Syncing a Tascam 246 to my DAW - audio glitches

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famous beagle

famous beagle

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I've tried posting this in several different places, including the Reaper forums over at Cockos, and I haven't gotten a response, so I thought I'd try here.

I'm syncing the 246 to Reaper with a JL Cooper PPS-1 (version 3) sync box.

Reaper is chasing tape like a pro, but the problem is that I'm getting some clicks and pops when the MIDI instruments play along with the tape.

I tried rendering the MIDI instruments to see if that helped, but it's still doing it.

I had originally striped the SMPTE code at -10db (at the recommendation of the JLC manual), and then I tried again at -6dB with the same results.

Anyone have any experience with this?

Thanks!
 
What's the setup? What sequencer are you using, and are the instruments outboard or VSTi?
Are you recording the instruments to tape or Reaper?

I had a lot of problems in the early days with VSTs and tape, Sonar would insist on also trying to sync the souncard's audio to tape as well, instead of just letting the VSTs play so they could be recorded to tape.
In the end, I gave up and used outboard synthesizers for everything.
 
So far all I've done is record some MIDI tracks in Reaper using VSTi's (and Reaper as the sequencer) and then I recorded one track of live synth to tape to see if it was all staying in sync. And it does seem to be staying in perfect sync, but I'm getting those pops and clicks from the MIDI tracks.

I haven't tried using outboard synths with it yet. That would kind of defeat my whole purpose because the main thing I would be using in MIDI-land would be EZDrummer. I had thought about syncing my Korg Volca Keys and Volca Bass as well via Reaper's MIDI sequencer, so maybe that would work since it's outboard gear. I haven't tried that yet, though. Those are really the only two outboard synths I have.

If I can't get it to play nice with EZDrummer, then for the songs that need it, I'll most likely just forgo the syncing thing for now, get all my MIDI stuff pre-recorded/pre-mixed and then just print them to tracks 1 and 2. I don't foresee using a ton of MIDI instruments, but I figured if I could safe myself from having to print the drums, it would be worth it to get the sync thing going. And if I can get the Volcas playing as well, then that would be cool too.
 
Oh, I didn't know Reaper had MIDI support these days. I might have to check it out again sometime.

Anyway, the problem sounds to me like Reaper is trying to sync the VST audio stream with the tape and doing a bad job of it. Presumably EZDrummer is also hosted by Reaper? See if you can get EZDrummer to either self-host, or run in a different VST host. You may need to make it output to another audio device, not the one Reaper is using. It should appear to Reaper as a MIDI synth and you can use that as the MIDI output for the tracks.
You might have to add your own latency compensation to the MIDI, however - dunno if that's still a problem these days.

One of the worst engineering headaches I had was recording the original version of my song, Borderline, just over 10 years ago. The DXi plugin in that instance was an electric piano modeller, 'Mr. Tramp' I think. It worked perfectly up until the point I needed to record. Then it wigged out completely and decided that the audio stream was 48KHz while telling the instrument it was still 44. I was able to make it work only by using the varispeed control on the recorder to compensate for the change in pitch.
After that I started running the virtual instrument on a separate laptop and eventually phased it out. More recently I started using them again, but open-source ones that can run in a Raspberry Pi. (Probably not much help for EZdrummer, though)
 
I've used "Mr. Tramp" before. :) I think I still may have it.

Yes EZDrummer is hosted in Reaper.

In case you missed this in the original post, I tried rendering the MIDI tracks in Reaper so that they were just an audio file (and the MIDI VSTi tracks were muted), and I was still having the issue. I would have thought that doing that would take Reaper's MIDI/VSTi sync issues out of the equation, but maybe I'm wrong?

I can try it using EZDrummer in standalone mode, but I'm not sure if it can sync externally on its own. I can check out the manual I suppose.

Unfortunately, I don't have another audio interface---I just have my Tascam US-1800---so that's not an option. (Unless I'm misunderstanding you.)

I do own Mackie Tracktion and I think a version of Cakewalk too. I never use them, so there would be a slight learning curve, but I suppose I could try it in them to see if I have better luck.
 
famous beagle said:
In case you missed this in the original post, I tried rendering the MIDI tracks in Reaper so that they were just an audio file (and the MIDI VSTi tracks were muted), and I was still having the issue. I would have thought that doing that would take Reaper's MIDI/VSTi sync issues out of the equation, but maybe I'm wrong?
Click to expand...

If what Reaper is doing is locking the digital audio against the tape, the glitches are probably a result of it skipping or dropping out to catch up when the sync drifts. If that's the case, it won't matter if the instruments are pre-rendered or not, they'll both go into the same glitchy audio stream. What you need to do is somehow stop Reaper from syncing the audio, while still having the sequencer chase the tape.

The easiest way to do that is to offload EZDrummer to a different audio interface, in particular by making it run standalone. What about the computer's onboard sound? HDMI out? Often the onboard sound is noisy, but it might be worth trying as an experiment, just to see if the glitching still happens.
 
Ok I'll mess around with trying EZDrummer in standalone and/or using the onboard sound card. I'm pretty sure EZD has its own sequencer (called "song builder"), but I don't know if I can get it to chase time code while in standalone mode.

I'll mess with it. Thanks!
 
famous beagle said:
Ok I'll mess around with trying EZDrummer in standalone and/or using the onboard sound card. I'm pretty sure EZD has its own sequencer (called "song builder"), but I don't know if I can get it to chase time code while in standalone mode.
I'll mess with it. Thanks!
Click to expand...

Running standalone, EZ should appear in Reaper as a MIDI device, so you should still be able to use Reaper for the sequencer-chasing-tape bit, just not for the sound output.
 
jpmorris said:
Running standalone, EZ should appear in Reaper as a MIDI device, so you should still be able to use Reaper for the sequencer-chasing-tape bit, just not for the sound output.
Click to expand...

Hmmm .... I've never tried that before. I'll have to give it a shot, as I'm not exactly sure how it would work.
 
Or...you could output all the VSTi stuff into actual audio tracks, and that will take a major load off your system.
 
miroslav said:
Or...you could output all the VSTi stuff into actual audio tracks, and that will take a major load off your system.
Click to expand...

I'm not entirely sure I understand what you're saying. Could you elaborate a bit?

Would this deal with routing only within Reaper or sending more things out analog outputs of my interface? I only have four of them.
 
miroslav said:
Or...you could output all the VSTi stuff into actual audio tracks, and that will take a major load off your system.
Click to expand...
It sounds like the first thing he tried was baking the VSTi stuff into regular audio. Since that didn't help that makes me think that something to do with how Reaper is handling the audio playback while chasing an external source.
 
I only mention it since you guys are talking about running EZD in standalone mode to avoid the VSTi thing...which made it sound like the VSTi stuff was taxing the system....but yeah, if converting the MIDI to audio ("rendering" it) didn't help, then I agree, it's the sync.

I would try it with the DAW as master....it's the better way of doing it...of course, that would mean the tape deck would have to be able to chase/lock...but it also means the DAW is sending the MTC/SMPTE, and it will be much steadier than coming from the tape to the DAW.

I'm not sure if the JL Copper sync box is up to the task though...as it has to provide the sync to the tape AND be able to directly control the capstan motor. If I recall...the Copper is just a SMPTE to MTC converter box...right?

When I was running my 16-track deck, I had the tape as master because it made more sense to me at the time...but now I run the DAW as master, which is the more recommended way to go, and I have a much more robust (albeit involved) clocking/synchronizing setup with a TimeLine MicroLynx and a Lucid SSG digital clock box that outputs both Word clock to the DAW and converters, and video sync as master reference to the MicroLynx which is controlling the tape deck directly at the capstan.
 
I really don't think the 246 can chase the DAW, but I suppose I could double check. Everything I've read (in books and online) with regards to cassette 4-tracks always shows the tape as the master. The Tascam 246 manual has very little to say on the subject and only shows one diagram.

From the PPS-1 manual, it seems that it always involves the DAW chasing the tape.

However, I've only tried SMPTE so far. Actually I tried FSK mode only once, but now having looked at the manual for the PPS-1, I see that I didn't do the correct procedure. I had read the manual for SMPTE and mistakenly assumed the procedure would be the same for FSK and that I would just need to put the switch on "FSK" instead of "SMPTE." Now I see that's not the case. So first I'll try doing FSK properly and see if I have better luck with that.
 
Yeah...I think some of that info tends to be about tape decks that really don't have the required sync/transport processor control to act as slave. I doubt the 246 will have those options...I didn't catch it that it was a cassette deck.
The Cooper manual is no exception...as it's strictly a time code conversion box, and it's not going to get into transport control and chase/lock setups...etc...so it only makes sense for them to just talk about the DAW chasing the tape.

If you get into the pro-ish stuff...then you can go either master or slave with the tape deck....and in a DAW/tape deck scenario, the DAW is better at being master than slave. It will be free of glitches since it's never going to have to adjust to tape deck/SMPTE/MTC anomalies.

I don't think you will do better with FSK over SMPTE....I think the problem is the DAW trying to follow the tape, which on a cassette deck is not going to be as steady as a more robust R2R, and certainly not as steady as the DAW.

Why are using a cassette deck anyway....I thought you picked up a R2R not too long ago...?
 
miroslav said:
Yeah...I think some of that info tends to be about tape decks that really don't have the required sync/transport processor control to act as slave. I doubt the 246 will have those options...I didn't catch it that it was a cassette deck.
The Cooper manual is no exception...as it's strictly a time code conversion box, and it's not going to get into transport control and chase/lock setups...etc...so it only makes sense for them to just talk about the DAW chasing the tape.

If you get into the pro-ish stuff...then you can go either master or slave with the tape deck....and in a DAW/tape deck scenario, the DAW is better at being master than slave. It will be free of glitches since it's never going to have to adjust to tape deck/SMPTE/MTC anomalies.

I don't think you will do better with FSK over SMPTE....I think the problem is the DAW trying to follow the tape, which on a cassette deck is not going to be as steady as a more robust R2R, and certainly not as steady as the DAW.

Why are using a cassette deck anyway....I thought you picked up a R2R not too long ago...?
Click to expand...

Yes you're right. I have a Fostex 80 and Yamaha RM804 mixer that are both in perfect working order.

I also have a Tascam 388 that my friend gave me, and, other than the monitor buss, it's working well too. Cory (Sweetbeats) has been graciously helping me to remotely troubleshoot it, so it's a good possibility that I'll get it fully functional. Even if I can't get the monitor buss working, however, I'll still probably use it as my main recorder (just monitoring off the main mix) and store the Fostex.

I'm using cassette just because I've always loved the medium. It's just fun for me, and certain songs seem to want to be 4-track songs for some reason.
 
miroslav said:
I only mention it since you guys are talking about running EZD in standalone mode to avoid the VSTi thing...which made it sound like the VSTi stuff was taxing the system....but yeah, if converting the MIDI to audio ("rendering" it) didn't help, then I agree, it's the sync.
Click to expand...

Yeah - I suggested running it standalone to force it to use a separate audio path for EZDrummer's output. My theory is that Reaper is damaging the output stream that's under it's control, in its attempts to chase tape. This kind of thing happened an awful lot a decade ago when I was using virtual instruments in SONAR slaved to tape. Using a separate output path would at least help to determine if that's the case.
 
I would love to get a detailed run down of how you have set it up. I have tried to have Reaper chase my MS-16 using a JL Cooper PPS-1 and I had zero luck... I couldn't get any syncing at all.

Not to interrupt - but if it isn't much trouble an idiot's guide would be great :)
 
famous beagle said:
I'm using cassette just because I've always loved the medium. It's just fun for me, and certain songs seem to want to be 4-track songs for some reason.
Click to expand...

Well...if you only want to make them 4-track songs...why is there a need to sync to the DAW...?
I assumed you were doing multiple dumps to DAW....and that's why you needed to sync the DAW and tape.
If you have DAW VSTi tracks plus the tape...then how is it a 4-track song...? ;)

That said...if you are doing mor than 4 tracks....run it like a CLASP setup and forget the sync.
I mean...do you need to archive your cassette tracks...?
Can you get the PB head output off the cassette while tracking to it?

So then just monitor your DAW tracks...and whatever you are recording to the cassette tape...just monitor it live as it goes in (not off the cassette tape)...Meanwhile, you feed the PB head output back to the DAW and record that (without monitoring it, as it will be our of sync.

You then repeat that for the next track to tape, and the next...etc....the only issue is, you won't be able to monitor those tape recorded tracks until you align them in the DAW with the other DAW tracks.
You have to calculate the distance & speed from REC head to PB head...and then use that for your DAW to tell you how much of an offset you have and how much to move the tracks.

It's a half-assed CLASP approach...but it should work. You can then record as many tracks as you like to the DAW, and tape sync is not needed, and tape fluctuations are irrelevant because it's happening in real time. The only thing you need to know is the offset.
The monitoring setup might need to be jury rigged, but not too much of a big deal.
 
miroslav said:
Well...if you only want to make them 4-track songs...why is there a need to sync to the DAW...?
I assumed you were doing multiple dumps to DAW....and that's why you needed to sync the DAW and tape.
If you have DAW VSTi tracks plus the tape...then how is it a 4-track song...? ;)

That said...if you are doing mor than 4 tracks....run it like a CLASP setup and forget the sync.
I mean...do you need to archive your cassette tracks...?
Can you get the PB head output off the cassette while tracking to it?

So then just monitor your DAW tracks...and whatever you are recording to the cassette tape...just monitor it live as it goes in (not off the cassette tape)...Meanwhile, you feed the PB head output back to the DAW and record that (without monitoring it, as it will be our of sync.

You then repeat that for the next track to tape, and the next...etc....the only issue is, you won't be able to monitor those tape recorded tracks until you align them in the DAW with the other DAW tracks.
You have to calculate the distance & speed from REC head to PB head...and then use that for your DAW to tell you how much of an offset you have and how much to move the tracks.

It's a half-assed CLASP approach...but it should work. You can then record as many tracks as you like to the DAW, and tape sync is not needed, and tape fluctuations are irrelevant because it's happening in real time. The only thing you need to know is the offset.
The monitoring setup might need to be jury rigged, but not too much of a big deal.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the explanation, but that's not really what I'm wanting to do. I just wanted to sync the MIDI tracks (mostly EZDrummer and some synths, but occasionally some horn samples maybe, etc.) so I wouldn't have to print them. Then I could fill up the other three tracks and mix down from there.

If I can't do it that way, then I'll most likely print a stereo mix of all my MIDI tracks first (if there are some) to tracks 3 & 4, record stuff on tracks 1 & 2, and then do an external bounce to the DAW and bring that mix back to a new section of tape to add two more tracks (possibly adding another track during the external mix to the DAW and/or on the return to the tape).

It's not a matter of fidelity or practicality even; it's just that I enjoy working with the medium. I'm a nostalgic guy, and so getting this 80s technology to work is just fun for me. I enjoy working with the transport of a tape player much more than I do using the mouse or even a control surface.

It's just a personal preference. I like seeing this old technology work together like that.

I mean ... why don't you use your system like a CLASP system? Surely you could do it. But ... you just prefer not to, right?
 
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