Under The Hood - Inside the Marshall V67G and the Studio Projects C1

[Harvey Gerst]

Originally posted by MrZekeMan

Harvey Gerst

Do you think these mics are close enough in performance that it negates the usefulness of having them both?

No, there are voices that have energies in different ranges that will excite differernt resonances in microphones. Even mics that sound this close will sometimes differ greatly in how they handle a specific instrument or a specific voice. If you plan on having a studio, having both makes sense. If it's just gonna be for you and your voice, find the one that works best for your voice and go with that.

I'm a real green horn so this might be a silly question. How much does a 2db hotter signal and 2db quieter translate to sound quality? How big a difference does it make in the final product of your track after you've recorded?

Most of the differences are easily eq-ed, but each mic's overall sonic signature will vary depending on angle, distance, intensity and the material being recorded. It can often take several months to hear the subtle differences between two similar mics (and it may not make all that much difference if your application isn't all that critical). After you pass a certain level, the difference is in inches, not feet.

Since there has been such hype about the C1 compared to the U87, do you think you will be able to A/B them and give us the low down on them? It would be interesting to know the real scoop on them. To see just how similar they are.

I can, but I won't. As Dot pointed out, he had to make some eq adjustments on the order of 3 dB (that's double) at several frequencies to make it sound the way he "remembered" the sound of the U87.

The U87 is a multi-pattern mic - the C1 is not. The off axis response of the two mics will be different, the basic sonic signatures are different, and the overload and distortion characteristics will be different, simply because of the different manufacturing philosophy. But on a quick listen, most people just won't hear any big difference.

Under the right circumstances, I can easily make a Shure SM-57 sound as good or better than a U87 - FOR SOME THINGS. That doesn't make a 57 as good or "just like" an 87.

Thanks for your hard work on our behalf Harvey. I owe you a few cold beers if we ever meet up.

Zeke

I'll settle for a couple of Cokes.

 

[BBB]

Ahhhh. Back to the technical aspects of mic's. How refreshing.

Thanks Harvey for the additional insight into mic comparisons.

 

[alanhyatt]

I will answer several of your questions at one time, if that's ok.

TubeDude,

No here. Outside of a couple of changes like the 6 um capsule, and some value changes, there is not much difference between the CR998, and the T3. Most of my work appears on the C1, and the C3. I am not a tube guy, but needed a tube mic, so we took the CR998, did some modifications, and out pops a T3.

The CR998 will never be imported into this country. Its artistic look, and reverse AKG logo would bring the lawyers out of the woodwork. All of the CR998 leads from the USA going to China are now told to talk to me and suggested to get a T3. I think the CR998 will be discontinued shortly.

The T3 is my favorite mic, and that is only my opinion. I am not trying to sell you a vacuum here, but to answer your questions I have to point out the facts. Steve Paul is an amazing mic guy, and if you want to wait a long time like Weston did, you will get back a modified mic that sounds great, but you may want to wait until Harvey, Tom Cram, and Dot do their tests, because IMO, the T3 does not need any modification. It is a very warm sounding mic just the way it is, so why spend more when you do not have to.

Hard2Hear,

I will be at NAMM in the Arena in booth #5316. I beg you to come buy so you can see how I do my demos. Yes, the U87 is on display, but for one reason only, it is a microphone of reference, as most engineers know its sound. It is there to refresh the ears so when they listen to another mic, they can come to their own conclusions.

It is not done as a marketing "hype" thing. If you get there, then you can report your findings. I don’t know you so come by and do not tell me whom you are. You will see, that when you get my demo, I never compare the two mics, and after you can tell me who you are and post my behavior.

To the Group,

I know some of you want to hear comparisons between the U87 and the C1. Harvey is correct in saying that the comparison should not be made, as the C1 is not a multi-pattern mic. Dual diaphragms in the cardiod pattern are different as there is no film on the rear of the cardioid only capsule. In addition, there are eq differences between them.

I will again state, that I am flattered some people are willing to make that comparison, but I don't. Yes, I have listened to both side by side, as I own a U87, and many other great mics. I will give you more statements from others who have made them if you want them. I am happy to email them to you, but they are the words of others.

So take the mic for what it is.

 

[MISTERQCUE]

Best of luck to you Alan! Would love to check out a C1!!!

 

[Harvey Gerst]

Alan, that was an excellent post.

 

[alanhyatt]

Harvey,

I am learning Your a good teacher

 

[Chris F]

Welcome to America. Do whatever you want. It's a free country. But don't try to shut me down for using my rights of free speech. If Alan thinks I have libeled him in any way, hey, let his attorney drop me a line.

That's precious. His lawyer can address the court summons to "c7sus.....somewhere out there in cyberspace".

If you're so honest and full of integrity, why hide behind the anonymity of an unresolved chord symbol while slamming others for being "dishonest"? That seems more than a bit disingenuous, to say the least...it's like hiding behind a tree and calling other people names like "coward" as they pass by. And nobody is trying to "shut you down", or "take away your free speech"....we just want to talk about MICROPHONES in the MICROPHONE FORUM. What's so difficult about that?

 

[tubedude]

123

C7- Well dude, regardless of your opinion, you repeatedly post that crap here instead of in the cave where it belongs and it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. At least 10 people have asked you to quit, INCLUDING the moderator. You are quickly becoming the FT of the mic forum... dont let that happen, you are being silly and way overbearing. Again, and I should NOT be saying it more than once... let it go while you still have friends and respect. Its not worth all this... its really not... get laid or something and come back with a fresh attitude!
Peace,
Paul

 

[OldGrover]

Argh. I can't believe I am posting here.

I too think Alan's presence here is worthwhile - he's starting to get the swing of this thing and he's actually talking about mics, which seems to be a nice change.

Everyone knows who the hell he is... fine, we'll take what he says with a grain of salt. But his views are still interesting and he has just as much right to be here as any other.

As far as the ethics line, well, this *IS* the wrong place to post it. Full stop. If you want to post a diatribe on how awful globalization is, feel free - the cave is thataway. I might even join in - I've got a lot of opinions that way myself.

But, for god's sake - if you're not going to post about microphones, what the hell are you doing in the microphone thread?

The C1 sounds like an interesting mic and one that I'll definitely take a gander at, among others, as does the T3.

 

[camn]

hmmm..

xoxo

 

[Recording Engineer]

So Watcha Know?

C7sus, I ask that you do NOT talk about what you do NOT know in regards to my business with with Alan Hyatt. I also ask you AGAIN, to go STRAIGHT to Dragon in regard to Alan Hyatt SPAMMING as I DO NOT see ANY SPAMMING going-on here. I DO NOT want to see ANYTHING about that again. Lastly, I ask you to go STRAIGHT to Dragon with ANY complaints you may have in my moderation of this forum.

I'll be back here tomorrow in hopes we're talking about mics and I'll be answering the question tubedude asked me as well as a few other things.

Thank You so kindly,

Recording Engineer (RE)
Weston Ray

 

[JerryD]

I think this is excellent.

C7sus,

I'm not going to buy a mic if Alan says it's the greatest thing since
sliced bread. I might purchase it if a pro recording engineer
, like Harvey, says it's a decent mic. I might also look at some
reviews like:

http://www.prorec.com/prorec/articles.nsf/articles/2CAB4F71AF9E2A1C86256A650081ECF9

Alan can give us some specifics on how the mic is made.
Harvey can verify it.

How cool is that?

I havn't seen any spam. Alan has been pretty cautious and understanding that spam is not wanted. Believe me I've been reading waiting for spam. There is none. Just details on the mic.
That would fall under M...I...C...R...O...P...H...O...N....E. Forum.

,Jerry

 

[Gidge]

The guys over at ProRec are some of the straightest shooters in the biz....when every other review raved about the Marshall MXL-2001, they trashed it.....come to find out, the mic isnt very good...imagine that......

C7 obviously thinks we are all goobers and will jump on every mic based on one persons opinion.....I know whos opinion I can trust and youll see me often passing on their opinions and recommendations.....

C7, go talking your freedom of speech crap somewhere else....with freedom comes responsibility, and you are being irresponsible....this is DRAGON'S board and he appointed WES as a moderator.....if Wes overstepped his bound (which he didnt) its DRAGON'S call...not yours...so Ill exercise my freedom to tell you to shut the fuck up and take it to the cave you whiney ass little bitch......

 

[blinddogblues]

I ordered my C-1 today. I have heard all I need to hear about it.

 

[JerryD]

Back to the business.

Harvey,

How does the C1 compare to the Marshall V67g?

Also I was wondering will you be posting any more sample songs?
I would download a 20mb file if I had too.
That was cool.

I sure hope they come up with a better format than MP3. It defeats the whole purpose of getting a good sound.

Thanks in advance.

 

[dobro]

Good thread: Harvey's pictures, analysis and evaluation.

Good thread: useful input from a manufacturer, not just a sales pitch.

Good thread: C7's challenges, and the responses they provoked -puts things to the test and lets people make up their own minds.

Some people got upset. Nothing new or special in that.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

Re: Back to the business.

Originally posted by JerryD

Harvey,

How does the C1 compare to the Marshall V67g?

Bottom line; the'yre pretty damn close to each other in sound. The Sound Projects C1 is a little hotter (about 2 dB more output), and a little quieter (again, by about 2 dB). Overall, the frequency response is very similar, with maybe a -1dB shelf around 800 to 1,000 Hz on the Sound Projects C1. The Marshall MXL-V67G sounds slightly fuller, but again by a very small amount.

So, is there a clear-cut winner? Nope, they're both really nice mics that will do a pretty good job for vocals where you're looking for a full bodied, rich vocal sound. They're both retailing at around $300 with a street price of right around $200. The Sound Projects C1 is heavier and looks like the Brauner VM-1 mic while the Marshall MXL-V67G has a distinctive AKG C12VR look and is not quite as rugged.

They're both pretty good values for the money.

One warning before you run out and plunk your money down on a C1:

This is only a preliminary test. I've only heard this one mic so far. Quality control and consistency are big problems with Chinese and Russian microphones. I'm going to surprise Alan Hyatt Monday and ask him to send me another set of the mics to see how close they all match each other. I know the Marshall MXL-V67Gs are consistent, but I can't guarantee that's also true of the Sound Projects C1 - al least, not yet.

If you have $200 burning a hole in your pocket and you can't wait to run out and buy the C1, you probably won't go too far wrong, but I can't give it a sweeping endorsment, until I'm certain that your C1 will sound the same as the C1 I just listened to.

But so far, it "looks" like it's gonna be another winner in the low cost, big mic race.

Also I was wondering will you be posting any more sample songs?
I would download a 20mb file if I had too.
That was cool.

I sure hope they come up with a better format than MP3. It defeats the whole purpose of getting a good sound.

I'd like to try it again, with a different encoder perhaps, when I get a little more time.

 

[sjoko2]

Christ guys - you have a great thread here, with cool information. If anyone doesn't agree with talking about products that are not made in the US - Don't read the threads.
Or perhaps.... is homerecording.com for US citizens only? Oh dear, nobody told me that, I better go. Damn! I'm recording some Americans! I should give that job to a born US person
(so all I have to do is find a native indian engineer, petty there aren't enough of them now, most of them got slaughtered a while back).

The more professionals involved with homerecording, the more you will learn, and that, afterall, is the idea right?

I do consultancy work for a number of manufacturers, and I receive "at cost" or "free" products from some others.... does that mean I should never talk about any of those products, even though I am prepared to share my detailed knowledge of them?

Grow up - lets talk gear, recording and microphones. If you don't like it - you're on the wrong website.

PS I tried a matched pair of the Marshalls when they first came out and was amazed how good they were for the money.

Another PS - Slightly off the topic but - Hey Harvey? I'm curious... what do you think of the Manley Gold?

 

[JerryD]

Whoops

Sorry Harvey.

I remember reading that now. I think that's the third time you
have copied that right?

I'll pay attention next time.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

Originally posted by sjoko2

Another PS - Slightly off the topic but - Hey Harvey? I'm curious... what do you think of the Manley Gold?

Well, it's way out of my league, but it's a wonderfully detailed mic. I tend to like a slightly warmer sound for large diaphragm mics, but then again, I'm not recording much classical music where I need THAT much detail. I sure wish I could afford a Manley Gold, or better yet, afford EveAnna Manley herself. She's a pretty amazing person.