Will taking finish off my guitar effect the tone much?

[muttley600]

Why does everyone keep bringing up the fact that its an inexpensive guitar?? Did you not read when he said that he loves it? Shouldn't that be reason enough??

I think I said as much in post #4

The fact that it is "only" a $350 guitar is of no consequence.

I was pointing out that regardless of cost it should be right and if its not it should be put right.

 

[Thurgood]

You guys rock. Hey Muttley, Light, Travis et. al.. Your sage advice is welcome on my screen. I am lucky to have a great tech/luthier (for real luthier) in my humble city. I pay him well, he treats me and my instruments very well. And I refer him at every opportunity. You want to feel underappreciated, berated and generally maligned because your professional services are billed at a rate that the market and your training permits, try being an ATTORNEY.

Sorry to hijack and rant.

Back to the original post: Don't blow up. Let PRS take the risk.

 

[Light]

To suggest that we guitar techs/luthiers are out to squeeze every last penny out of the paying customer is bordering on offensive.

No, it is ACTUALLY and VERY offensive.

Thanks for saying what I would have said, but without the profanity.

I know there are cowboy guitar tech guys out there. There are cowboys in every trade.

Yup. And you know what always seems to happen with them? Their house burns down, or they get burglarized, or they decide they really like a guitar, and all of a sudden the guitars owner is SOL. If WE ever lost a guitar (which has NEVER happened), our customers would get compensated in full, because that's why we carry insurance. Our rates barely make our employees a living wage, and the repair shop gives me and dad NOTHING (we make our money off of guitar sales). We have NEVER tried to "shake you down for every damn dime they can get ." To suggest that we do is an asshole thing to do.

Also, I have never tried to stop people from doing their own refinishing (at least, not unless they were going to damage the value of the guitar), I just suggest they use something other than a highly combustible product to do it. I don't like the idea of anyone going up in a large ball of fire.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[travelin travis]

You guys can take it how you want to. Personally, I think $75 for a nut is fucking rediculous. I think $75 for a setup is just as rediculous. How about $500 for a fret job? Does it come with a hand job? It wasn't my intention to offend you Light, or Mutley, but I'm not going to apologize for my view on this. If you're guys are barely feeding their families on $400-500 fret jobs, then the employer to employee profit ratio needs to change, imo. How much do you pay your guys to do a fret job? $10-15 an hour? 2-4 hours for a fret job?

The 'cowboys' I spoke of are honest, hard working guys that have been in business for many years and have gained a reputation among the local musicians in the know. I'll never hesitate to take guitars to them whether it's a $50 pawn shop special or a rare old Martin. Good work is good work.

Btw Light, I'm not a 'putz'. I'm not a sucker either.

 

[dave.....]

wow

seroious words here ....... i defense of light and muttley ... actualy any professional ... i totaly understand ..... $75 per hour ... shop rent or mortage.... electric bill ... insurance.... health insurance... workers salary... tons of other expenses.... when it is all over that $75 does not go verry far ....... you are lucky to make any profit at all ................ things are exactly the same in my line of work............

 

[Light]

You guys can take it how you want to. Personally, I think $75 for a nut is fucking rediculous. I think $75 for a setup is just as rediculous. How about $500 for a fret job? Does it come with a hand job? It wasn't my intention to offend you Light, or Mutley, but I'm not going to apologize for my view on this.

OK, I'll tell you what, when you agree to take a 75% pay cut at YOUR job, then you can start bitching at us about our rates. Or, what, are you OFFENDED by the idea that your labor is worth less than you are getting paid for it? Oh my God, what a shock.

Putz.

If you're guys are barely feeding their families on $400-500 fret jobs, then the employer to employee profit ratio needs to change, imo.

Perhaps you don't know how to read, because if you did, you would have seen where I said that the shop (i.e., the corporation; i.e., the "employer") SEES NO PROFIT from the repair side of our business. None, zip, zero, nada.

How much do you pay your guys to do a fret job?

None of your business, but they get paid as well as anyone in this line of work.

2-4 hours for a fret job?

Our shop rate is $80 an hour. You do the math.

The 'cowboys' I spoke of are honest, hard working guys that have been in business for many years and have gained a reputation among the local musicians in the know.

Be that as it may, they are idiots for working without proper business licenses and insurance, and their customers are even stupider for taking that risk. WHEN something goes wrong, they are fucked.

I'll share a little story about this. About 9-10 months ago, some guy parked his car across the street from our shop. He got out and left the car running. He says that he put it in park, but it either fell out of park into reverse, or he never quite got it there. His car started rolling backwards, and did a U-turn across the rather busy street in front of our shop. Amazingly, the car didn't hit any other cars, it threaded it's way through a hole between a car and a sign post which was incredibly narrow, and ran smack dab into our building. The guy didn't have insurance (idiot). Oh course, this is all so ridiculous that we were laughing about it while it was happening, and so was the cop who came to take the report. The first thing she did was call a tow truck to impound Numbnuts' car, because it is of course completely illegal to drive without insurance. The damage to the building was negligible, but the impact shook the building badly enough that it knocked a guitar in the back room right off of the shelf (a fairly new D35, in absolutely MINT condition, cosmetically.) It had some clamps in the sound hole (a loose brace or two), and the clamps marred the sound hole, and of course it had a ding right where the top landed on the ground. Now, because Numbnuts didn't have any insurance, our insurance covered the replacement guitar from Martin (Numbnuts DID have to pay our deductible, plus he had to pay the insurance company back for the repair on our building; Personally, I think he should have had to buy the new Martin - at full retail price).

The point to this story (which is of course obvious if you have half a brain) is that going to a fully licensed and insured business to get your work done has many major benefits, not least of which is that when and if something happens to your guitar, you are covered. (Oh, and your "cowboys" can't do any warranty work, and any work they do will automatically void your warranty, end of story).

And then of course there is the timelyness issue. Without exception, the "cowboy" repair people I know of are completely unreliable when it comes to getting work done in a timely fashion. We regularly hear stories of people having to leave there guitars with these guys for weeks, to months, even to YEARS; a professional shop will get the work done in a timely manner. Most jobs are in and out of our shop in a week. Durring some times of the year (like right now), that can stretch to two weeks, and some major jobs will take up to three-four months(neck resets, for instance). Not the 2-3 YEARS I frequently hear about with any of the "Cowboys" in town. And that's for guitars which were taken back by customers who were sick of waiting. Who knows how long it would take to actually FINISH a job.

Some of these guys do decent work, but none of them can compare with the guys who work in our shop. The just don't have the opportunity to get enough practice, and they don't have a boss who is relentless in his insistence on only doing the best work possible. Sometimes they do fine work, sometimes there work is a bit shoddy. The work in our shop is always right, every time. Dad wouldn't allow anything else.


So, tell me, are you willing to take a 75% pay cut and put your customers at huge risk just because some yutz on the internet who couldn't run a successful service business if he tried says you should? I don't think you would be willing, and to be frank I don't think you should have to do so.

So I'll tell you what, if you don't try to tell me how MY business should be run, I won't tell you how to run YOURS. OK?



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[muttley600]

Light, It ain't worth a response. I'm sure if you look back at his post history you'll find many posts detailing how things are too expensive. The guy obviously hasn't got a clue on how business works or what the consequence of dealing with un registered or un licenced people are if things go pear shaped. I get the feeling there is quite a bit of insecurity there as well. He's probaly bitter about the rates he gets for flipping burgers then goes home to a life in front of a computer full of pirated music and software because they cost too much to buy and musicians are ripping people off n so are the software companies Looking at another recent thread he's advising people to ship guitars with the neck off as well... I mean how do you deal with comments like that. Just let him alone. Most people do know the value of good work done by qualified,experienced people with a reputation and creditation.

Anyhow I, like I'm sure you do always quote first and explain exactly what work is being dona and why. People always have the choice to take it elsewhere. I'll even give them some names of other guys if they want. My books are full for the year as far as making is concerned and I do repairs because I like to see people happy with their cherished instruments not to make money. I'm sure as hell not going to make a loss on them though.

 

[Thurgood]

Sorry to re-post. Good work costs good money. PS insurance rules unless you live on the gulf coast. I have no problem shelling out the cash for good high quality warrantied work. One more comment: having a customer/client happy brings me great satisfaction. For example, when my luthier returns my instruments he positively beams with pride and obvious satisfaction with mine. Sometimes it amounts to more than just a paycheck. Although they are very helpful for putting food on the table.

 

[travelin travis]

Man did I start a shit storm in here?

Ok, so now I'm a bitter burger flippin pirate because I think you guys are assholes for discouraging musicians from working on their own guitars...... ........right........

.......and you guys don't make any money on $500 fret jobs.........right....... You do repair work out of the goodness of your heart with $0 profit.......give me a break!

Light, what makes you think that these 'cowboys' aren't licensed/insured businesses? Any Joe with a few hundred bucks can be. That doesn't mean the work will be any better or that a disgruntled employee won't walk out with someone's favorite guitar. I happen to know that one these 'cowboys' does authorized warranty work for major manufacturers. I've seen his certifications.

We can keep slinging insults back and forth all you boys want to. I'm still going to get pissed every time you guys tell someone they can't fix a guitar and you're still going to get pissed every time I don't take your words as religion.

 

[Zaphod B]

Light and Muttley, how do you define a "cowboy?"

Someone with no formal training? Someone whose business is not an authorized repair center for a particular brand? Someone who has an unrelated day job and repairs guitars in their garage nights and weekends? A guitar tech at a Guitar Center?

.

 

[muttley600]

Light and Muttley, how do you define a "cowboy?"

Someone with no formal training? Someone whose business is not an authorized repair center for a particular brand? Someone who has an unrelated day job and repairs guitars in their garage nights and weekends? A guitar tech at a Guitar Center?

.

The expression is used a lot on this side of the "pond". Basically someone who does a shoddy job and then does his best to convince everyone he knows what he's about. In truth they don't kniow how to do the job right in the first place. As soon as they are found out they move on and do the same in some other district with the same result. You guys must have em too??

 

[32-20-Blues]

OK, I'll tell you what, when you agree to take a 75% pay cut at YOUR job, then you can start bitching at us about our rates. Or, what, are you OFFENDED by the idea that your labor is worth less than you are getting paid for it? Oh my God, what a shock.

So, tell me, are you willing to take a 75% pay cut and put your customers at huge risk just because some yutz on the internet who couldn't run a successful service business if he tried says you should? I don't think you would be willing, and to be frank I don't think you should have to do so.

So I'll tell you what, if you don't try to tell me how MY business should be run, I won't tell you how to run YOURS. OK?



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

Jesus Light, you piss and moan about this so much. A couple of points: If the cowboys are as bad as you say, then you have nothing to worry about.

Secondly, for the love of fuck stop bitching about how your repair business doesn't make a profit. You went into the business knowing its general level of financial return. If you don't like it, work in a bank.

 

[TelePaul]

Jesus Light, you piss and moan about this so much. A couple of points: If the cowboys are as bad as you say, then you have nothing to worry about.

Secondly, for the love of fuck stop bitching about how your repair business doesn't make a profit. You went into the business knowing its general level of financial return. If you don't like it, work in a bank.

I'm just wondering why anyone would go into any business that doesn't make a profit. That IS the point of a business...to make a profit.

 

[32-20-Blues]

Light and Muttley, how do you define a "cowboy?"

.

As someone who does the same job as them, but cheaper and quicker, apparently.

 

[TelePaul]

As someone who does the same job as them, but cheaper and quicker, apparently.

 

[dave.....]

wow

getting deep in here ......... better get those cowboy boots on .......... ohh crap i dont have any cowboy boots........

 

[travelin travis]

As someone who does the same job as them, but cheaper and quicker, apparently.

I'll say this, every time I've taken any of my guitars to one these cowboys, it was done within a day or two with the exception of a neck repair which required some refinishing. That took a few weeks and the guy explained to me the process and how humidity could cause delays. He kept me updated by calling.

I had a neck repair (headstock) at the local big boy shop before I knew about the cowboy. It took about the same amount of time but I couldn't ever get the tech to let me know what was going on. "He's not in right now"........over, and over........lame. The repair didn't hold up either. For what I was charged, had I known better, I could have bought a brand new neck and bolted it on myself.

Oh yea, the cowboy charged me $25 and the neck repair (broken headstock) held and looked great over the next few years that I owned the guitar.

Btw, I didn't break either of these guitars. One was broken by a band mates younger brother (tripped over the guitar cable) and the other by my girlfriend (knocked over the guitar stand). Lesson here: Put your guitar in it's case when you're not playing it.

One more thing. These cowboys I spoke of charged me $10-15 for a complete setup (bring your own strings). Also, these cowboys showed plenty of interest in how and what I play on any guitar that I brought in and adjusted accordingly. The big guys ALWAYS gave me the same old generic setup that they probably give everyone else.

 

[TelePaul]

I think this is worth saying. I read an interview yesterday with Dave Crosby. He says his favourite guitar was a martin he had converted into a twelve string by doubling up on the bridge pins and apparently shaved down the bracing. I know very little about guitar manufacturing, but it seems that this is a strange way of doing things. However, Dave Crosby says its the best guitar he's ever owned or played. Furthermore, he reckons it'll only last him another five years so he's given it to Martin so they can examine it and maybe even make him another one. What i know for sure is that Dave Crosby is probably a better player than anyone currently reading this thread.

Another example of this is Eric Johnsons custom strat with a slanted headstock. No string trees so he can use the vibrato without tuning issues apparently. Now I don't know if this is true, but have you heard Eric Johnson play?

People are going to do things to their guitars, whether its a vinyl sticker, new tuners, a lower action, removing the finish, or doing what people like Crosby and Johsnon did above. Nobody complained that Rory Gallghers strat had practically no finish. Why? Because he's one of the best palyers ever with an amazing tone to back him up.

 

[muttley600]

Man did I start a shit storm in here?

Ok, so now I'm a bitter burger flippin pirate because I think you guys are assholes for discouraging musicians from working on their own guitars...... ........right........

.......and you guys don't make any money on $500 fret jobs.........right....... You do repair work out of the goodness of your heart with $0 profit.......give me a break!

Light, what makes you think that these 'cowboys' aren't licensed/insured businesses? Any Joe with a few hundred bucks can be. That doesn't mean the work will be any better or that a disgruntled employee won't walk out with someone's favorite guitar. I happen to know that one these 'cowboys' does authorized warranty work for major manufacturers. I've seen his certifications.

We can keep slinging insults back and forth all you boys want to. I'm still going to get pissed every time you guys tell someone they can't fix a guitar and you're still going to get pissed every time I don't take your words as religion.

So when have I ever discouraged anyone from working on their guitars. Quite the opposite I've given people what I think is helpful advice on how to do a job correctly. If in this case your talking about finishing I've just said don't use nitro unless you have the gear and you know what your doing. I've also pointed out that there are better pucker guitar finishes for the casual or hobbyist guitar maker. I'll quote myself...

Go ahead and use it. If used correctly it is safe. But treat it with the utmost respect if you do. I can't see why anyone would want or need to when for one off finishing projects there are far better and easier to use finishes.

Hardly discouraging people. Just trying to save someone from turning themselves into a human fire ball is not being discouraging.

I don't charge $500 for a fret job.

I make a tiny amount of money from my repair activities. It serves two purposes as far as I see it. First I get to keep up to speed with the instruments in the market place. Second, if I do a good job on someone’s cherished guitar, if and when he or she is looking for their next axe they may consider one of mine. Hell they get to play them when they visit my workshop. I've sold instruments exactly that way.

Your few hunderd dollars to get authorised isn't even gonna pay for a yaers insurance. If you get to be an authorised repairer for any of the major brands without liability insurance, an Industry reference, a permanent established address and/or a franchise agreement you are lying to them and are likely to be found out and would face breech of agreement and fraud accusations possibly leading to expensive litigation. Anyone who is legitimately authorised would not be able to charge what you seem to think is fair. So keep taking them to your preferred luthier. I hope everything goes well, really I do. Just don't start whingeing if goes tits up.

Now you can tell as many people you like to have a go and do it themselves. I do, I'll even try to help them where possible but when you start chucking around ill-informed insults in my direction I get pissed. By doing so you are attacking my integrity and a lifetimes devotion to my work and clients that I hold in greater esteem than any of the opinions from your talking bollocks.

 

[TelePaul]

yeah Muttley but whattya think about Crosby hmmm?