Steenamaroo
...
If you're biting your tongue and someone's shouting 'bullcrap', there are sides.
I hope you get to the bottom of your issues.
I hope you get to the bottom of your issues.
Monkey Allen
Fork and spoon operator
I don't think so. I've innocently, and with civility discussed issues with a guitar. And have remained civil at all times. That's not a side. That's discussing things on an internet forum. It would only be by sleight of hand I should be deemed to belong to a "side" or to one corner of some kind of fight.
Mick Doobie
Maderator
Maybe less time typing on the innernet and more time process of elimination would be more productive towards sorting the problem. I'm not trying to be snide, sometimes comes a point you got take that bull by the horns. Anyone hearing a similar phenom who stumbles upon this thread might benefit from your efforts, both discussing and hands-on.
It's been an interesting thread here, something to read when traffic is slow. I hope you get it sorted out. Keep us informed of your progress.
It's been an interesting thread here, something to read when traffic is slow. I hope you get it sorted out. Keep us informed of your progress.
Monkey Allen
Fork and spoon operator
Yes. I get that. I started the thread around a year ago. In that time I've only had a handful of opportunities to sit down and focus on the problem in peace. And in that time my understanding of the problem has changed etc. I'm not gonna start tinkering until I'm ready and it's a good thing I didn't because now I think I've got more of an idea than I did before. In the meantime, it's just chat. Big deal. Typing on the internet costs me nothing and sure doesn't cost other people anything. The only price being paid is in whatever frustration other people may or may not feel from reading an internet forum and feeling mad. You don't have to read it. The internet is a big place.
60's guy
Well-known member
I'm glad you read the Martin guitar forum thread, and I agree that the discussion there was inconclusive, however, I still recommend it that you visit AGF for additional responses and suggestions. Everyone here (myself included) desires it that you find a solution in the near future.
DrewPeterson7
Sage of the Order
I think you underestimate how bored I get at work.
But, seriously, I would love to hear a clip of the issue you're having, or see a video of it, it possible. It it wasn't that slight high frequency overtone I was hearing in that video, then I'm not entirely sure what to suggest, and seeing and hearing the exact guitar in question might make it a little easier to diagnose.
Longshot, but in the meantime, what if anything are you doing to keep the guitar humidified in the case?
Monkey Allen
Fork and spoon operator
Obviously there'll be no time frame guarantees or timelines. It'll get done when it gets done I'm afraid to say. Clips I can post up maybe this weekend. Humidity...my area is pretty temperate there's not outrageous extremes. Cased sure, along with humidity packs for soaking up whatever summer humidity is around. But conditions here don't swing between ice and snow and unbearable heat or anything. Does get hot in summer, sure.
Monkey Allen
Fork and spoon operator
Here's a couple of files. To keep it very simple I struck a single note...the C, 1st fret B string. I did this because over time I have narrowed the problem down to this note as the main offender. Not the only offender...but the main offender. For example, the C# note, 2nd fret B string has no such problem. The open B string has no such problem.
A word on the 2 examples (same guitar, same recording):
Guitar A - Only the note in question played, no EQ or manipulation
Guitar B - Only the note in question played but at the start of the clip I have a narrow Q at 796hz (note is G5) in place to reduce the problem by 15db. As the clip plays I gradually reintroduce the problem by slowly bring up the 15db back to 0 so the clip is back to normal. Later in the clip I reduce that 796hz again by -15db and then reintroduce it again.
So the problem I am hearing is at 796hz. There is an "overtone" (or whatever you want to call it) ringing a G5 note. This is 100% not the room or the microphone or anything else like that. It comes directly from the guitar. It is baked into the guitar. This is what the naked ear hears. As you can imagine...playing any chord with that 1st fret B string note involved creates complex problems. I hope and trust you can hear the problem just from striking the single note itself as in the examples. Since an acoustic guitar produces a very complex combination of sounds...when that C note is part of a chord it creates big problems. I can EQ the problem away to some extent at 796hz when striking the single note...but when the problem is part of chords...this complex combo of strings, notes and sounds it is not easy to get rid of.
I guess I'd recommend headphones for this with a suitable volume. But good speakers will show it too.
A word on the 2 examples (same guitar, same recording):
Guitar A - Only the note in question played, no EQ or manipulation
Guitar B - Only the note in question played but at the start of the clip I have a narrow Q at 796hz (note is G5) in place to reduce the problem by 15db. As the clip plays I gradually reintroduce the problem by slowly bring up the 15db back to 0 so the clip is back to normal. Later in the clip I reduce that 796hz again by -15db and then reintroduce it again.
So the problem I am hearing is at 796hz. There is an "overtone" (or whatever you want to call it) ringing a G5 note. This is 100% not the room or the microphone or anything else like that. It comes directly from the guitar. It is baked into the guitar. This is what the naked ear hears. As you can imagine...playing any chord with that 1st fret B string note involved creates complex problems. I hope and trust you can hear the problem just from striking the single note itself as in the examples. Since an acoustic guitar produces a very complex combination of sounds...when that C note is part of a chord it creates big problems. I can EQ the problem away to some extent at 796hz when striking the single note...but when the problem is part of chords...this complex combo of strings, notes and sounds it is not easy to get rid of.
I guess I'd recommend headphones for this with a suitable volume. But good speakers will show it too.
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DM60
Well-known member
Not to be a smart ass, but another POV is, personality of the guitar? I mean to me, my acoustics, more than the electrics all have their own personality. Even my cheapest acoustic has a personality that I can't get from the others. In certain situations I wouldn't use it, but for others, I can't replicate it with any other guitar.
Just giving a different view point. No saying I am helping
Steenamaroo
...
Honestly, I think what you're hearing is what a guitar does.
I believe you're hearing a natural component of the note you're playing, more so as the fundamental naturally fades,
and also the same pitch from the sympathetic ringing of the open G string.
Muting the other strings whilst performing your test would go some way to confirming, as I mentioned a few times.
You'll still hear the same 5th/G component, but nowhere near as pronounced.
You can even do your test as you did then just touch the G string with your finger while the ringing 5th is strong.
The fifth will remain but nowhere near as strong.
If it was my problem I'd be looking at the saddle, on the basis that the fundamental note you're playing seems to be fading faster than expected.
A worn, damaged, or badly shaped saddle will impede the fundamental note before any other component - think pinched harmonic.
I'd be inspecting the frets too. It works both ways.
TalismanRich
Well-known member
Playing the single note, I hear the ringing that is bugging you. It sounds to me more like what I hear when a string is fretting out. On the low E, it really stands out as a buzz, but as base frequency rises, it becomes harder to hear. Could it be the saddle... maybe. It doesn't sound like wood vibrating, more hard plastic or metallic.
Monkey Allen
Fork and spoon operator
I disagree that it is natural and what a guitar does. There is a fault here. This isn't normal. The other strings were muted. There was no sympathetic ringing of the open G since there was no open G in the picture. All other strings were muted and only the note played is what is heard.
I think you're right about the saddle. And I think you're even closer with your estimate that the fundamental fades faster than it should...and quickly gets overwhelmed by the problem ringing 796hz. That is what it sounds like to me. From what I can see the frets are fine. The struck note seems to lack sustain, dies somewhat quickly and gets swamped by the problem ringing at 796hz. So, like you, I am thinking saddle.
Monkey Allen
Fork and spoon operator
Right. Saddle is what I think.
I should add to what I wrote a post ago...I'm not absolutely ruling out frets. I'll need to be comprehensive in assessing things. But this is an advancement on everything I've thought because the absolute worst example of the problem I've got is that 1st fret B string. MANY chords are made with that note involved and therefore the problem is spread throughout a song if you're playing C, Am, F, D7, G with the C note in it etc & whatever.
I'm so stupid for the longest time I just thought my room sounded terrible or that I was using the wrong mike or had terrible mike placement. Then come to find out...the shocker of shockers...it's the guitar! And then refine that a little further...it is most problematic at 1st fret B string.
So, you know, it's been a journey. But the diagnosis is in I think. Now to a very meticulous study of the frets and the saddle.
60's guy
Well-known member
I've listened to Guitar A and Guitar B mp3 files many times.. Guitar A mp3 file certainly does possess a low tone belllike overtone to it that quickly tapers off and then (all of sudden) we hear a pronounced higher pitched resonance or echo at a higher frequency. That can happen whenever a single mic is improperly positioned directly in front of the sound hole. Acoustic guitars are beastly!
Steenamaroo
...
It is normal - It's just happening too much.
Play any open string and let it ring long enough. Eventually you'll hear the 5th ring through.
It'll be subtle but it'll happen.
It comes back to what I said way near the start - Either the instrument is just easier to agitate at these particular frequencies,
so in this specific case the B fundamental fades out fast but the G 5th component has less of a problem,
or there's something wrong with one of the two points at which the string is anchored - The fret or the saddle.
...or both,
...or both.
You can simulate this by pressing your finger where the string rests on the saddle, just ever so slightly muting the note, then plucking.
If you get the balance right the result will be a slightly muted fundamental, and ringing overtones.
For clarity, when I mentioned checking frets I meant frets in play - In this case the first fret.
This is not fret buzz.
Monkey Allen
Fork and spoon operator
Not sure you're hearing what's obviously there. As stated many times, it aint the mic. What's on the clips is how the naked ear hears it. Microphone just faithfully captures what is there for the ear to hear. Your ears might be different or you're not hearing it for whatever reason. But the clips show and demonstrate the issue very clearly.
Monkey Allen
Fork and spoon operator
It's not normal if it...happens too much. If it happens too much it's a problem. I get that you're saying small doses might be normal and yes I'd say they are too. But what I have is abnormal not normal.
And no, it's not fret buzz and never has been to my ears and yes you're right...the actual fret in play needs attention. The fret wear under the 1st fret B string is significant. It's worn down into a groove. I had not noticed that before, with my glasses on, a strong light and a magnifying glass it is obvious. So now instead of starting with the saddle I'll be starting with that fret.
Steenamaroo
...
The fundamental fading out before other components is normal, and worth pointing out.
There's enough to debate here without adding semantics but I'm glad we agree.
Significant fret wear is definitely something to address.
I detailed a couple of ways you might be able to confirm that or rule it out, without modification or cost, at the start of the week.
There's enough to debate here without adding semantics but I'm glad we agree.
Significant fret wear is definitely something to address.
I detailed a couple of ways you might be able to confirm that or rule it out, without modification or cost, at the start of the week.
Monkey Allen
Fork and spoon operator
I don't get the sense that the fundamental fades as such. It appears to fade because once struck the 796hz problem quickly (basically immediately) starts to join it/ almost take over and they both ring together. Doesn't do it at the 2nd fret, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th etc. These frets produce a nice clean sustained fundamental note. Only the 1st has issues. To the ear the problem sounds like it comes from the saddle, no question. Break angle over the saddle is fine though so it's not that the string slouches over the saddle or anything. Anyway, I'll get to work on it soon.
60's guy
Well-known member
Can you post a photo of the first fret?