Will taking finish off my guitar effect the tone much?

[TelePaul]

Why should anyone (particularly someone with a VERY high level of skill, such as our repair people) have to make do with less? Our labor is just as valuable as anyone else's, and to suggest otherwise is offensive. We work just as hard as anyone, so why shouldn't we be paid just as well?

You have to make do with less because thats the area you chose to specialise in. It's simple economics. I hate to say it but if you decided to devote the time to learning the skills of a mechanic, you'd be making more money. This is because the demand for car repair exceeds the demand for guitar repair. It's down to economics. The demand for guitar repair isn't comparatively high because not everyone plays guitar. The demand for say, fresh bread is constant and that's why we use things like bread to measure the consumer price index. If you were the only guitar repairer in America, or even your state or county, things would be different. Unfortunately, there are very few barriers to entry into the guitar making business; Muttleys tools amount to £35000, which isn't alot to invest in a business. The problem is that your job, which you qualify as highly specialised, is still rampant with competition...be that high end quality repairs or the cowboys people mentioned. In short...thems the breaks.

 

[32-20-Blues]

No, because I think that EVERY job should afford at least a basic middle class lifestyle.

Well good luck with living in dreamland.

Why should anyone (particularly someone with a VERY high level of skill, such as our repair people) have to make do with less?.

Because that is how the world works.

Our labor is just as valuable as anyone else's, and to suggest otherwise is offensive.

Bullshit. A heart surgeon - now his labour is valuable. Thus, society awards him a middle class lifestyle more readily than it does luthiers.

We work just as hard as anyone, so why shouldn't we be paid just as well?

The guy sweeping the streets or laying tar on the highway probably sweats up a storm, but he isn't middle class. Working hard doesn't mean shit. The key matter is the extent to which society is willing to reward your hard work.

 

[TelePaul]

I like the way I said it better.

 

[muttley600]

Muttleys tools amount to £35000, which isn't alot to invest in a business. The problem is that your job, which you qualify as highly specialised, is still rampant with competition...be that high end quality repairs or the cowboys people mentioned. In short...thems the breaks.

Woow there tiger Thats what they are insured for and thats the maximum cover I can get for an affordable premium. They are worth a good deal more to me and many would be impossible to replace. Hand tools become part of you the same as your favorite guitar, they have a feel and response unique to them. That is by no means the extent to the investment in the business either. My business plan runs on a five year basis and investment new and returned is above that figure by some distance. Wood stock alone is more valueable than my machines/tools. I'm sure you can get your head round that what with your current learning

 

[TelePaul]

Woow there tiger Thats what they are insured for and thats the maximum cover I can get for an affordable premium. They are worth a good deal more to me and many would be impossible to replace. Hand tools become part of you the same as your favorite guitar, they have a feel and response unique to them. That is by no means the extent to the investment in the business either. My business plan runs on a five year basis and investment new and returned is above that figure by some distance. Wood stock alone is more valueable than my machines/tools. I'm sure you can get your head round that what with your current learning

Would you like to put a figure on your private companys initial start up capital sans the banks input? Obviously its up to you. My point is that start up capital for a business like yours isn't as high as, say, a car manufacturer. Even the nature of your product means you can store it more easily than something larger. I was making a point about barriers to entry.

 

[32-20-Blues]

Would you like to put a figure on your private companys initial start up capital sans the banks input? Obviously its up to you.

That's probably not a fair question.

 

[muttley600]

I like the way I said it better.

Yeh, but as far as supply and demand goes I'm booked at the bench on commisions for the next year. I can shift as many short run guitars as I can make. The point of repairs is not just the money, honestly it dosent pay that well, it is all about profile and staying in the loop and I lovge meeting new players. I could never afford to use it as a loss leader though I'm too small a workshop for that it has to pay for itself anything above is my Christmas bonus

 

[TelePaul]

The point of repairs is not just the money, honestly it dosent pay that well, it is all about profile and staying in the loop and I lovge meeting new players. I could never afford to use it as a loss leader though I'm too small a workshop for that it has to pay for itself anything above is my Christmas bonus

Well that answers Lights previous question.

 

[muttley600]

Would you like to put a figure on your private companys initial start up capital sans the banks input? Obviously its up to you.

Its hard to put a figure on the start up because I started small and grew with it. No one would back me to start as busy as I am now. Its more a case of how much growth Capital I need to stay as. I'm not doing a plan for a while yet but I would guess at about 50k over the next 5-8 years would be about right. I won't be getting that from the bank most will be reinvestment and some buy in for the right associates and family. From there hopefully I'm gonna be cruising to a good even return and onto retirement. One thing I have spent the last 15 years avoiding is becoming to highly geared in terms of investment. I don't want to be the next Martin or Taylor just have a good established, repected business to leave for the kids.

If I was to guess at how much it would cost me know to go from year Zero and have the facility and stock I have, a wild ball park guess would be about 250k minimum. But like I said no one in the UK would buy into that. Investment capital here is as rare as rockin horse shit.

Now if you start asking me about profit and loss your pushing yer luck

 

[Light]

Just for the record, our services are quite in demand, and we have no shortage of work (well, November tends to be really fucking slow, but that's just because everyone is spending their money on Christmas Presents, or some such). The people in town who actually make a living with there guitars (and many of them are doing just fine on the basic middle class lifestyle thing, by the way, so yes, professional musicians can do just fine) have, for the most part, tried the other repair shops in town, and have tried the "cowboys", and they all bring there stuff to US. Why? Because when they bring their guitars to us, they get high quality work. These guys can feel differences that I can't (seriously, some of these guys are freaky with the small changes they can feel), but when they bring their guitars to us, we can get it where they want it. If their stuff needs major repair, they know that we will do it right the first time, in a timely fashion, and that we will be there for them if there are ever any problems. In short they are happy with our work. And that goes for all of our customers.

I'm comfortable with my lifestyle, and with our shops business plan. But I do get upset with people saying I don't deserve what I've got, and I get REALLY upset with people telling me I'm a thief for charging what I'm charging, or that I'm EVER out to get "every possible penny" out of my customers. We frequently advise people against spending money when the money would be better spent on a new guitar (which is NOT going to be spent in our shop, because our guitars are usually WAY out of their price range). We treat out customers very well, and we have NEVER tried to rip one off, or been in any way dishonest with any of them. We do it that way because it is the right thing to do, but it is also an essential part of our business plan. This is a word of mouth business, and while we do some occasional advertising, the vast majority of our business comes in because someone asked a friend "who should I take my guitar too," and was given our name. If we started treating our customers the way some people here suggest, we would be out of business in a year, because our customers would stop coming in themselves, and they would tell their friends to do the same.

Oh, and every now and then someone will say, "so and so told me they could do it for less." Our typical response is along the lines of, "well, then take it to them, but if they mess it up, it is going to cost twice as much for us to fix their mistakes as it would for us to do it right in the first place."


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[TelePaul]

If I was to guess at how much it would cost me know to go from year Zero and have the facility and stock I have, a wild ball park guess would be about 250k minimum. But like I said no one in the UK would buy into that. Investment capital here is as rare as rockin horse shit.

Don't wanna piss on your bonfire because I respect that you're doing something you love, but I think the invesstment thing is due to the nature of your business. I wonder how many bank managers know off hand what a luthier even is? And no matter how good your business plan or pitch is, they'll stil be more inclined to go with I.T or retail services. Which sucks.

 

[muttley600]

Just for the record, our services are quite in demand, and we have no shortage of work (well, November tends to be really fucking slow, but that's just because everyone is spending their money on Christmas Presents, or some such). The people in town who actually make a living with there guitars (and many of them are doing just fine on the basic middle class lifestyle thing, by the way, so yes, professional musicians can do just fine) have, for the most part, tried the other repair shops in town, and have tried the "cowboys", and they all bring there stuff to US. Why? Because when they bring their guitars to us, they get high quality work. These guys can feel differences that I can't (seriously, some of these guys are freaky with the small changes they can feel), but when they bring their guitars to us, we can get it where they want it. If their stuff needs major repair, they know that we will do it right the first time, in a timely fashion, and that we will be there for them if there are ever any problems. In short they are happy with our work. And that goes for all of our customers.

I'm comfortable with my lifestyle, and with our shops business plan. But I do get upset with people saying I don't deserve what I've got, and I get REALLY upset with people telling me I'm a thief for charging what I'm charging, or that I'm EVER out to get "every possible penny" out of my customers. We frequently advise people against spending money when the money would be better spent on a new guitar (which is NOT going to be spent in our shop, because our guitars are usually WAY out of their price range). We treat out customers very well, and we have NEVER tried to rip one off, or been in any way dishonest with any of them. We do it that way because it is the right thing to do, but it is also an essential part of our business plan. This is a word of mouth business, and while we do some occasional advertising, the vast majority of our business comes in because someone asked a friend "who should I take my guitar too," and was given our name. If we started treating our customers the way some people here suggest, we would be out of business in a year, because our customers would stop coming in themselves, and they would tell their friends to do the same.

Oh, and every now and then someone will say, "so and so told me they could do it for less." Our typical response is along the lines of, "well, then take it to them, but if they mess it up, it is going to cost twice as much for us to fix their mistakes as it would for us to do it right in the first place."


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

Amen Brother, Amen to that!!

 

[muttley600]

Don't wanna piss on your bonfire because I respect that you're doing something you love, but I think the invesstment thing is due to the nature of your business. I wonder how many bank managers know off hand what a luthier even is? And no matter how good your business plan or pitch is, they'll stil be more inclined to go with I.T or retail services. Which sucks.

Absolutely and your not pissing on my bag of chips.I knew that twenty years ago which is why everything in the business has grown slowly and at my pace. You wouldn't believe how many banks want a piece of me now tho! The business plans are not done for their benifit however. They are done for mine. I know you interested in business and as a model guitar makeing has some unusual considerations. PM if your inerested they would bore the ass off most here

 

[TelePaul]

Absolutely and your not pissing on my bag of chips.I knew that twenty years ago which is why everything in the business has grown slowly and at my pace. You wouldn't believe how many banks want a piece of me now tho! The business plans are not done for their benifit however. They are done for mine.

Thats cool. I didnt know how much of your business was making and how mcuh was repairing. Do you sell directly or is there a middleman you supply to?

 

[muttley600]

Thats cool. I didnt know how mcuh of your business was making and how mcuh was repairing. Do you sell directly or is there a middleman you supply to?

Mostly commision, short runs I shift through the few remaing outlets that arn't franchise and also at festivals etc and also to the interested enquirer. I haven't touched on another side of the business which accounts for a chunk of work thats making Gambas and lutes.

 

[TelePaul]

Mostly commision, short runs I shift through the few remaing outlets that arn't franchise and also at festivals etc and also to the interested enquirer. I haven't touched on another side of the business which accounts for a chunk of work thats making Gambas and lutes.

That looks like the way to go, full customisation. AT least byou have your own legacy.

 

[muttley600]

That looks like the way to go, full customisation. AT least byou have your own legacy.

More I hope that there is something there for the kids when they are older. If they want it!!

 

[TelePaul]

More I hope that there is something there for the kids when they are older. If they want it!!

That'd be cool. Was there a history of woodcraft in your family or what?

 

[muttley600]

That'd be cool. Was there a history of woodcraft in your family or what?

Not at all. Come to think of it the milkman always used to whittle on wood while he made his rounds

 

[TelePaul]

Not at all. Come to think of it the milkman always used to whittle on wood while he made his rounds

Well at least this thread has been good for SOMETHING!