output of the timecode track a little because its such a narrow track width. Gonna rotate the guides and see what I can do to rotate the lifters...probably contact Tascam to see if they have lifters in stock.
 
That is good news Cory. Hey, we may need to get ahold of a smpte guru but isn't 30drop and 29.97 nondrop the same thing? Just different designations put out by different mfrs ? I was certain I had mentioned in the very beginning that you needed to use 29.97nd. Did I give you bad info in that?
 
Cory,

RE VV to the right of the display. Turn to page 8-5 in the manual. L on the Midi element means (to me anyhow) that the system has resolved and locked to it. Temporailorly anyway, in the case of midi. But I am probably wrong.
 
I think I explained it a little awkward, so I'll try again: I'm sure the microlynx pulls down some internal reference to match the incoming MTC in VSO Master mode, but it won't be the fixed speed crystal. Then the other machines are are locked to the master and follow it.

My earlier comment about not pulling anything down to match MIDI was regarding the IntFixed setting. Fixed is just fixed. IntFixed is just another speed reference just as VSO Master or IntVar. They just provide a timing whereas IntFixed and IntVar are pretty accurate and consistent. VSO Master is as accurate as the source. And MTC is not that accurate. Therefore it's more likely to notice pitch changes and sync lock failures.

Regarding varispeeding the capstan, I think there are some very deep configuration options about how the speedup and slowdown is handled, but all in its time ;)

With Sonar on 27.97 ND its clear to me why don't have massive drift. Both units (DAW and microlynx) run along pretty well and you won't notice any lock unlock clicketies unless your initial error will be close to .99. Most of the time it's not. I'd call that a semi-wild DAW ;) where the DAW primes the lynx on it's position via MTC and then just moves along without being locked against.

Oh, and I'm a guitarist. Have been in various bands, and have always been interested in recording and mixing. I have remixed a few of our songs which we tracked in 2005 having no idea of mic placement, levels and whatnot. I invite you both to have a quick listen to it at soundcloud. All mixes "in-the-box" 16 to 19 tracks. No limiting on 2-bus. I tried to get out of it what I could but the source material was pretty bad. The snare for example is just dead ;) The band split in 2006 and I do some blueish Garage-Country-Kick-Ass-Cow-Punk-Rock-Rock-Rock now. Myspace tracks are pretty rough just a mic and an old MD-recorder in the middle of the room. Looking very much forward to do some serious tracking with the guys.

Cheers
Tim
 
Cory, that is indeed great news! Let's hope the audio doesn't pitch about the MTC :laughings:

Regarding the VVs, they're explained on the page Danny pointed out. I think, the first one is blinking because VSO Master is per definition a reference source that is not "stable". So the ref lock will never light up constantly. That's at least my interpretation of the blinking.

Cheers
Tim
 
Cory,

How about a full report on how the Microlynx is handling the BR-20. Is it postioning the tape close to the desired address with the lifters extended as my MS-16 does. IOW, is it relying on tach speed /revolutions to get close and then retract the lifters for reading absolute location - then and park or play?

I know it will. It is awesome that mine never retracts the lifters until absolutely necessary.
 
Tom,

I listened to all 3. I really liked the 3rd tune. You definitely have some exceptionally talented players in your group !

Were you born in Germany ?
 
pianodano said:
Tim,

I listened to all 3. I really liked the 3rd tune. You definitely have some exceptionally talented players in your group !
Click to expand...

Thanks a lot! Too bad the band split up, we had a lot of fun playing, did some gigs, too. My brother was on drums and we still play together in the second band I linked.

pianodano said:
Were you born in Germany ?
Click to expand...

Yes, been living here all my life ;)

I think I read in the Tascam ATR-60/16 manual about the tach positioning feedback and the lifters retracting only when closing in on the position. Very nice! Did I mention that I still need the transport cable? ...

Cheers
Tim
 
timkroeger said:
Thanks a lot! Too bad the band split up, we had a lot of fun playing, did some gigs, too. My brother was on drums and we still play together in the second band I linked.



Yes, been living here all my life ;)

I think I read in the Tascam ATR-60/16 manual about the tach positioning feedback and the lifters retracting only when closing in on the position. Very nice! Did I mention that I still need the transport cable? ...

Cheers
Tim
Click to expand...

Well, what is the holdup. I mean, you've had all day to get it done!! roflmao.

BTW, How is it that you are so fluent in english? You write like it's your native language. Amazing.
 
Tim...I was wondering about your english too...amazing.

I'll listen to your material you linked later on.

The ATR60 should behave quite nicely as a sync slave...it is a generation newer than Danny's MS16 and we know how nicely that functions. ;)

Ok, fellas, I'll post another video later, but I have to use straight 30 non-drop as the frame rate coming off of Cubase. This doesn't bother me, but I'm trying to figure out how that correlates to the code with which my tape was striped, which was with the Micro Lynx generator set to the default 29.97Hz/30 setting. No matter, because I can hit PLAY in Cubase and everybody in the group has a >L associated with it and there is a VV in the upper right...I can jump positions in the DAW (and leave the Cubase transport rolling so the TAscam has an added challenge of locking to a moving target) and the BR-20T zips to the new position and after it parks and goes into PLAY we are back to full lock in a flash...I get no more than an occasional single subframe shift which *quickly* goes away. I call that awesome. If I use any other frame rate in Cubase I get a frame error that builds by 2's, or I get a constant hunting, locking, hunting condition in the lock status of transport a.

Again, I'll put up the video but I'm cautiously excited.
 
Here is a video of my BR-20T chase-locking to Cubase...Its a thing of beauty.

YouTube

Again, I haven't done an audio test yet (i.e. tracking program material to the BR-20T and Cubase while locked and then monitoring playback off of both, also while locked, to listen for phase anomalies), but at this stage I am very encouraged. Watch and see what you think.

Also a token shot of the crud that comes off the headblock because of the abrasive lifters and guides:

IMG_6488_1_1.JPG


There is such a comfort knowing I'm not asking my DAW to chase signal from a mechanical transport ported over a jittery MIDI connection...and the BR-20T and Micro Lynx seem to make a good pair.

Okay...Check this out...below is an excerpt from my Cubase manual on synchronization...it basically says (if I understand correctly) that Steinberg addressed the issue of samples being dropped and added in order to compensate for the timing anomalies of slaving a DAW to a mechanical transport by keeping the digital audio sync'ed to the wordclock, but the DAW transport is what sync's to the incoming MTC when slaving the DAW. :eek:

Do you get that??

The digital audio stays whole, but in order to sync the digital transport chases. So how does that work??? Well it explains that there may be issues because the "playback timing of each event will not be in total accordance with the tape or MIDI playback..."

IOW, in order to keep your digital audio whole when slaving Cubase the audio doesn't actually slave.

Heheh...choose your poison, boys. I'm stickin' with slaving the transport.

You can read this in context for yourself in the Operation Manual for Cubase 4 on page 423. You can download the manual pack >here< if you need such proof.
 

Attachments

  • Cubase synchronization.jpg
    Cubase synchronization.jpg
    59 KB · Views: 48
Last edited:
Found some connector assemblies from Molex (C-Grid III connection system) but still no nice hood/shell:

Crimp housing
Crimp contact

The only catalog distributor I could find is digikey and I could put together some housings and sockets:

Digi-Key housing
Digi-Key socket

The connector scavanging I had planned to do on the cdrom cables didn't work out as the sockets wouldn't fit.

Cheers
Tim
Click to expand...

Tim, finally had a chance to take a peek at these...yup...same ones that are available locally here. Keep in mind that these will not latch into the lock tabs on those 3M connectors on the back of the Micro Lynx. I believe you'll have to shave a notch in them, or try to remove the lock tabs or the connectors may not fully seat...just double-check the depth of the connector and make sure that the lock tabs clear the back of the connector or it may be sketchy...

-EDIT-

Just checked...the Molex versions have a depth of 0.600"...the original JAE connector is 0.591" and the notch for the lock tab reduces that further. It may or may not be a problem...not wanting to put a shadow on things, just be aware.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top