High end recording gear vs high end audiophile listening gear.

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Scott Baxendale

Scott Baxendale

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Every time I go into a high end audiophile store I’m always confused by the juxtaposition between the gear used to record a HiFI record and the ultra high end gear being sold to listen back. So, for example, a music source is recorded through a Neumann U47 into a Neve 1076 preamp with a API 550 EQ and a 1176 compressor. This signal chain is considered about as high end as it gets. That entire high end chain is under $10k worth of audio gear. But the audiophile will buy the record recorded with that gear and then play it back on gear costing ten times as much with $50,000 mono block tube preamps and $10,000 phono cartridges on a turntable that looks like it’s from a science fiction laboratory.

To me at some point the playback system becomes more of an illusion than a sound. I would think Neve and API would want make audiophile listening systems based on their circuit designs and create a niche in that market too?
 
Audiiophiles are after a different experience that Musicians - sometimes it meets - like with Steely Dan’s Aja - most of the time it doesn’t - guys with top end systems
are kind of boring to me - they miss the point of music - for example I don’t care if I hear the Slight Squeak of the Chair by the Third Violinist -
 
Audiiophiles are after a different experience that Musicians - sometimes it meets - like with Steely Dan’s Aja - most of the time it doesn’t - guys with top end systems
are kind of boring to me - they miss the point of music - for example I don’t care if I hear the Slight Squeak of the Chair by the Third Violinist -
Yeah, I get that it’s a different experience. But we clearly heard the chair squeak on our measly Neve chain when we mixed the record, which is sort of my point.

Wouldn't, or shouldn’t hearing it back on essentially the same chain as it was recorded on be the ultimate listening experience for the audiophile on playback, Rather than creating these massive million dollar audiophile playback systems and rooms?

Wouldn’t it be better for them to try recreate more of the studio control room or mastering room kind of listening experience?
 
If I had the time and money I could see myself becoming an audiophile.

I've seen McIntosh amps in control rooms and companies like Manley do make audiophile gear, so there is a bit of a crossover there. I see where you're coming from, and it would kind of make sense for companies to expand their product lines but there's probably more money to be made in the prosumer market than in the audiophile market.

The bigger names (UA, Neve, SSL) have been releasing a lot of entry-level products. There's probably more ROI than going after the high-end audiophile markets.
 
In my opinion it’s never going to sound as good as it did in the studio. When it gets that final stamp of approval, that’s as good as it’s gonna get.
But that only applies to the product of professionals.

If it was my stuff in my studio it could always be better. But I doubt high end audiophile equipment would do that.

Now, where are my oxygen free speaker cables and my $10, 000 crystal risers to keep the cables off the floor. :D
 
Scott, you're just looking at the front end cost for recording. The pair of Genelecs on the corners of the desk might be another $3K each, and those ATC monitors on the wall could be $20k per pair.

Plus, I think the audiofiles are probably trying to get a different experience than the people who are making and mixing the music. They say they want things transparent, but more likely they don't want to hear the sound warts and all. In the studio you WANT to hear the warts, so you can fix or remove them.

And in your living room, it's got to be pretty. Basic industrial black would get very little "wife approval factor". You can also factor in the crazy part, with $10000 speaker cables, $2000 power cables (like 3 ft of fancy 120v cable is going to improve power after going thru 100 ft of std Romex cable in the wall and the 200 ft of wire coming from the pole to the distribution box!). There's a lot more voodoo in the audiofile world than in the recording world.
 
Scott, you're just looking at the front end cost for recording. The pair of Genelecs on the corners of the desk might be another $3K each, and those ATC monitors on the wall could be $20k per pair.

Plus, I think the audiofiles are probably trying to get a different experience than the people who are making and mixing the music. They say they want things transparent, but more likely they don't want to hear the sound warts and all. In the studio you WANT to hear the warts, so you can fix or remove them.

And in your living room, it's got to be pretty. Basic industrial black would get very little "wife approval factor". You can also factor in the crazy part, with $10000 speaker cables, $2000 power cables (like 3 ft of fancy 120v cable is going to improve power after going thru 100 ft of std Romex cable in the wall and the 200 ft of wire coming from the pole to the distribution box!). There's a lot more voodoo in the audiofile world than in the recording world.
I still think this would sound as good in the control room of a studio listening to the mix, off the gear it was recorded on. As in a stereo system such as featured here:

 
If I had the time and money I could see myself becoming an audiophile.

I've seen McIntosh amps in control rooms and companies like Manley do make audiophile gear, so there is a bit of a crossover there. I see where you're coming from, and it would kind of make sense for companies to expand their product lines but there's probably more money to be made in the prosumer market than in the audiophile market.

The bigger names (UA, Neve, SSL) have been releasing a lot of entry-level products. There's probably more ROI than going after the high-end audiophile markets.
I think McIntosh and Manley are on the same level of Neve and Api, rather than the super high end audiophile systems. I’m thinking more like this:

IMG_3011.webp


 
On the Audiophile aspect…….

I had a friend who was into that. He wired up his speakers with extra heavy duty monster cable (or something like that) Got all gold connectors too.
He rewired the speakers internally with the same wire. Oh damn was he proud of that! Not a skinny wire to be found.

Then……..to be safe mind you, he wired in a fast blow fuse. You know, the single wire inside the glass tube almost as thin as a human hair.

Kind of defeated the purpose of all this expensive wiring. He wasn’t too happy when I pointed that out to him. :LOL:
 
I think McIntosh and Manley are on the same level of Neve and Api, rather than the super high end audiophile systems. I’m thinking more like this:

View attachment 142989

Both of those rooms look well treated too.

Now don’t get me wrong when I might make fun of the ‘Audiophile stuff’. If you’re sincerely interested in music, buy the best gear you can afford. Enjoy it and let the rest of the world be happy with their Apple AirPods.
 
Both of those rooms look well treated too.

Now don’t get me wrong when I might make fun of the ‘Audiophile stuff’. If you’re sincerely interested in music, buy the best gear you can afford. Enjoy it and let the rest of the world be happy with their Apple AirPods.
I’ve been in the perfect room in Blackbird Studio in Nashville and they had a API console in there. I’m not sure it gets better than this?

IMG_3012.webp
 
Both of those rooms look well treated too.

Now don’t get me wrong when I might make fun of the ‘Audiophile stuff’. If you’re sincerely interested in music, buy the best gear you can afford. Enjoy it and let the rest of the world be happy with their Apple AirPods.
As an addendum to this post, let me say this. I’m glad there are people like that keeping the love of listening to music alive.

Too many now are totally content with shitty music played on shitty systems. We’re in the earbud age and for most, the highest fidelity they’ll ever know is the audio system in their cars. And while driving, that’s probably the only time they’ll be sitting down listening.

Gone are the days when you had some friends over just to listen on a good system whatever brand new album you just bought.
 
Audiophoolia is beyond crazy. The idea started out with the best intentions. "The closest approach to the original sound" but then the beardy,tweaky subjectivists invaded the scene and I gave up reading Hi Fi News, the last bastion of scientific writing on matters audio about 20 years ago. I had been reading HFN and other hi fi mags for 30* years before that.

As for a turntable and Mcintoish amps being "as good as the best studio rig"? Balderdash. The distortion coming out of a well setup Studer or Scully should peak at about 1%. No vinyl system can get close to that. I shall look up Mc amp specs if I can but I doubt they are better than 0.1% thd at full power. Studio monitor solid state amps will be at least two orders better than that for the top kit and we all know top digital converters are easily another order better again.

That that TT/Mc rig is very nice to listen to I have no doubt but its performance is woefully behind even basic project studio gear...still if it keeps 'em happy?

*And in all that time I do not recall reading one line about room treatment? Something which most here will know is BASIC to getting a good listening environment.


Dave.
 
In the studio, it is about concealing. Removing the annoyances, leaving what the artist, engineer and producers want. In the home arena for these people, it's about revealing. I view these people the same way I view model railway and fishing folk. Well meaning, clearly happy with what they do and willing to spend vast amounts of money on a hobby. Hobby's do this to you. In fact, we do the same when we talk guitars, or other 'enhancing' devices - in particular, pre-amps and interfaces, so we are not immune to it.

What really does annoy me is that the less well informed get suckered, PT Barnum style, all the time. The thing above about the speaker cables and fuses. Hi-Fi folk take a bit of genuine physic and mangle it. The gold plated fuses that make huge differences, but they ignore half a mile buried aluminium cable going to the local substation. Maths wise - the contribution of the home wiring is tiny, and an inch of fuse unmeasurable and undetectable. Not to their ears, of course. They're been systematically ripped off.

For a moment, forget the recording chain. Forget our usual microphones. Select a mic and select the device that converts it to digital. We could choose something like an early Neumann with tubes - but let's not. The most transparent microphone would be the one with the least components that could be distorted in some way. A ribbon. A wiggling bit of metal, a magnet and a transformer. Dynamics have more moving parts - membranes connected to coils that have supports, so more complicated. Condensers have electronics, so the ribbon mic is the purest we have. Let us ignore all the popular preamps and visit a laboratory who have preamps capable of having gain, but almost undetectable levels of distortion. THAT is the 'best' quality. We do the recording in a desert, on a day with no wind, and nothing in every direction for 100 miles. We now have the purest chain possible. Would the hifi community be able to make it better in any measurable way? To them, yes - but how about us?

Frankly, I think audiophiles are loonies. Deluded at the extremes, just a bit odd at the mainstream. However, they're happy. We will never agree on the outrageous claims, but we could say the same about great painters. I can understand paintings that look real - but I struggle with impressionists and as for the weird stuff, I don't get it at all.

I look at those listening room images and laugh. I listened to the monitoring system that the Beatles used to record some ground breaking stuff. They sounded terrible by current standards. When the hifi brigade listen to the recording, it's not remotely what the Abbey Road people were hearing, and creating on. Thus, I feel the hifi people are interested in revealing.
 
I am not sure the recording industry (or the broadcasters) started off "concealing" Rob? The 'purists' recording a small classical or jazz group would probably use a crossed pair, your ribbons most likely. Played back on suitable speakers that would give a very accurate rendition of the performance.
Of course, the recording would need to be done in a very good sounding space and playback in a well treated one. You are essentially trying to recreate what a live listener would experience in the room with the players.

Once the musical forces become greater, an orchestra say, then although the main sound would be captured by a stereo pair (a la BBC) 'spot mics' will be needed to get a proper final balance. Pre multitrack this was the really skilled part of the "balancer's" job.

With the growth of the Pop industry money and fame became more important than performance fidelity and the product was 'constructed' for maximum acoustic impact, especially for radio play! Thus any idea of accurate reproduction of an original 'event' became pointless.

Don't get me wrong! I love what the Beatles, Zep, Floyd &Co have done! Just not "real" like a Bach sonata COULD be.

Dave.
 
I deal with Pro Audio Design when I need gear or service. Some of the studio monitors they sell for $70,000+.

I've listened to some of these and they're pretty incredible. Not speakers I would want but they're out there and some studios have them.

 
I've heard some really nice sounding high end systems. Yeah, they did things that my puny IMFs/Bryston/Rega system couldn't do. But they also cost more than 3 years of my wages (this was in the 80s).

On the other hand, it's like the person buying a new Ferrari or McLaren. Do you really need a Ferarri SF90XX at $900,000 to get from point A to point B. And how do you take your girlfriend and 2 sets of golf clubs in that Ferrari? Do you really need a mansion with 20 bedrooms, 30 baths and 3 pools?

Jim Irsay bought Kurt Cobain's D-18 for $6 Million. Does it sound 2000 times better than the one hanging on the wall at GuitarCenter for $3000?

At some point, the money doesn't mean anything like it would to you and me. The system in the video has lots of one of a kind, hand built and personally designed equipment, so it's going to be pricey. Call Ferrari and ask them to design and build you a totally new car from ground up and see how much it costs.


When money means so little, the price really doesn't matter.
 
Too many now are totally content with shitty music played on shitty systems. We’re in the earbud age and for most, the highest fidelity they’ll ever know is the audio system in their cars. And while driving, that’s probably the only time they’ll be sitting down listening.
I think it’s always kinda been this way. Non musical people always listened on shitty playback systems, and we heard music in the car.
 
Audiophoolia is beyond crazy. The idea started out with the best intentions. "The closest approach to the original sound" but then the beardy,tweaky subjectivists invaded the scene and I gave up reading Hi Fi News, the last bastion of scientific writing on matters audio about 20 years ago. I had been reading HFN and other hi fi mags for 30* years before that.
This goes to my original point. If the record was originally recorded and mixed through Neve preamps shouldn’t the best playback experience also be through those same type of Neve preamps? That monitor is mounted on a swivel arm and is just pushed in front of that speaker for the photo. The engineer can position that monitor anywhere he wants over the console.
 
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