Intonation on cheap and expensive guitars

  • Thread starter Thread starter GT
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OK cute. First, for the record, a worn fret raises the pitch, not lowers it. A worn fret is wider, and a wider fret might as well be a narrow one that's slightly higher up on the neck.

I don't argue with anything Tom said earlier, but it just doesn't explain all the intonation differences which exist. That analogy with columns of air doesn't apply, so if you can come at me from a different direction I'm all ears. Also, your string mass statement has a minor problem which kept me from following. You stated, "When you touch your finger lightly to a string to produce a harmonic, you have halved the distance but NOT THE MASS. The string "senses" this excess mass.."

Wait a minute; I think you implied that the mass didn't change so what is this excess mass you're referring to? The finger? Help me out here.

There is at least one nut mfr and another fret mfr which attempts to compensate for the hoaky g-string problem. I will have to go back to the old post and dig this out.

Also for the record, and I don't want anyone to take offense, I believe we should be saying "intoned". Saying "intonated" is as bad as saying "orientated". NG!
 
I wonder if it would be posible to have the second fret repositioned, any thoughts?
 
My explainations fall short because I'm an "artistic" type with practical experience rather than an engineer type with precise terminology.Let me try again to make my point.
First,all refences to fret height,"string flexure" (an attempt to compensate for poor finger-placement technique),fret width and so forth all refer to various DEFECTS.A defective guitar cannot be intonated properly.For example a twisted neck;no amount of saddle adjustment or anything else will help in this case.I am referring to intonating a guitar with no defects,straight neck,good fret job,saddles mechanically functional,etc.
Ok,here's the tricky bit again.A harmonic is defined as an overtone the exact multiple of the fundamental.This is ok if you play flute for example.The mass of vibrating air is exactly halved in producing harmonics so the pitch is exactly a multiple of the root.But with a guitar string(or piano and almost everything else),the mass of the string is NOT HALVED when playing a harmonic,it stays the same, so the pitch is measureably off.
The technique developed to compensate for this difference is called streach tuning,and has been in use by piano tuners for a very long time.With middle C as the start point,they streach the tempering a bit so that the descending notes grow gradually flat while the ascending pitches are sharped.
The mysteries of this subject aren't often discussed with clarity.I never heard any of it in music school,for example.But I would certainly recommend a study of piano tuning to all those guys who want to nudge their cranky guitars a little closer to the ideal of playing "in tune".Those who know what they are doing should intonate with every string change (using a tuner accurate at least to + or - one cent).Those who find it too mysterious should develop a relationship with a local guitar reparman/technician.
regards
Tom
 
OK, as far as fret misalignment problems go on mass produced guitars, just look at the old post on this subject and see how many people complained about it (and not just Gibsons or Fenders either).

GT: regarding fret repositioning, there is at least one manufacturer which installs a replacement 2nd fret that has a small U shaped bow in it for the A note. You would have to see it to believe it, and I cannot locate the link someone sent which illustrates this design.

Another method is illustrated here, and notice that the problematic G-string has the most pronounced foreshortening at the nut:

http://www.earvana.com/

Another solution is the fanned fret design shown here:

http://www.novaxguitars.com/

And then of course there is the old buzz system which has spurred much discussion on this forum. I have no experience with any of these; but I do seek to learn how and why they correct the problem.

One response for Tom: you refer to string flexure compensation of fretted notes as a guitar "defect", and that this results from "poor finger placement technique". No matter how closely behind a fret one can place his finger without muting the note, string tension is always a function of applied pressure, unless the fret has no real height to speak of. The string HAS to bend around the fret. When checking intonation of fretted notes (not by articial harmonics) you can either make it a point to apply slight pressure close to the fret (an unrealistic situation) or you can fret the note like you intend to on stage! Now you tell me what is the more realistic way to set intonation! For that matter, why use artificial harmonics at all unless that is all your playing consists of? During intonation set up I believe that all notes should be played (fretted with realistic playing force) as the instrument was meant to be played. Setting it up one way and using it another is less effective.
____________________________________

I liked jvasey's explanation for the moody keys, but this would only apply to instruments that have open strings. For a piano, they're all the same, and foo says it was no accident that Beethoven wrote Moonlight Sonata in C#minor.

Through all this discussion we solved nothing and proved little. I'm ready to pack it in.
 
Tom,

I think you're overcomplicating things.

All Porchman and I are saying is that the G string to the second fret A runs sharp, very noticeably, which plays hell with changeing standard chords on the lower frets.

This is true for every guitar I have ever tried, Pchorman too.

For whatever reason this means that the fret is in the wrong position. Now if you can tell us why the second fret is off, we'd love to hear it.
 
All posters have used reasoned launguage to make their points but ignore common practice.Take your guitar into any music store and have it intonated.Visit any manufacturer and observe then setting up axes fresh out of the box.All the interesting theories and variations being discussed will be prominant by their absence.
It may be complicated to explain WHY a practice is the universal method.But doesn't it seem wise to first learn "the way" and then make your improvements?I learned to service guitars by doing it under the instruction of older and wiser fellows who were nice enough to take me under their wing.
Similarly,I offer the tried and true conventional wisdom to any who want to use it for themselves.Let's keep the egos and posturing to a minimum.Anybody who disagrees with me is welcome to their methods.I got no dog in that hunt,as we say here in Tx.
regards
Tom
 
There is no question why they set things up using only the open and 12th frets. The reason is it's a shortcut to use the half-way point. After all, who would want to spend that much time checking every note, and what can they do about it anyway?

We only have control over string length and tension. We can't tweak the fret positions (the company which pulls this off is sure to be successful). With these limitations it makes practical sense to use the midway point and compare that to open. Besides, the tradeoff necessary to check all notes is subjective in addition to requiring way too much time. (The intonation is not subjective, just the tradeoff in deciding where the near-perfect notes will be, i.e. above or below the 12th fret.)


And why is the artificial harmonic a popular method to set intonation? Because it is forgiving in finger placement. If your finger is just slightly above or below where it should be, the harmonic will be attenuated, but it will be right on! This techique assumes the 12th fret is exactly below the string pinch point, but we all know nothing is perfect.

OK guys, this was fun but I'm through beating on this horse.
 
All mumbo jumbo aside. The second fret is off on every guitar that I have played. Can someone tell me why?

Tom,

No offense, but music stores don't have time for the fine details. A strobe tuner at the twelve fret is all they can do. This still doesn't solve the problem at the second fret.

Now having said more than my piece, I'm bailing out.

Ahhhhhhhhhhh!
 
Well, let's revive the horse.

Can anyone tell me why it seems that open tunings seem to intonate better than standard tuning on the same guitar? Is it that the harmonic onslaught tends to be what we want to hear anyway? Or that the frets play some "lesser" role in chord formation?

I've noticed that my guitars will throw intonation tantrums at a drop of a hat. Changes in temperature, humidity, string age, and so on can create little wierdnesses. (That goddamn B string...) But I found it interesting that changing the tuning itself, particularly to an open tuning, seems to alter the instrument's intonantion characteristics. So there's more to it than *just* fret placement and setup; tempered scales are inherently wierd. Just think - a piano is an entirely open string instrument. (As Tom Lehrer once said, needs an 88-string capo).

Given that we're playing with fire to toss fretted instruments (fret placement, string stretch, gauge, tension and so forth) into the same basket with tempered scales, maybe it's a wonder that a neck ever sounds right!

No wonder lutes had moveable frets.
 
solution anyone, other than a valium?

Buying a guitar that cannot be intonated. :)
Oh, and don't try to save money on strings...

/regebro, happy with his $80 buck acoustic with built in mic.
 
Tom
Hate to belabour the point. I know 12th fret is most common. I'm just saying 19th has proved more accurate for me. To dismiss it out of hand is to deny not only pure physics, but any chance of progress. Don't write it off until you've tried it. I've been at this almost as long as you, and have a steady slate of 70 students a week with a waiting list, and this is what has worked best for me. To rely on the argument that it's "standard procedure", denies the opportunity to improve anything or learn anything. Try it before you complain.
Jeff
 
Wow this is getting intense . Do I detect the aroma of a few burned brain cells ?
A quick question that may or may not pertain to this discussion . Am I the only one who feels that 25.5 inch scales are inherintly more in tune , or at least pleasing to the ears than the 24.75 inch scales ?
 
Well I will give this a try. My scale length seems to be about 25 inches according to a gross tape measure, give or take a small fraction of an inch due to different string intonation settings with the tune-o-matic bridge.

I can understand that the higher up on the neck you go the more critical the pitch measurement - the frets are more closely spaced. To be a millimeter off somewhere at the top of the neck is more severe than being a millimeter off in fret placement down near the bottom. My theory anyway.
 
Let me know what you think PChorman.

The other reason I prefer is that the frets are laid as if the neck were perfectly straight. But once strings are on, it needs to have a slight arc. 12th fret is closer to the centre of the arc which is a further distance scale than at the end of an arc. Intonating at 12th (centre of arc) will tend to leave the notes on the ends of the arc to get progressively sharper as you get away from the centre.

19th fret is 1/3 the string length so intonating there will make the scale correct half way down each side of the arc (7th fret and 19th fret or 1/3 and 2/3 length). This would leave notes to get progressively flat from 19 down to 12 and 7th up to 12, rather than progressively sharp from 12th down. Your basicly setting your scale to be perfect (theoretically) at 7th fret instead of 12th, so more usable frets are closer to perfect.

Like I said, it's not the only way, but it works better for me.
Jeff
 
tunning

Let me start by saying i have spent the last 30 years repairing and building stringed instruments, and the reason I stated that was to give some idea of the time i've spent working on these problems. Having your guitar intonation set at the 12 th fret is standard method, everybody knows that, and i use that sometimes. But i never rule out individual guitar problems, therefore i use every method i can to help that guitar sound good. Using a $5000 tuner is not going to make a guitar sound good, and all this stuff about staying with the factory standard way of doing things is just bull, come to think about it, thats the reason i started building guitars in the first place. I;ve heard the Buzz F tunning system, i think it sounds ok, and so does alot of recordings made way before that system. Let me just end by saying that you will not have any trouble finding opinions about intonation, here are just some of mine.
1. make sure the frets are crowned, string contact in center.
2. neck is adjusted
3.nut is notched correctly, height and width of notch, and also made out of good material.
4. good strings, there is a difference in strings, and to stretch the strings-very important
5. electric guitars with plain g string, you will probably notice slight sharpness. if you have adjustable pickup poles you would lower the g string pole piece since it is the major third note of a lot of barr chords and also happens to be the loudest and most offensive of the set, b string being next.
6. Tunning methods.
some people tune by ear, some by tuner to perfect pitch.
one method that works well on many guitars is this: with a good stable tuner, tune high e string dead on. b string slightly sharp if you have a tuner with a needle, if not , tune dead on, tune g,d,a,and low e to 7th fret harmonic, and go over this more than once.
There is no such thing as perfect intonation, i don't even care, i only care that it sounds good.
Thats it !
 
Stan Williams,

Great voice of reason, you've got going there. Sounds like you know guitars like the back of your hand. Which also means you know how imperfect they are.

I have just discovered another way to check and set intonation, it may or may not be the best, I don't know yet.

I recorded a song with my Guild acoustic, which seems to have very good intonation. The song has lots of chords up and down the neck. I play my electric along with it, and make adjustments while I play. Also throughing in some lead, as I go. Lead and chords seem to be two different animals, intonation wise. Please don't write this off until you try it.

I think tuners think guitars are perfect, but we humans know better.

Stan and Porchman,

I would love to hear what you think about this method. Seems about as hands on as you can get.

GT
 
Stan: all good advice; your suggestions are bullet-proof.

jvasey: I tried your 19th fret intonation check today and found that it registered a few cents sharp on at least a couple of strings (not too surprising considering what was already discussed about the high end of the scale). I made the adjustments and ended up hitting the limit-stop for the g-string. It is now as long as the Gibson bridge allows, yet it wants to be longer. I would love to know whether any other Gibson LP owners have run out of room for adjustment. Intonation at other positions seems fine.

The frets seem perfectly aligned (i.e. mutually parallel and with hardly any wear this end of the scale), the neck appears to be in excellent alignment and the strings are new.

GT: I take it you mean retuning on-the-fly. This requires a bit of skill and a good ear. The only difficulty I have with this is when tension is releaved (from tuning down slightly), there is typically some binding at the nut. When it comes time to bend a note on that string it sometimes goes out to lunch on me, and another adjustment is required. I've seen plenty of footage of Hendrix and many other less capable guitarists pulling this off, but it has always been difficult for me to get right the first time.
 
GT

I have not tried the method you mention, but i never rule out any method that makes a guitar sound better to my ears. I don't care what my tuner says, my ears have the last word. There is something wrong with the idea of a $1000 guitar and a $5000 guitar having the same intonation problems, main difference between the two is really cosmetics.Guitars are not all alike,so for that reason i may not intonate them the same. I'm not going to close any doors when it comes to playing in tune. They would be hard enough to play if they stayed and played in tune. Major thirds will always be sharp,guitars are not perfect,but there is alot you can do to improve it. If you do 20 little things to improve it, they will all add up.
 
PChorman

I too play LP's and haven't had your problem, although I prefer my action a little higher than most. Also, on a couple of guitars with the same bridge (LP spec and 70's Yamaha), I ended up flipping the saddle on either the D or G. On students guitars, I've frequently found cheaper strat and strat copies where the bridge on first and/or second strings won't extend neckward enough leaving them terribly flat from about 4th fret up. Even seen one Epiphone where all saddles where backwards from the factory. I'm never surprised by the oversights when they crank them out like they do.

Jeff
 
Porhcman,

I finally finished adjusting the bridge on my electric, using the song I wrote and recorded on my guild acoustic, as reference, my electric has never sounded this good, ever.

I truely believe this is the best way to adjust the bridge on an electric, having tried everything else.

Since I started this thread, the least I can do is explain my method, I'm calling it my method because I haven't heard of anyone else doing it this way.

Here's what you do:

Take a slow song with lots of chords up and down the neck, that has been recorded on an acoustic, with the best intonation you can find, and learn to play it on your electric. (To my ears an acoustic will give you a better backdrop to adjust your electric to). The electric will stand out better this way.

The reason for a slow song, is so you will have time to play each string on any given chord, to listen for problems.

Now play along with the song, picking each string in each chord listening for problems.

Leave the song on while you adjust the bridge, retune and play. It is important to leave the song playing at all times, so your ears don't fool you into thinking youv'e got it right when, you don't.

After a while you will get to know what's wrong and where you have to compensate, and where you don't, in bridge adjustment.

How long this takes will depend on how good you're ear is, and how much you get into it.

This is a very hands on method, don't be surprised if you get a blister from the screwdriver.

GT
 
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