I'm writing my degree on the U47 and need your help

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md431

md431

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Hi all,

I'm writing my bachelor thesis on the Type-47 mics, specifically the sound aesthetic expectation towards those mics. For this I have part 1 of 2 surveys that I'm looking for participants for.

If you have 5 minutes to help me out, I would very much appreciate it!
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Sound aestethic presumptions and expectancies in Type 47 Microphones

The original vintage Neumann U47* could be described as the archetype of a "legendary microphone". But what do you expect to hear from U47s or their replicas? What are your experiences? Does it generally match the actual recordings and how can we distinguish various models? To answer this is...
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Basically I want to find out, what people think about and expect when they think of U47s and replicas. As this is about gut feelings, presumptions and expectations, I'm interested in both engieneers, who had the chance to use originals and replicas as well as people who have only heard (about) them!

In a later part of the thesis I'm planning to do 1) measurements in an anechoic chamber as well as 2) a recording of female vocals, drums and double bass with the following setup.

- a vintage U47
- a micparts V47 with Thiersch M7
- an identical V47 with matched K47
- a Stam Audio 47f with matched K47 and identical grille to the V47
- a modern Neumann U47 Fet
- a Sennheiser MKH 8040 as reference microphone

All mics on the same take through RME preamps.

These will be part of a second survey and blind test. In the end I'll compare the results to the expectation and see how they match up. Also, while I'm at it I'm looking at the difference the capsule (M7 vs K47) and the circuit (tube vs. FET) make, as well as how engineers expect to distinguish them. Hopefully the second survey will be ready in a couple weeks.

I'm more then happy to share results as soon as I have them here. If you have any practical or reading suggestions (historic documents, biographies...) too, let me know!

In any case, thanks for reading this far and even more so if you took part in my survey, I truly appreciate it.

PS: please don't tear me to shreds🥲 . I know it would be great to extend the trials but there are some practical, timewise and most importantly financial limits I can't stretch, so I'm trying to make the most of what I can do. Of course I'm happy for suggestions! Also I'm aware that many vintage U47s sound slightly different (and if that is so, the data should reflect that!), but yet we still have some kind of understanding of "what a 47 sounds like". That's what I try to find out!
 
I'd lean more engineering and specs and oscope comparisons. Capsules, thickness of gold sputter, design distances and measurements. Transformers and tubes etc..etc..measurable items. Specs, anechoic chambers.

Blind Tests are great fun and equally if not more important but ears are so subjective, young ears vs old ears etc. Rooms, and old vintage years of preamps and tube consoles the u47 were designed on and for.

Yes, it is interesting how and why does it and did it become the infamous mic it is....best of luck.

here's a good article
 
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Its an interesting idea, but will the results just confirm we all make very subjective choices. I remember being a lowly illness cover assistant for some sessions where the engineer in charge was swapping mics. I knew little of the theory or history. I was simply given a mic and told to set it up, and through a speaker, to orient and adjust. I then stood silently back in the control room and detected ……. Nothing. Just a tone shift that i thought, back then, could have been done with the EQ? The older and wiser folk in the room sagely nodded and said things like cleaner, better, etc and on some instruments, they commented about clarity. I heard none of these things. I did hear changes in the hiss level, and sometimes vibrations. I got to stick foam pads under mic stand legs as a consequence of the vibrations. Some of the descriptors in your survey, i had never actually hear before. Warm and hard i got, some of the others were odd word choices. Im looking forward to the blind tests. I rsther hope your research is totally inconclusive, which i suspect will be the result. I rather suspect that the key feature will be age related. My prediction is the two modern mics with alternate diaphragm clamping will be the same if the sample size is big enough.

I suspect it will produce some very contradictory and random data as the objective data has to be scientific test results. The human results will be trend based and very objective. Unless, maybe, you remove age from the recordings. Using something like an orchestra gives the same source and quality aim that has not changed since recording started. Things like double bass have changed the ‘sound’ that is wanted drastically. In ww2 the perfect double bass was a tuned thud and a downwards extension of the low part. Top end was unnecessary and if present, perhaps even a problem? Then it became percussive with some jazz, then went more mellow, and now is brighter again. The test, if done in 1950 would favour the mics that captured the era. Do it again in the 80s and that excellent mic would perhaps be horrible.

Exactly the same problem has happened when people review instruments from different eras. Objectivity is so difficult as tastes and likes evolve. You can stick a flat response measurement mic on critical sources and generate an objective and repeatable result for analysis. NONE of us use these mics for music, because they sound horrible. They dont. They sound very truthful, but that is not musical. Maybe when you do your test recordings, include an analysis mic with tuned flat response, and measure the deviation from perfect, in your recording space. See if this produces differences you can detect, like the mylar clamping?
 
Hi, thanks so much for your replies.

@CoolCat I'd love to go more technical, but I'm not sure the people I rent the U47 from will be too happy with me poking around the inside. In all fairness, I don't (yet) have the technical understanding how to come to conclusions from the data gathered when measuring tubes, transformers etc. other than "this one is different to the other".

But I will measure the frequency range at as well as the pickup pattern at 85, 90 and 95db SPL in our anechoic chamber. Hopefully something interesting turns up. And if not all the better, putting less emphasis on the need of a vintage 47 (other than loving old gear).


@rob aylestone Yes, the choice is very much subjective and the previous experiences everyone will have had are too. So in theory, the data from this survey should be somewhat strewn, especially the description of the microphones character. I'll certainly come to some conclusion, though if it will be "people know exactly what they expect and can pick that out in a blind test" I can't tell yet. My bet is, that the differences between mics will be subtler than one might think.

Unfortunately I haven't recorded participants age in this survey and can't alter it now. But I might add that parameter to the blind test to see if there's some deviation - thanks for the tip!

Regarding the expected sound qualities in certain times that is something I'm thinking about.As a recording I have chosen "Dream a little Dream of me" in the version of Doris Day, purposefully in an small combo instrumentation. Many of the famed U47 recordings were done around between 1950-1970 in similar arrangements, so hopefully the song plays into that a little. To me it would be odd to choose a modern pop production as a comparison point, though it would be just as valid. Maybe it would be an interesting contrast point to do both, but I'm not sure I can fit it in in my time frame. I'd love to stick all the mics infront of an orchestra, but I'm not sure I can pull it off because I have only one weekend for all recordings and technical measurements.

Thinking about it, I might go with an DPA 4006, Schoeps MK4 or simply a measurement mic as "neutral" reference mic instead of the 8040.
 
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This thread got me reading on the U47, great gearhead history and legacy.
One thread got into pricing and then its more psychology vs cash and ....it becomes like Art.
And the U47 seems to have achieved that and so the prices can go to the moon as its treated as Art and every year less U47's available, due to no repair parts, and rarity increases.

I read the generations change the items to collect. Its similar to the Art theory, and example, preWW2 generation might have collected other collectibles, where this generations wealthy had money to blow choosing old Rock Concert Posters and Les Paul guitars instead of previous generations maybe collecting
wooden tables and lanterns and so this added to the price increases of U47, Fender Tele 1958 etc...

its an interesting topic of why the U47? why of all the other mics did the U47 become the "holy grail".

You'll be getting some good time with a U47 that in itself should be interesting. I hope you post it all here, as you go.
 
I just think the photos of John Lennon singing into one and then hearing the record he sang on it with pretty much sums up the sound.

I’ve had the pleasure of using an original U47 and two U67’s in a studio I ran in the early 80’s.

Currently, I own a few ADK mics including their U47 clone and their U67 clone. I also own a matched set of Lawson mics with interchangeable U47 and ELAM 250 capsules. The ADK Z67 is my all time favorite mic and sounds incredible on vocals and acoustic instruments.

I highly suggest studying the life and career of Al Schmitt. He was the world’s foremost expert when it comes to mics and mic placement. You should read his book before you write your thesis.

https://www.amazon.com/Al-Schmitt-R...ocphy=1022588&hvtargid=pla-530350450732&psc=1


en.wikipedia.org

Al Schmitt - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
Hi @Scott Baxendale thanks for the tip. I've certainly got Al Schmitt on the list, same with George Martin, Geoff Emrick and a few others if time allows regarding their favoured use of the 47.

I will post updates as I go along!
 
MD431, I don't know that these aged ears have the ability to discern the subtleties for your test, but I look forward to trying.

For an interesting read, this is an original BBC report on the U47 from 1954. You can download the full report. I find their comments very interesting, especially in light of the legendary status of the U47. It might be of use in your thesis as a bit of background.

In some respects, I find that many of these types of items are as much hype as it is performance. The Klon Centaur, 59 Les Paul, early 60s Strats, Dumbles are others that get endless hype, as if everyone forgot how to make a guitar, mic or pedal the next day. Then pricing goes insanely high, which just adds to the legend. The next step is that people endlessly try to replicate the "magic", yet all fall short. You get endless comparisons, but there's always a fatal flaw in the newcomer. The fact that these items are in limited supply or have parts that are no longer available means that they become like Picasso paintings or Michaelanglo sculptures.

The fact that mics like the U47 were used on so many recordings were as much due to the limited options of the day as to their "perfect sound". No doubt the U47 was an very good microphone, arguably better that other mics of the day, but the number of available candidates in the late 40s and early 50s weren't all that great. You had ribbons like the RCA 44 and 77 which were very widely used, AKG C12, and Sennheiser MD421. Shure microphones like the Unidyne 55, the Altec 639B and EV's 664 were also used, but were more for PA/live vocal use. When you have maybe a dozen professsional candidates, it's easy to pick the best of the bunch.

On the other hand, as you have found out, today there are more than a dozen "U47" style mics alone. It would almost be sacrilege to say that one of these is actually better sounding than the original, which might actually happen with a blind test.
 
Hi @TalismanRich massive thanks! This is a great resource, I will be having a look at it. Looking at historically available gear is a great perspective too. I'm sure if they'd had affordable decent Mics like Lewitt, Austrian Audio etc. things would look different today. In some cases the low quality recording compromises transfer to todays desirability in sound, e.g. Punk having no problem sounding a bit flatter in the low-end than full-range fusion jazz. In the case of U47s and old consoles, they surley had some part in how we accept (and expect) more saturation and distortion on loud vocal takes in certain genres
 
Something you might also find interesting. I was looking at a 1954 issue of Audio magazine to see what types of microphones were available, and pricing. The U47 was listed at $390 for the mic/PS and cable. An RCA 44BX was $129 and the 77D was $145. A Shure Model 51 dynamic cost $47.50. The Model 55S was $73. There were a few other mic manufacturers like American Microphones, Capps, Reeves and EV.


The U47 was on the cover of Audio magazine in Oct 1951.


I think a historical perspective would be valuable in a thesis.


I also think that saturation and distortion was the antithesis of recording in the past. No self respecting audio engineer of the 40s or 50s was looking for saturation and distortion until rock groups began to experiment with distortion as an effect in the 60s.
 
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thats some funny interesting old articles.."U 47, produced by the firm of Neumann in Berlin, incorporates the capsule originally designed for the type M 49 microphone but uses a cheaper form of head amplifier."

Cheaper.?!!ouch!

The new budget mic... U47? lol

sounds like a TLM103 review of today.

good stuff.
 
I thought that was an interesting comment. Instead of "Neumann has refined it's design to the pinnacle of reproduction" it was a "cheaper" design. And the price was 5.5 times the price of an Shure 55s. You can get a present day 55SH for $200, so a U-47 should cost around $1100, right? It appears that Neumann is just ripping people off! 😜
 
I have an older U47. I use it for outside kick and sometimes in videos.
 
I used to own a vintage U47 and a matched set of U67’s. I loved them. My ADK Z-67 is just as good if not better.
 
Scott Baxendale said:
I used to own a vintage U47 and a matched set of U67’s. I loved them. My ADK Z-67 is just as good if not better.
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That’s the rub - there are many less expensive microphones than trying to get a U47 in working condition - and considering that a Matched Pari of Vintage U67s
are going to run close to $32K - we can get a whole slew of new Microphones that do as well or better than the vintage stuff.

I won’t get into how vintage can sound different - I scratch my head when people buy them.
 
Papanate said:
That’s the rub - there are many less expensive microphones than trying to get a U47 in working condition - and considering that a Matched Pari of Vintage U67s
are going to run close to $32K - we can get a whole slew of new Microphones that do as well or better than the vintage stuff.

I won’t get into how vintage can sound different - I scratch my head when people buy them.
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Vintage mics all have their individual charm. I also don’t think it’s that complicated to keep them working well, but modern boutique mics, preamps, tube guitar amps, pedals, etc can all cover the bases that great vintage stuff does but at a much lower cost with generally more reliability. I’ll take a new API 2448 console over a vintage one that’s twice as expensive and much more of a maintenance headache.
 
Hopefully, the OP will stick around, and maybe even share some of the results from his thesis.

For those of who have used vintage 47s and some of the reproductions/clones, have any of you filled out his part one questionaire?
 
@Scott Baxendale absolutley agree on the new vs. vintage stuff. I'd be too scared to use the damn thing if I happend to have a vintage 47. They're becoming more and more museum pieces I reckon, especialy because of the VF14. Then again, the Vox-O-Rama Clone that is highly praised, is 7000€ too (and expensive to fix, if you knock it over as ....someone...found out). But yeah, in general, there's a lot of very decent stuff around today that's so easier to (get) service(d). I think I'll better pick up soldering on modern surface mount circuit boards at some point though..

@TalismanRich I'm sticking around! Quietly soldering away on the replicas. Will go and test the first one later, fingers crossed nothing blows up
 
I wonder if Neumann stashed away some mint U47 in the vault, to reference or use later?

ambitious to build Tube mic kits, sounds fun....good luck.
 
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