F
Flatpicker
...
Well, except the Hitler thing. I can certainly understand how that could cause grief for some people.Flatpicker said:...but I have to admit, the whole thing’s been very entertaining!
Giganova
gimmi your mic!
I don't want to go into the "everything was better in the old days" debate and whether todays Neumann mics are as good as the old ones. I leave this to guys who own both old and new Neumann mics and have a lot of experience to judge on this.
But let me see if I got this straight:
I presume -- even though I don't know exactly -- that Sennheiser/Neumann sent Fletcher a "warning letter" that he was selling their stuff way too cheap and not abiding to their contract. Right? I assume that Sennheiser/Neumann has some "minimum prices" on their products and that _certified Neumann dealers_ were not allowed to sell their products for less. Do you think this is what happened? This is actually common practise in Europe -- and believe it or not -- was introduced some time ago by some companies to protect the customers. The reasonn is that there was a big store in Germany some time ago selling lots of their stuff for prices well BELOW what they've paied for to the manufacturer. Neddless to say that this was a big store with a large financial background. Their idea was to ruin all their competition within a very brief period of time. After they successfully did so, they were monopolizing the market and drove prices waaaay up again due to a lack of competition. Cunsumer protection laws were introduced in Germany to avoid that such things can happen again. Many companies responded by forcing their certified dealers to stay within a certain price range. I presume that Sennheiser/Neumann did that. Actually, there are very strict laws in Germany regarding book prices, for example. In Germany, every book store has to sell the books at exactly the same price! That's why we don't only have Barnes & Nobles in Germany but many little local book stores, too, who are financially not at risk. I don't want to judge on that but just mention it. Another reason for Sennheiser/Neumann to keep prices fairly high might be to keep the myth alive that they are upper class. Daimer Crysler/Mercedes is doing the same, so does Porsche etc etc etc. They simply don't WANT everybody to be able to afford their products for marketing strategies. If that's the case here, why is Fletcher so upset? No-one forced him to sell their products and if he doesn't like the management of that company, well just dump them. Some foreign companies have rules which are hard to understand in other countries. No need to go on a crusade or get old pictured from Nazi Germany out of the closet coz this is not changing anything except heating up a lame debate about nothing.
But let me see if I got this straight:
I presume -- even though I don't know exactly -- that Sennheiser/Neumann sent Fletcher a "warning letter" that he was selling their stuff way too cheap and not abiding to their contract. Right? I assume that Sennheiser/Neumann has some "minimum prices" on their products and that _certified Neumann dealers_ were not allowed to sell their products for less. Do you think this is what happened? This is actually common practise in Europe -- and believe it or not -- was introduced some time ago by some companies to protect the customers. The reasonn is that there was a big store in Germany some time ago selling lots of their stuff for prices well BELOW what they've paied for to the manufacturer. Neddless to say that this was a big store with a large financial background. Their idea was to ruin all their competition within a very brief period of time. After they successfully did so, they were monopolizing the market and drove prices waaaay up again due to a lack of competition. Cunsumer protection laws were introduced in Germany to avoid that such things can happen again. Many companies responded by forcing their certified dealers to stay within a certain price range. I presume that Sennheiser/Neumann did that. Actually, there are very strict laws in Germany regarding book prices, for example. In Germany, every book store has to sell the books at exactly the same price! That's why we don't only have Barnes & Nobles in Germany but many little local book stores, too, who are financially not at risk. I don't want to judge on that but just mention it. Another reason for Sennheiser/Neumann to keep prices fairly high might be to keep the myth alive that they are upper class. Daimer Crysler/Mercedes is doing the same, so does Porsche etc etc etc. They simply don't WANT everybody to be able to afford their products for marketing strategies. If that's the case here, why is Fletcher so upset? No-one forced him to sell their products and if he doesn't like the management of that company, well just dump them. Some foreign companies have rules which are hard to understand in other countries. No need to go on a crusade or get old pictured from Nazi Germany out of the closet coz this is not changing anything except heating up a lame debate about nothing.
muzeman
New member
Gee,I thought mabey somebody wanted a good mic cheap!
Though I see Emeric's point,Nazism is definitly not something to be trivialized.
Pete
Though I see Emeric's point,Nazism is definitly not something to be trivialized.
Pete
Light
New member
Shailat said:
Actually, Fletcher makes his living off of the fact that he has more knowledge of professional audio than anybody on this website, and most of the people working in studios today. He is a very, very good engineer. If you don't want to do business with him, this is YOUR lose, not his. You are losing the advice and experience he brings to his business, not to mention his scrupulous honesty in dealing with his customers.
I mean really, do you really expect a biker to work well with a company who tries to tell him what to do.
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
Light
New member
You know, though, it wouldn't be at all funny if it weren’t for the Neumann mics in the photo.
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
J
jslator
New member
That_Abbott said:
That came from Giganova saying that it's inconsistant to be pissed off at Neumann/Sennheiser and to still deal in vintage Neumann mic's. It's not. Fletcher could very well hope that Neumann never sells another new mic, but still hope to move a lot of vintage product. Nothing inconsistant with that at all.
O
ozraves
New member
Interesting...
I've never thought of Mercenary as a place that aggressively prices anything. I always thought of them as a place where you get a line of very high quality boutique products, a lot of knowledge and an open return policy.
I've never thought of Mercenary as a place that aggressively prices anything. I always thought of them as a place where you get a line of very high quality boutique products, a lot of knowledge and an open return policy.
Shailat
New member
Light said:
Honesty in a dealer is a very important thing and I can appreciate that. To the fact that he has knowledge I don't doubt that.
However, tell me how do you know that he is such a good engineer?
H
Harvey Gerst
New member
The rec.audio.pro compilation sets have had entries from Fletcher for the last five years. Mixerman is on this latest set, as are a number of people whose names are known here.
Jeff_D
New member
pictures are fuckin pictures- its Nazis that are in poor taste- i dont care if your german or not- Nazi suck. Fletcher made a very valid point and he did it as tastefully as Nuemans policy would warrant-
fuckin boo- hoo- i dont like to see a picture- get over it- get the point
fuckin boo- hoo- i dont like to see a picture- get over it- get the point
R
Recording Engineer
Moderator
Can't say I personally take the Hilter picture with offense at all as some have here... Seems to me, if everyone took as much offense as some of you are taking to it, SNL, all the crazy cats out of SNL, and MANY others, would have never been around for as long as they have/did... But, that's just my point of view and who gives a shit, right?
Fletcher
New member
You guys have way too much time on your hands...
A couple of things that should probably be clarified... when Sennheiser bought Neumann Gmbh and opened Neumann/USA, M-A was one of their original 10 dealers. The management of Neumann/USA contacted us to be a dealer, if I remember correctly, in around 1992 (we sold no new equipment at the time).
At the time, we were a firm that specialized in "vintage" equipment, especially 'vintage microphones'. Over the years they had sent several of their management team/"product specialists" up to M-A to get Neumann history lessons (ironic ain't it).
For the first several years of the relationship between our two firms, M-A sold far more 'vintage Neumann' product than 'new Neumann' product... the ratio, at least dollar wise was probably around 10:1.
So M-A finding the odd 'vintage Neumann' here and there and offering it for purchase is actually a bit more 'in character' than the sale of new Neumann product. It also doesn't directly benefit Neumann/USA, nor Neumann Gmbh.
When Neumann/USA had a major problem with gray market activities... M-A worked with them shoulder to shoulder to help minimize the damage that it was causing (funny how they conveniently forgot that part ain't it).
Right up until last week (Thursday to be exact) Neumann had selected M-A to be one of only 10 dealers in the US for their "Solution D" microphone... but were kind of upset that I said that we'd have to hear it first and evaluate whether or not it would fit with our current offerings [as we do with every product].
Somehow, they were under the impression that because it was a "Neumann" we should blindly accept that it was "great"... did I mention they'd be telling me that they'd send one over for 'evaluation' for the last 2 years? I took a quick listen to one two years ago at an AES show in NYC... at the time it had some pretty major flaws, so I could understand why we hadn't seen one for the last two years... but who knows if they ever fixed those flaws or not... hence why we had to hear it before we'd
add it to the roster.
One of the main reasons you could only find TLM-103's and KM-184's on our site is because the vast majority of the product they are currently manufacturing isn't all that special... the possible exception to that is the M-149 (I wrote a very nice article with some application notes for their website about this mic... in retrospect, I should have charged them, but they were seen as 'family' at the time) and perhaps the M-150 (which they have also refused to send in for "review"... so I am indeed working on 'reputation' when saying that it probably doesn't suck).
Yes, the U-87Ai is indeed probably the most commonly found lg. diaphragm FET condenser on the planet... it is not worth more than $2k, which is what they go for these days. There are 10 microphones that do what they do, as well if not better, that are less expensive, and equally effective. No one in our joint would recommend them, so we didn't stock them.
For the "history lessons", the articles for their website (I actually scribed a couple for them), the assistance on their battle with gray marketing... we were told that if we didn't raise our prices they wouldn't ship us product. Well, whenever anyone gives our firm an 'ultimatum', we always go with the second half. I got on the phone with the president/CEO of Sennheiser [US] (the parent of Neumann/USA) and he berated me about "my language"... [obviously, the brother hadn't read the recent 'Tape Op' interview... oh well...].
As for the picture of the Neumann CMV-3 microphones and the guy with the bad haircut... those microphones have been referred to as "the Hitler mic" long before I became an audio engineer (gee, a little knowledge of Neumann history rearing it's ugly head)... and as for M-A having 'less than competitive prices'... well, we really do... well, not in comparison with many of the 'box houses', but in comparison to other pimps that work with something that approaches our level of knowledge and service... we're damn competitive in the price department.
To that end, we all felt that the TLM-103 was an OK "my first Neumann"... and $650 was about all they were worth. After the price increase [dealer cost went from like $575ish to $632 +/-3db] we were going to raise the price to like $725... but they told us that if we didn't raise our price to $975 (unlike a lot of shops with websites, the prices on our website reflects the actual price of the unit... we don't play "let's make a deal" on the phone... the price on the site is the price... period), they wouldn't ship us product. Well fuck that.
There are a myriad of professional audio equipment dealers throughout the world. Not every dealer is going to be the right dealer for every client. We have never pretended to be the right dealer for every client.
While we're on the subject... while I'm the loud mouthed asshole that kinda plays 'frontman' for the organization, and I am the "buyer" for the firm... our staff extends well beyond me... so all this 'Fletcher this, Fletcher that' is at times rather flattering [or not]... but the fact of the matter is that we are a team of dedicated professionals... it ain't just one asshole [hell, they won't even let me 'write up' orders... I'm not allowed to play with the 'accounting software'].
I hope this clarification serves to clear up any remaining questions about our firm, and what led to our fallout with Neumann/USA.
We're also going to 'sellout' Sennheiser headphones and not 'reorder' [which happen to be an excellent product... but much like Universal Audio isn't permitted in our shop (they lied to us), nor Millennia Media (they fucked the guy that designed several of their products)], we tend to occasionally shoot our selves in the foot by sticking to our twisted sense of "what's right" and "what's wrong"... and voting with our check book.
At the end of the day, we feel like we've "done right" by our clients, and by the designers we represent... and that's really what matters most (at least to us).
A couple of things that should probably be clarified... when Sennheiser bought Neumann Gmbh and opened Neumann/USA, M-A was one of their original 10 dealers. The management of Neumann/USA contacted us to be a dealer, if I remember correctly, in around 1992 (we sold no new equipment at the time).
At the time, we were a firm that specialized in "vintage" equipment, especially 'vintage microphones'. Over the years they had sent several of their management team/"product specialists" up to M-A to get Neumann history lessons (ironic ain't it).
For the first several years of the relationship between our two firms, M-A sold far more 'vintage Neumann' product than 'new Neumann' product... the ratio, at least dollar wise was probably around 10:1.
So M-A finding the odd 'vintage Neumann' here and there and offering it for purchase is actually a bit more 'in character' than the sale of new Neumann product. It also doesn't directly benefit Neumann/USA, nor Neumann Gmbh.
When Neumann/USA had a major problem with gray market activities... M-A worked with them shoulder to shoulder to help minimize the damage that it was causing (funny how they conveniently forgot that part ain't it).
Right up until last week (Thursday to be exact) Neumann had selected M-A to be one of only 10 dealers in the US for their "Solution D" microphone... but were kind of upset that I said that we'd have to hear it first and evaluate whether or not it would fit with our current offerings [as we do with every product].
Somehow, they were under the impression that because it was a "Neumann" we should blindly accept that it was "great"... did I mention they'd be telling me that they'd send one over for 'evaluation' for the last 2 years? I took a quick listen to one two years ago at an AES show in NYC... at the time it had some pretty major flaws, so I could understand why we hadn't seen one for the last two years... but who knows if they ever fixed those flaws or not... hence why we had to hear it before we'd
add it to the roster.
One of the main reasons you could only find TLM-103's and KM-184's on our site is because the vast majority of the product they are currently manufacturing isn't all that special... the possible exception to that is the M-149 (I wrote a very nice article with some application notes for their website about this mic... in retrospect, I should have charged them, but they were seen as 'family' at the time) and perhaps the M-150 (which they have also refused to send in for "review"... so I am indeed working on 'reputation' when saying that it probably doesn't suck).
Yes, the U-87Ai is indeed probably the most commonly found lg. diaphragm FET condenser on the planet... it is not worth more than $2k, which is what they go for these days. There are 10 microphones that do what they do, as well if not better, that are less expensive, and equally effective. No one in our joint would recommend them, so we didn't stock them.
For the "history lessons", the articles for their website (I actually scribed a couple for them), the assistance on their battle with gray marketing... we were told that if we didn't raise our prices they wouldn't ship us product. Well, whenever anyone gives our firm an 'ultimatum', we always go with the second half. I got on the phone with the president/CEO of Sennheiser [US] (the parent of Neumann/USA) and he berated me about "my language"... [obviously, the brother hadn't read the recent 'Tape Op' interview... oh well...].
As for the picture of the Neumann CMV-3 microphones and the guy with the bad haircut... those microphones have been referred to as "the Hitler mic" long before I became an audio engineer (gee, a little knowledge of Neumann history rearing it's ugly head)... and as for M-A having 'less than competitive prices'... well, we really do... well, not in comparison with many of the 'box houses', but in comparison to other pimps that work with something that approaches our level of knowledge and service... we're damn competitive in the price department.
To that end, we all felt that the TLM-103 was an OK "my first Neumann"... and $650 was about all they were worth. After the price increase [dealer cost went from like $575ish to $632 +/-3db] we were going to raise the price to like $725... but they told us that if we didn't raise our price to $975 (unlike a lot of shops with websites, the prices on our website reflects the actual price of the unit... we don't play "let's make a deal" on the phone... the price on the site is the price... period), they wouldn't ship us product. Well fuck that.
There are a myriad of professional audio equipment dealers throughout the world. Not every dealer is going to be the right dealer for every client. We have never pretended to be the right dealer for every client.
While we're on the subject... while I'm the loud mouthed asshole that kinda plays 'frontman' for the organization, and I am the "buyer" for the firm... our staff extends well beyond me... so all this 'Fletcher this, Fletcher that' is at times rather flattering [or not]... but the fact of the matter is that we are a team of dedicated professionals... it ain't just one asshole [hell, they won't even let me 'write up' orders... I'm not allowed to play with the 'accounting software'].
I hope this clarification serves to clear up any remaining questions about our firm, and what led to our fallout with Neumann/USA.
We're also going to 'sellout' Sennheiser headphones and not 'reorder' [which happen to be an excellent product... but much like Universal Audio isn't permitted in our shop (they lied to us), nor Millennia Media (they fucked the guy that designed several of their products)], we tend to occasionally shoot our selves in the foot by sticking to our twisted sense of "what's right" and "what's wrong"... and voting with our check book.
At the end of the day, we feel like we've "done right" by our clients, and by the designers we represent... and that's really what matters most (at least to us).
Fletcher
New member
I reckon I should probably add that my circumcision wasn't for 'cosmetic purposes'... I am of German/Austrian Jewish descent and have family members that were directly involved with the atrocities of that period in history... however, I didn't make the microphones that appear in that photograph... and like it or not, they are indeed Neumann microphones... there are times when we need to remember the derivation of corporate culture. I think this is one of those times... but your mileage may vary.
Shailat
New member
Fletcher said:
I'm sorry but your going to have to prove it if you want us to believe that part... !.
Like I said before, You might be right and your stand against them justified, but the picture is still rather taseless considering it all not becuase its brash but imagine every company who uses tactics we disagree with ..... so now were going to start calling every company nazis and hitlers? be that the case I would call a 1/4 of the company's I came across as nazies... unless they are reacting to the fact that you are jewish......THAT is a different matter ?
Other then that it is a rare to see businesses with integrity these days. Thats should be appreiciated
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Track Rat
Just Your Average Sized Member
Tastless is in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I think it's hilarious.
Rossi
New member
I don't see what's funny about Fletcher's reaction. He's just very, very unprofessional. And not quite honest either, I suspect. If he wants to sell for less, why dosn't he simply sell at Neumann's price and throw in a few cables, a shock mount, whatever?
Neumann's practice has nothing to do with "terror." In fact, it's a faily common practice; Mesa Boogie have fixed prices, too (at least in Europe, don't know about the US). Does that make them audio Nazis? No, I suppose not. Why? Because they're an American company. You know, whenever people have difficulties with a German position (even though there's nothing specifically German about it), they're always quick to make Nazi comparisons. Why? Because it puts an end to the discussion, no further arguments necessary.
If you read the letter on Fletcher's page, you'll find that he apparently was very abusive in a telephone conversation with Neumann USA. Neumann in response ended their business relationship with Fletcher. You don't quit business with a well known dealer over a small trifle. Fletcher must have used very strong language. Perhaps it was also in response to Fletcher's Hitler comparisons on his web page, although I don't see that mentioned in the letter, so I don't think they knew about that.
I think Fletcher's "terror" accusations and Hitler comparisons are extremely inappropriate and historically incorrect. Does Fletcher mean to imply that Neumann will break his legs or take his life if he acted against their "regime"? Does he mean to imply that Neumann employees are Nazis, anti-Semites? I hope not. What I think he wants to convey is that he's a free thinker, a rebel, a hero. "Look at me, I'm SO cool, here's my Harley Davidson. Fuck BMW."
To me Fletcher has always been a borderline case between "cool guy" and "opinionated asshole." I guess my decision's made now.
Now, a few of you might think, "Well he doesn't get the humor because he's German." But what would you think if a foreign dealer made uncalled-for connections between an American product (Shure, Fender, Harley Davidson, whatever) and any of the bleak spots in American history (slaughter of Indians, slavery, McCarthy era, whatever)? See? There's nothing funny about stuff like that.
It is true (and a well known fact) that Hitler used Neumann microphones. But so what? You can't blame the microphones for the holocaust. Will you burn your Shure SM58s once you see a picture of Sadam using one? What about Stalin and those wonderful Russian microphones?
P.S. (after reading Fletcher's replies):
It's sad that Fletcher, although apparently of Jewish decent, shows so little concern for trivializing the Nazi era and its victims with his petty microphone stuff.
Neumann's practice has nothing to do with "terror." In fact, it's a faily common practice; Mesa Boogie have fixed prices, too (at least in Europe, don't know about the US). Does that make them audio Nazis? No, I suppose not. Why? Because they're an American company. You know, whenever people have difficulties with a German position (even though there's nothing specifically German about it), they're always quick to make Nazi comparisons. Why? Because it puts an end to the discussion, no further arguments necessary.
If you read the letter on Fletcher's page, you'll find that he apparently was very abusive in a telephone conversation with Neumann USA. Neumann in response ended their business relationship with Fletcher. You don't quit business with a well known dealer over a small trifle. Fletcher must have used very strong language. Perhaps it was also in response to Fletcher's Hitler comparisons on his web page, although I don't see that mentioned in the letter, so I don't think they knew about that.
I think Fletcher's "terror" accusations and Hitler comparisons are extremely inappropriate and historically incorrect. Does Fletcher mean to imply that Neumann will break his legs or take his life if he acted against their "regime"? Does he mean to imply that Neumann employees are Nazis, anti-Semites? I hope not. What I think he wants to convey is that he's a free thinker, a rebel, a hero. "Look at me, I'm SO cool, here's my Harley Davidson. Fuck BMW."
To me Fletcher has always been a borderline case between "cool guy" and "opinionated asshole." I guess my decision's made now.
Now, a few of you might think, "Well he doesn't get the humor because he's German." But what would you think if a foreign dealer made uncalled-for connections between an American product (Shure, Fender, Harley Davidson, whatever) and any of the bleak spots in American history (slaughter of Indians, slavery, McCarthy era, whatever)? See? There's nothing funny about stuff like that.
It is true (and a well known fact) that Hitler used Neumann microphones. But so what? You can't blame the microphones for the holocaust. Will you burn your Shure SM58s once you see a picture of Sadam using one? What about Stalin and those wonderful Russian microphones?
P.S. (after reading Fletcher's replies):
It's sad that Fletcher, although apparently of Jewish decent, shows so little concern for trivializing the Nazi era and its victims with his petty microphone stuff.
D
DJL
Self Banned
Me too, and as a consumer I support Mercenary Audio and the boycott agaisnt the Neumann/Sennheiser crap... and the Hitler Neumann picture is a classic.Track Rat said:
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ausrock
Well-known member
TERRORISM. n. The systematic use of violence and intimidation to achieve political ends.
QUOTE:............."I think Fletcher's "terror" accusations and Hitler comparisons are extremely inappropriate and historically incorrect. "
QUOTE:............."I think Fletcher's "terror" accusations and Hitler comparisons are extremely inappropriate and historically incorrect. "
Gidge
Lapdance Test Dummy
I saw a cartoon of Jesus and those other guys up on the cross...one of them is saying something to the effect "A carpenter with all those fucking tools and he cant get us down"....As a Christian I guess I would agree that it is bad taste, but did i laugh?....Hell ya .......
so Fletcher, yeah the ad was tasteless, but it was so fuckin hilarious.....and thanks to Larry Flynt you can get away with it......
MIKE
so Fletcher, yeah the ad was tasteless, but it was so fuckin hilarious.....and thanks to Larry Flynt you can get away with it......
MIKE
Scooter B
New member
RE:Tastless is in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I think it's hilarious.
Personally I find the profanity much more disturbing than the Hitler picture and I support Fletcher's right (and reason) to boycott.
Even though I have never purchased from Mercenary this whole history lesson makes me want to boycot Senheiser as far as any new products go.
Personally I find the profanity much more disturbing than the Hitler picture and I support Fletcher's right (and reason) to boycott.
Even though I have never purchased from Mercenary this whole history lesson makes me want to boycot Senheiser as far as any new products go.