Tascam BR-20T Story...

This sucks...

Tim, I haven't digested your detailed post a few back yet, and Danny I haven't read the article yet in your last post yet, but (obviously) I have no ACG card and even if I did I'd be limited to 48kHz sample rate...the ACG card has a BNC wordclock out right? I'm using my Presonus Digimax FS as my wordclock master...it has the Presonus Jet PLL clock in it which sounded less smeary than than the clock in my Yamaha 01X so I set that as the clock master and then it feeds wordclock to the Yamaha i88x via Lightpipe. The i88x is the "soundcard" that Cubase sees. So anyway, the Digimax FS has a BNC wordclock connection on itbut I can't reall if that is out or in. If it was an input then I could take the ACG card clock output (if I had one) and connect that to the Digimax FS and keep on working the I have been working only I'd be limited to 48kHz, which would bother me.

I'LL POST SOME VIDEOS LATER OF WHAT IS GOING ON, but I'm sure it directly correlates to what Tim is talking about in his post (which I have yet to digest) but what I see happening is that when I solo the MIDI member of the group (the Cubase MTC output) and put the Cubase transport into PLAY, there is an error of about 50~90 subframes. As the transport plays that error slowly jitters its way down to 0 and as it approaches (jittering on and off of 0) the "L" flickers, the "I" flickers correspondingly on the upper right of the Micro Lynx LCD, and the relays clickity-click like mad as the Micro Lynx tries to lock to this "drive-by" timecode entity. As the error passes through 0 and rolls back to 90-ish subframes the clicking ceases and the lock indicators cease as well, but then it naturally happens again, cyclically. The timecode on the tape is whatever was striped with the Micro Lynx TCG set to the "29.97Hz/30" default (is that 29.97dfps???) and cubase MTC is set to output 29.97dfps, THOUGH IT DOESN'T SEEM TO MATTER WHAT FRAME RATE CUBASE IS SET TO BECAUSE THE PHENOMENON HAPPENS WITH EVERY ONE, THERE IS JUST A DIFFERENCE IN HOW LONG IT TAKES.

Again, I have some Quicktime videos I'll put up later today, but I'm severely disappointed and upset at this moment (not AT anybody, just at the situation) as it appears the Micro Lynx WILL NOT reliably slave my BR-20T to the DAW unless the house is sync'ed to wordclock from an ACG card and then I'm capped at 48kHz, and I'm not even sure that the ACG clock is as good as the clock in my Digimax FS.

:( :( :(
 
Here are the videos...I haven't had time to preview them and I can't recall what's what as far as what's on them but it is all about the error drift.

YouTube

YouTube

YouTube

Danny, I agree that the MIDI member is "wild", but I also believe that what is happening is that the Micro Lynx is not following the MTC...that when the group shows ">L" for the transport and the TCG it is simply representing that the transport and the TCG are locked to each other, and that the MIDI member is just doing its thing...I don't think the Micro Lynx (without the ACG card) can chase-lock MTC, and at that you are limited to 48kHz.

Anybody want a Micro Lynx system? I have two of them. :(
 
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Aw come on Cory, You are going in the wrong direction if you sell you Microlynx systems. IT WILL WORK. You do not need to use the AGC card. I don't. I didn't have one for 2 years. Tim doesn't use the digital clock. Neither do I. No way would I adulterate the pristine audio from my Aurora convertors by sending it a external clock reference.

It (your system) should already be defaulted to RESOLVE MTC. Check under the menu to make sure.

I can't figure out for the life of me how you are running a TC track on a 2 track stereo recorder UNLESS it has a center TC track. I have been using my MS-16 recorder all day long without the tiniest error. when I solo midi, it is right on. Curiously enough, Midi has remained in "L" (locked) state all day also . Just od'nt go thinking that you MUST varispeed the DAW.You do not. You have something else going on.
 
must have something else going on.
Click to expand...


Indeed. I thought both you and Tim were using the ACG card.

If there is something else going on, that is great, really great...but hopefully there can be some helps to assist me in figuring that out.

Did you watch the videos?

Danny, I'm sync'ing with a Tascam BR-20T halftrack..."T" for "timecode". Yes it has a center timecode track betwixt the two NAB audio tracks. Tape is striped with whatever the timecode format is that is generated by the Micro Lynx TCG when set to the default "29.97Hz/30" frame rate.

Don't get frustrated with me, please. You may not realize it but this has been a very long (years), multi-faceted process for me and I'm finally getting some focus on my wayward ways and this is important to me to get this to work, and so many times have I had an impression that something will do a certain thing only to find an insurmountable (for me) caviat. This is/was starting to shape up that way.

Making this work would make it possible to do what I want to do in order to record my oldest son's piano playing. Sounds like a minor thing, but it is not.
 
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sweetbeats said:
This sucks...

when I solo the MIDI member of the group (the Cubase MTC output) and put the Cubase transport into PLAY, there is an error of about 50~90 subframes. As the transport plays that error slowly jitters its way down to 0 and as it approaches (jittering on and off of 0) the "L" flickers, the "I" flickers correspondingly on the upper right of the Micro Lynx LCD, :( :
Click to expand...


That is exactly what it is supposed to do. Do you realize what a tiny bit a subframe is ?

The DAW is running wild. The Microlynx is adjusting everything else to keep up with the DAW. I will glady post a video too if it will make you feel better.

PS: I will never get frustrated with you. I just can't understand why you keep thinking that the microlyx can have any control over the crappy old midi time code it is being fed. Chances are it's even coming over USB. Do you realize how much jitter is in midi over USB ? Heck, I have talked with some of the smartest guys in the business over at the Sonar forum regarding midi jitter. They have had dozen and dozens of pages going on with data that would make rocket scientist do a double take. There is nothing that can be done about midi jitter. But that's all you'll get out of most DAW's. Crappy midi time code.
 
Hey Cory,

don't give up yet. Otherwise I'll gladly take those lynxes :D I had exactly the same problems as you described. Clickety-click shuffle... Then I fooled around with the ACG but I disconnected it again, so I'm not using it, just as Danny pointed out. I didn't reset the configuration though and that's what makes all the difference (at least in my case). Press SETUP, MIDI, then a few times the NEXT button until you arrive at the MIDI Resolve option. Set it to ACG servo via the + button. Leave the configuration via SETUP.

I have still the subframe drift and I think it doesn't matter in which direction it drifts (your's runs backwards, mine runs forward). As long as it runs, you'll reach 0.00 in 30 seconds tops and then it locks (TCG fixed internal = II in my case). Still, I don't know if I interpret the lock correctly and if it really does what I think it does. I'll know that, when I connect the deck.

Cheers,
Tim
 
Cory,

Tell me that you do know about PREROLL. You do right? How much preroll are you putting at the head of the song in the DAW ? At least 10 seconds, right ? That will allow enough time for the pullup and lock to M almost happen. Remember that it's got to have a imperceptible trajectory. Otherwise you would hear it happening. That would be a bad thing.
 
Just a thought, you did say that your microlynx doesn't have the ACG card so maybe the option in MIDI is not available. That would suck and I don't know how else I would resolve to MIDI as master as I had the same problems before I activated that servo option.

Since I don't know if what I see really works as it would seem to, I'm still thinking about syncing to the microlynx by just using TCG and A in a group. MTC ouput works anyway when you just select TCG and I had no problem starting reaper via the timeline remote. TCG speed setting needs to be 29.97Hz/30 in that case (29.97Hz system unit speed / 30Hz timecode), since I can not change the input MTC frequency in reaper. It's set fixed to 30Hz.

The last "option" I'm thinking of, is just leaving the MIDI wild. It may depend on the MIDI interface, I don't know but when I set the DAW's output timecode to 29.97 (non dropping) although the microlynx is set to 29.97Hz/30 and thus would require a 30Hz timecode (I think), the error fluctuates only slightly and never drifts since both interfaces "run" in 29.97Hz mode. It will never lock but it seems to be chasing just fine. Still sucks, if it fluctuates around 0.00 as it will try to lock again and there goes the clickety click.

One last thing I saw when I watched your first video. You talk about soloing the MIDI. You didn't see the error BECAUSE you solo'd it. For the error information to become visible you need to check the state of the interface by just pressing e.g. MIDI instead of pressing SOLO + MIDI.

EDIT: ok, you got it in the second video. Note to self: process all information before posting ;)

Hope this helps.
Tim
 
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OK before this gets any more confusing, my client has been gone for a while and I have spent a hour or so refreshing my memory and to verify that what I thought I remembered was true is still true. Some things are and some are not.

So here's the deal:


1: If you think it's something especially gratifying and you really want to see a 0 subframe error Lock to midi, just put 30 seconds of preroll at the head of the song. The system pulls down at the rate of about .033 sub frames per frame which = a "L" state on midi in about 30 seconds or less. (I think that's right but math ain't one of my my strong points).

2: It will drift apart again by up to .99 subframes but will remain LOCKED to midi. That's probably because it's smart enough to quickly figure that midi bugger out and already knows that it's a wacked out timecome. So it's thinking something like, pizz on it. I'll catch back up with you little midi buggers in a few bits. But I have a whole group of other things to drag along too.

3: It is the luck of the draw where the error from lock begins when pressing play on the DAW transport. It can be anywhere from .99 to .00. I would theorize it has something to do with with exactly when you press play on the transport of your DAW relative to the DAW digital clock and the Microlynx clock. But it's beyond me. Somehow it just varies every time you press play on the DAW.

4: Most important thing is this. It doesn't matter unless you're locking to video, which you ain't. And If you was, you would need a DAW that you could resolve. The slight error will only amount to minor phase shift and you can do the test I put up earlier to prove it to yourself. And if you was resolving the DAW you would still have minor phasing between machines too.

Timeline Microlynx works. I mean, for myself, after working with midi since it's inception, I think it's a miracle that anything could lock to that. And I am farily confident that if Nasa had had this system available when Apollo 13 blew that hole in it's side and had to swing around the dark side of the moon, they wouldn't have needed all those mathemeticians (that couldn't be spelled right) to get the capsule safely back home.

So lighten up Cory. And Here's a tip for you. Plant your corn early this year.
 
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Do you realize what a tiny bit a subframe is ?
Click to expand...

Yes. I do. I'M NOT WORRIED ABOUT THE SUBFRAME ERROR. I'm concerned about the fact that the Micro Lynx's relays go BONKERS as the error approaches and passes 0.00.

Tell me that you do know about PREROLL. You do right? How much preroll are you putting at the head of the song in the DAW ? At least 10 seconds, right ?
Click to expand...

Yes. I was figuring on 15 seconds preroll, but whatever it takes.

I just can't understand why you keep thinking that the microlyx can have any control over the crappy old midi time code it is being fed. Chances are it's even coming over USB.
Click to expand...

Danny, I don't understand why you think I want to resolve/control the MIDI...I just need confirmation that the Micro Lynx is chasing it, and I need the Micro Lynx to stop going BONKERS every time the error approaches and passes 0.00. Those are my ONLY concerns. Also, the MIDI is coming over firewire. Maybe there's a lot of MIDI jitter I don't know but the firewire also carries the digital audio.

don't give up yet. Otherwise I'll gladly take those lynxes I had exactly the same problems as you described. Clickety-click shuffle... Then I fooled around with the ACG but I disconnected it again, so I'm not using it, just as Danny pointed out. I didn't reset the configuration though and that's what makes all the difference (at least in my case). Press SETUP, MIDI, then a few times the NEXT button until you arrive at the MIDI Resolve option. Set it to ACG servo via the + button. Leave the configuration via SETUP.
Click to expand...

Tim, I cannot set MIDI to RESOLVE...My options are either "OFF" or it says "NO ACG". And anyway, again, I'm not concerned about resolving the MTC, I just want to confirm that the Micro Lynx is indeed chasing the MTC, and I want the Micro Lynx to totally ignore trying to resolve the MTC (just want it to resolve TOO the MTC) but the >L and II indicators flickering and the relays going nuts tells me its trying to DO something and I want it not to worry about it.

Thanks, guys...I REALLY hope I am making myself clear here.
 
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Since I don't know if what I see really works as it would seem to, I'm still thinking about syncing to the microlynx by just using TCG and A in a group. MTC ouput works anyway when you just select TCG and I had no problem starting reaper via the timeline remote. TCG speed setting needs to be 29.97Hz/30 in that case (29.97Hz system unit speed / 30Hz timecode), since I can not change the input MTC frequency in reaper. It's set fixed to 30Hz.
Click to expand...

So, wait...Tim, are you suggesting that the group will chase MTC even if MIDI is not a member of the group? And in that case, which member of the group is the master and reference?

I messed around with all this some more tonight, even setting up the backup Micro Lynx system and its the same thing...click-click-clickity-clickclick, etc. Its a terrible racket and not acceptable to be happening every minute or so +/-.

I pulled the cover off the system unit and used a crude mechanic's stethoscope to see which relay or relays is/are clicking, and it is only K1, which is the MUTE relay. Not knowing what this does at this point tells me nothing.

Back to the manual.
 
EDIT: FF to the next post, I think I got it.

pianodano said:
OK before this gets any more confusing
Click to expand...

Good introduction :) It's time to have a good look at the results.

pianodano said:
1: If you think it's something especially gratifying and you really want to see a 0 subframe error Lock to midi, just put 30 seconds of preroll at the head of the song. The system pulls down at the rate of about .033 sub frames per frame which = a "L" state on midi in about 30 seconds or less. (I think that's right but math ain't one of my my strong points).
Click to expand...

Yes, 30 seconds should be enough. That's good advice if the system would lock. Cory's and my system don't lock after the subframe error overflow at .00 though.

pianodano said:
2: It will drift apart again by up to .99 subframes but will remain LOCKED to midi. That's probably because it's smart enough to quickly figure that midi bugger out and already knows that it's a wacked out timecome. So it's thinking something like, pizz on it. I'll catch back up with you little midi buggers in a few bits. But I have a whole group of other things to drag along too.
Click to expand...

That's the main consistent thing we have witnessed. Cory's and my problem is, the mute relay (whatever that does) goes bonkers when it's approaching .00 subframe error. We both can reproduce that. I have been able to get the system locked though with the MIDI Resolve option set to ACG servo. Cory doesn't have that option and I don't know if it really does what it is supposed to do so I'm with Cory here and I'll be trying to get set it up as if there was no ACG card.

pianodano said:
3: It is the luck of the draw where the error from lock begins when pressing play on the DAW transport. It can be anywhere from .99 to .00. I would theorize it has something to do with with exactly when you press play on the transport of your DAW relative to the DAW digital clock and the Microlynx clock. But it's beyond me. Somehow it just varies every time you press play on the DAW.
Click to expand...

Exactly what I was thinking / experiencing.

pianodano said:
4: Most important thing is this. It doesn't matter unless you're locking to video, which you ain't. And If you was, you would need a DAW that you could resolve. The slight error will only amount to minor phase shift and you can do the test I put up earlier to prove it to yourself. And if you was resolving the DAW you would still have minor phasing between machines too.
Click to expand...

I'd test that, too and I supose Cory would do just the same, if the relay wouldn't get all crazy on subframe error overflow.

sweetbeats said:
So, wait...Tim, are you suggesting that the group will chase MTC even if MIDI is not a member of the group? And in that case, which member of the group is the master and reference?
Click to expand...

No, not exactly. I was suggesting an alternative. The MIDI option is somewhat special is it will always be the master. That means you can't change the group's master via press&holding SETUP + A for example, if MIDI is included in the group. It's kind of a special "chase MIDI dammit!" command. I was just suggesting that before we're trying to achieve something that gives us extended headaches, it might be a good thing to try an alternative setup to get things done and hopefully enable you to record your son playing the piano. That's the goal. Lucky for me I don't have a goal other than pleasing my need to have work exactly like I want it to work right now. I was suggesting you make the TCG the master and letting the DAW and BR-20 chase. I know, it's not what you had in mind (I didn't either), but people need to sync to video all the time, so the DAW would need to be able to chase anyway. It might just work, just as themaddog pointed out in this thread. The setup would be 29.97Hz/30 again with your BR-20 striped at 29.97Hz. That's a given, I think. Group setup would be TCG + A, so I think it would look like "a T*" in the display. When you select the TCG, it always emits MTC via the MIDI OUT. At least it should. So the DAW is be able to follow, it just doesn't report back if something goes wrong. I just suggested you try it, before getting any more headaches. I haven't tried to record like that but I have been able to rew/ff, play and locate via the microlynx's remote.

I'll do some more testing with chasing MIDI though today. It would be wise to make a matrix of available options we think can affect the outcome and note the results, e.g. drift/no drift, lock/no lock... whatever. The problem needs to be addressed systematically, otherwise we're only increasing our frustration level. Having said that, I had a look at the manual again and there are some interesting TCG and TRANsport configuration settings regarding the mute relays. Have a look at the setup key descriptions on 8-18 of your manual (keyboard controller section).

SETUP + TCG
TCG -> TCG GROUP MODE offers:
  • PLAY, RUN
  • PLAY, MUTE
  • PLAY, WIND
with PLAY. MUTE being the default.

SETUP + TRAN then select TRAN again
TRAN -> TRAN OPTIONS -> MUTE CONTROL offers
  • NORMAL
  • UNTIL RSLVED
  • UNTIL LOCKED
  • NOT LOCKED
with NORMAL being the default.

Just another two options to tweak and maybe get the mute relay clickety symptom tackled.

Cheers
Tim
 
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I think I got it. Danny what's your TCG System Ref? I was wondering what you are doing differently since you are at least getting a lock after some preroll but we were not getting a lock and just whacky clickety-relay jive. There are 5 to 6 options available:

  • IntFix
  • IntVar
  • ExtVid
  • Aux
  • VSO Master
  • ACG

I had set the speed reference to IntFixed (that would group lock by showing II in the display) because I thought that would be the way to go. Don't ask me why. With the lynx being the master that would of course make sense. But if the DAW is the master with TCG slaving, you need to set the speed reference to VSO Master because the TCG has to slave/varispeed the TCG and tape to the MIDI master. Read section 6-18 "Setting variable speed playback". I got a lock on midi without any ACG setting stuff immediately. I still have TCG as reference, since I put it first in the group but MIDI is the master. MIDI has consistently .00 subframe error. If I stat the TCG and jump to a different position in the DAW, I have a small subframe error but it takes less than 1 second to get down to .00. At least for audio only, I think this might be the way to go. We don't need to adhere to the NTSC standard of strict 29.97Hz since we don't have video source material. The group lock indicator now shows as "VV" for me with the first "V" blinking. Don't know what that means, yet, maybe it has something to do with the ACG card since the ref lock / OUT 48k leds blink in unison with the V. But it seems to work. I don't have the tape connected yet, though.

Cheers
Tim
 
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Tim,

I had to do a bit of experimenting with the TCG options in the beginning BECAUSE I am sending SMPTE time code to a bank of DA-78's which will only chase SMPTE.

The TCG option I had to use was Play/mute iirc. This only effects the output of the smpte code over the RCA jack, again, if I recall correctly. IE: play/mute means : send TC out only when playing and mute it when not. My DA-78's have a chase /master/slave mode and are are not controlled via Sony nine pin so that makes sense.

Play/wind means just that. To send out TC from the start of play and continue also from the same location in wind mode.
Play/run means: start sending TC on run and continue sending it even when stopped.

You can plug a TC cable in your console input and hear the results of the differnet menu settings on the above.

I have always used Internal/fixed. Do you want me to try internal variable ?

I always hear a bit of chatter from the relays in my system unit also, but it's in a rack and with all the other noise it is barely noticeable.

Tim, I was sure that I had read in one of your earlier posts that you always achieved "L" state on midi after the system resolved itself to it, but I couldn't postively remember at the time if I did or not. That's why I did the testing last night to verify. Did I dream that ?
 
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Manual page 8-13 lower half explain the I and II.

I can't understand how I could ever see the I or II but I periodically do. Just happen stance I suppose because there is no way the master could ever lock to the internal reference. Perhaps I really do need to try Internal/Variable. hmm. what to do ?


Cory, If you do decide that you don't want your Microlynx system anymore, I will gladly buy it back from you and pay you for your power supply too. As I said before, honestly, I sold it because I thought that with all the trouble you had seen while trying to make the Tascam unit work, it was time for you to get the real deal. Just let me know.
 
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Hey Danny,

pianodano said:
I have always used Internal/fixed. Do you want me to try internal variable ?

I always hear a bit of chatter from the relays in my system unit also, but it's in a rack and with all the other noise it is barely noticeable.

Tim, I was sure that I had read in one of your earlier posts that you always achieved "L" state on midi after the system resolved itself to it, but I couldn't postively remember at the time if I did or not. That's why I did the testing last night to verify. Did I dream that ?
Click to expand...

no, you didn't dream that. When using IntFix, I am able to achieve "L" state, but only if I enable ACG servo for MIDI resolve. Otherwise I encounter the same weird relais chatter you hear happening when watching Cory's videos. I suspect it is the same clacky noise that you describe. I have the system unit right beside the console so it is very noticable to me. As I don't really know if enabling the ACG servo is a reasonable setting for non-ACG stuff (I don't use it, just enabled the setting), and Cory dos not have the option, I wanted to try and achieve a lock without the ACG servo option.

FixVar doesn't help here because you have to set the "fixed variable speed" via the microlynx's configuration. That's not fun and won't help because then the DAW would need to chase.

VSO Master helps in my case though. It is the variable speed option for chasing whatever master you have configured for the group. Since we configure MIDI to be the group's master, and relax the strict 29.97Hz clock reference constraint by chosing variable speed instead of fixed speed, the wacky MTC is no issue anymore. The microlynx's TCG and other connected machines will chase the MTC wherever it goes. You won't be able to do video stuff then though, since you'd need the strict 29.97Hz reference for that and anything with variable speed would be disasterous. I think for a DAW master audio-centric system this might be the way to go though, but as I said earlier, I'm only learning this and just wanted to help Cory (and myself) to get a usable setup for recording. It might not be THE answer to everything that's going on, but I am pretty confident that you can achieve good results with the VSO Master setting.

Cheers
Tim
 
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timkroeger said:
Hey Danny,




VSO Master helps in my case though. It is the variable speed option for chasing whatever master you have configured for the group. Since we configure MIDI to be the group's master, and relax the strict 29.97Hz clock reference constraint by chosing variable speed instead of fixed speed, the wacky MTC is no issue anymore. The microlynx's TCG and other connected machines will chase the MTC wherever it goes. You won't be able to do video stuff then though, since you'd need the strict 29.97Hz reference for that and anything with variable speed would be disasterous. I think for a DAW master audio-centric system this might be the way to go though, but as I said earlier, I'm only learning this and just wanted to help Cory (and myself) to get a usable setup for recording. It might not be THE answer to everything that's going on, but I am pretty confident that you can achieve good results with the VSO Master setting.

Cheers
Tim
Click to expand...

Ok Tim, I'll try it in a little while. Need to get the room up and running. Which recorder do you plan to use with your system?

PS: I did put a chessy little video on Utube some time back for Cory. Here's a link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eV63e7tWWIQ
 
Danny, that is a great video! Really nice seeing your setup works and I like the tune! If you have the time to check if the VSO Master setting works for you, that would be cool. I still need to fabricate the accessory cable and that will take some time as I need to wait for the digi-key stuff so I don't know for sure that it'll work but I'm pretty sure. The quality will depend on how tight the MTC is though. Oh, and I'm planning to hook up my Tascam ATR-60/16 to the microlynx. I really can't wait any more :D

Cheers
Tim
 
Tim,

Very good call on the VSO option. It locks to midi "MASTER" immediately. Machine stays in "L" state also on my few tries so far. I just never had any reason to try it. I will give it a run for the money over the next few days.

I can't find the reference to VSO anywhere in the manual except under the TCG menu - as to exactly what it is doing. I did find in the index that VSO is Varible Speed Overide but I don't know if that what it means in this case. Did you find the reference in the manual ?

Thanks for the comments. And you are going to love your system. This stuff just works !!

Danny
 
pianodano said:
I can't find the reference to VSO anywhere in the manual except under the TCG menu - as to exactly what it is doing. I did find in the index that VSO is Varible Speed Overide but I don't know if that what it means in this case. Did you find the reference in the manual ?
Click to expand...

I found it in Operational Feature (page 6-18 for me). My manual is dated 04/13/95. The section with the two paragraphs in question is called "Setting Variable Speed Playback" and succeeds the Program Macro stuff. The next section "Code Only Master Operation" delves a little deeper into what we are trying to achieve known as "code only master".
 
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