Syncing a Tascam 246 to my DAW - audio glitches

[famous beagle]

I would love to get a detailed run down of how you have set it up. I have tried to have Reaper chase my MS-16 using a JL Cooper PPS-1 and I had zero luck... I couldn't get any syncing at all.

Not to interrupt - but if it isn't much trouble an idiot's guide would be great

Sure, no problem. But which version of the PPS-1 do you have? I have version 3.

 

[miroslav]

I mean ... why don't you use your system like a CLASP system? Surely you could do it. But ... you just prefer not to, right?

1.) I'm using a 24-track 2" tape deck...I don't need to do all that bouncing down stuff...I have enough tape tracks, and I can just do a single transfer to DAW.
2.) If I need to record more than 24 tracks to tape...my DAW/tape system is fully synchronized in both directions, so I don't have a problem running DAW as master.
3.) To run as a CLASP-type setup, means I would also need the DAW always on during tracking, and I would be technically tracking to the DAW via the tape. I don't want to do that, and I don't need to do that (see #1 & #2)



My point to you about going with a CLASP-type approach was...
1.) You can eliminate the sync requirement/issue...as I doubt you will get it sorted using the cassette tape.
2.) You could still use the cassette to actually track through and then it's recorded to DAW simultaneously.
3.) You then don't have to record your MIIDI/VSTi stuff to any of your tape tracks...you don't have to render them to audio tracks...and you don't have to do any track bouncing in order to make room for more tracks....and you still get use the cassette tape and all that.

 

[ashcat_lt]

I've never actually tried this in Reaper and frankly never even looked into it, but...

1) Make absolutely fuck sure that Reaper is set to the exact same frame rate as what you've striped. If one or the other is dropping frames when the other isn't, it can't help but screw everything up

B) Have you tried increasing your interface's buffer settings? Reaper might just need a little more to time to make all the calculations to do what you want. Idk why this wasn't the first reply on this thread, but whatevs.

III) Somebody mentioned CLASP, and that's actually my first suggestion here. IF (and I haven't researched your particular machine) you can monitor off the playback heads while recording, then you can just record "through" the cassette to an audio track in Reaper. It will have all of the nasty bullshit that you think you want from the cassette, and be as in synch as possible without any of the dicking around. It'll save you some cassettes cause you can rewind and record over at least a few times. You've got enough outputs from the interface that if you really also want the hassle and noise of mixing in analog, you can run back out and have at it.

 

[famous beagle]

1.) I'm using a 24-track 2" tape deck...I don't need to do all that bouncing down stuff...I have enough tape tracks, and I can just do a single transfer to DAW.
2.) If I need to record more than 24 tracks to tape...my DAW/tape system is fully synchronized in both directions, so I don't have a problem running DAW as master.
3.) To run as a CLASP-type setup, means I would also need the DAW always on during tracking, and I would be technically tracking to the DAW via the tape. I don't want to do that, and I don't need to do that (see #1 & #2)



My point to you about going with a CLASP-type approach was...
1.) You can eliminate the sync requirement/issue...as I doubt you will get it sorted using the cassette tape.
2.) You could still use the cassette to actually track through and then it's recorded to DAW simultaneously.
3.) You then don't have to record your MIIDI/VSTi stuff to any of your tape tracks...you don't have to render them to audio tracks...and you don't have to do any track bouncing in order to make room for more tracks....and you still get use the cassette tape and all that.

You're right about all that, but if I did that, then:

1) I would be dealing mostly with tracks on my DAW, which I don't like to do.
2) I would have to mix from my DAW, which I don't like to do.
3) It's not the nostalgic way of doing things.


Again, this is not about doing what's practical. If recording were only about practicality for me, then I would do away with everything and get a laptop, maybe a four-channel interface, call it a day, and do everything in the box. It's not at all about that for me. Half of the fun for me is the journey getting there. And I much prefer dealing with tape.

Now if I always had a drummer at the ready---or a real Rhodes or a group of horn players or string players, etc.)---and they could play quietly enough so they wouldn't disturb the neighbors at night (when I'm usually able to record), then I wouldn't really have a need for MIDI. But that's not the case, so sometimes I need to do what I have to do if I want a song to have something on it. But I try to keep it as close to tape as I can.

I'm not saying that I'm not practical in some ways, because I am. I like to use things to their fullest potential, so I'm always reading manuals cover to cover (even though I still have questions about things). And I don't like to waste money when I don't have to. So I have struggled with this idea of computer recording vs. analog recording because of that practical side of me. Like I said, it's MUCH more practical to get a laptop and an interface than all this outboard gear that I have. But it's a trade-off for me, because, also like I said, I just really love dealing with these older machines. So, my solution is to keep it as cheap as I can by almost always buying used (of course, much of this stuff is only available that way, but I'm also talking about things like cables and such) and trying to take advantage of deals when I can.

And to be honest, I just did a quick tally, and the sum total of what I paid for all the outboard gear in my racks---including effects, EQs, compressors, and mic pres, is around $1,400. That's not including cables, which is very hard for me to quantify because I've gradually collected them over a period of 20 years really. But that does include my A/I (Tascam US-1800), which belongs to the digital tally really.

On top of that are my recorders: Tascam 246 ($250), Tascam 388 (free), Fostex 80 with 4050 remote control and Yamaha RM804 mixer ($510 total).

And that's pretty much the extent of my recording gear (not including mics and instruments, obviously). So .. that's not that much more expensive than, say, an Apple laptop and a 4-channel interface. But I enjoy working with it so much more. And of course, I'm not saying there aren't ever headaches with it. Of course there are. But there are with the digital stuff too, especially when you upgrade or change something.

So, "tracking through the cassette recorder" is not the point to me. I'm not looking for a "cassette sound" or anything. I'm looking to enjoy the whole experience. And I'll tell you what, when I was in my control room closet (because the AC was too loud in the control room) recording an acoustic guitar the other night to the Tascam 246 , and I had my RC-71 remote running from the Tascam to me so I didn't have to get up every time for a new take --- and I had my punch in pedal running in there as well --- I was having a blast.

 

[famous beagle]

I've never actually tried this in Reaper and frankly never even looked into it, but...

1) Make absolutely fuck sure that Reaper is set to the exact same frame rate as what you've striped. If one or the other is dropping frames when the other isn't, it can't help but screw everything up

B) Have you tried increasing your interface's buffer settings? Reaper might just need a little more to time to make all the calculations to do what you want. Idk why this wasn't the first reply on this thread, but whatevs.

III) Somebody mentioned CLASP, and that's actually my first suggestion here. IF (and I haven't researched your particular machine) you can monitor off the playback heads while recording, then you can just record "through" the cassette to an audio track in Reaper. It will have all of the nasty bullshit that you think you want from the cassette, and be as in synch as possible without any of the dicking around. It'll save you some cassettes cause you can rewind and record over at least a few times. You've got enough outputs from the interface that if you really also want the hassle and noise of mixing in analog, you can run back out and have at it.

I just saw this when I finished replying to Miro. See above with regards to the "nasty bullshit" that I think I want from cassette.

Thanks for the tip about frame rate and buffer settings. I'll look into those things.

 

[miroslav]

You're right about all that, but if I did that, then:

1) I would be dealing mostly with tracks on my DAW, which I don't like to do.
2) I would have to mix from my DAW, which I don't like to do.
3) It's not the nostalgic way of doing things.

OK...but when you are also talking about MIDI tracks and VSTi instruments...then I lose you and the whole "I want to do 4-track songs" and "I don't like dealing mostly with DAW tracks"...and that you want to do things the "nostalgic" way.
I mean...it seems to me that you already ARE employing the DAW for a bunch of tracks, plus you want to also sync it to the tape...right?
It just seems like you're fooling yourself then when you talk about the cassette 4-track as though it's the only medium/device you are using.

Anyway...I was just trying to give you options and solutions for what you were really looking to do, with the gear you had on hand.
If you just want "nostalgia"...lose the DAW and just use the 4-track cassette deck and bounce 'em down like in the old days.

 

[famous beagle]

OK...but when you are also talking about MIDI tracks and VSTi instruments...then I lose you and the whole "I want to do 4-track songs" and "I don't like dealing mostly with DAW tracks"...and that you want to do things the "nostalgic" way.
I mean...it seems to me that you already ARE employing the DAW for a bunch of tracks, plus you want to also sync it to the tape...right?
It just seems like you're fooling yourself then when you talk about the cassette 4-track as though it's the only medium/device you are using.

Anyway...I was just trying to give you options and solutions for what you were really looking to do, with the gear you had on hand.
If you just want "nostalgia"...lose the DAW and just use the 4-track cassette deck and bounce 'em down like in the old days.

Oh, I actually lost my train of thought when talking about my practical side and forgot to mention one thing. I was actually considering getting an old-school stand-alone sequencer, like a Roland Micro Composer, and some older hardware sound modules/drum machines to go all out 80s and nostalgic, but that's when I had to draw the line. I had already put together my meager digital rig for the work that I do, and so I already had every MIDI instrument I needed and a very powerful sequencer at the ready. Adding an outboard sequencer and more hardware modules would mean not only more money but also more space, which was becoming an issue, so I had to move on.

For one, I don't use MIDI tracks on every song. Sometimes I do, though, so ... like I said, I'm using what I have already. And I guess "nostalgia" means something different for everyone. They were syncing tape machines to MIDI back in the 80s all over the place. Granted, they weren't using a DAW, but the MIDI-syncing technology has been around a long time (as I know you know).

I appreciate the suggestions.

I disagree with something "not being a 4-track song" if you use MIDI. Why would the manufacturers of those tape machines add those capabilities if they weren't meant to be used?

To me, this all comes back around to people do what makes them happy, and that's great. Some people take every opportunity to tell a tape user (it's even worse with cassette users) that their medium is crap and they're wasting their time. Others go on endless tirades about how digital sucks and it's not "real" recording. Others like Greg go on tirades about people using amp sims, but they have no problem using "sims" of compressors, EQs, etc.

I don't care about any of that. I think people should use whatever makes them happy. I'm not going to tell someone they're wasting their time with tape or digital or amp sims or plug-ins, etc.

I'm not fooling myself about anything, and I'm not claiming to be anything. I just like to use my cassette four-track sometimes, and I thought it'd be cool if I could sync it to a sequencer like I've read about so many times. It would have a practical use, but it would also be fun for me, too. It's really as simple as that.

 

[RFR]

Whatever makes you happy, whatever gives you the enjoyment of the process is the best method. In today's music climate it does seem more about the journey rather than the destination.

I mean think about it. Once the process is done, who in reality will hear it? A half a dozen people on soundcloud maybe? Friends and family? For completed music there is little to no audience nowadays. So, it really is all about the journey and doing it however is fun for you.

All that said, if it were me I'd do all the midi stuff standalone to a timecode track. It would be just like the old way but with a "better' drum machine. If you have a keyboard that has sequencing I guess that would work. In the old days, I'd do that with a Casio CZ101 and an Alesis drum machine, the older grey one.

On the tech side, I have no idea of an answer to your original question.

 

[famous beagle]

Whatever makes you happy, whatever gives you the enjoyment of the process is the best method. In today's music climate it does seem more about the journey rather than the destination.

I mean think about it. Once the process is done, who in reality will hear it? A half a dozen people on soundcloud maybe? Friends and family? For completed music there is little to no audience nowadays. So, it really is all about the journey and doing it however is fun for you.

All that said, if it were me I'd do all the midi stuff standalone to a timecode track. It would be just like the old way but with a "better' drum machine. If you have a keyboard that has sequencing I guess that would work. In the old days, I'd do that with a Casio CZ101 and an Alesis drum machine, the older grey one.

On the tech side, I have no idea of an answer to your original question.

Thanks RFR .. you and I feel the same way.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

B) Have you tried increasing your interface's buffer settings? Reaper might just need a little more to time to make all the calculations to do what you want. Idk why this wasn't the first reply on this thread, but whatevs.

It was my first suspicion. It sounds like audio playback buffering. But with all the MIDI and VSTi talk I thought I'd let the facts filter out, which they did when it was mentioned that turning the instruments (short audio samples) into an audio track (long audio sample) gave the same result. Reaper is having to constantly speed up and slow down to follow the cassette's rather loose concept of playback speed, and I bet it just needs more slack in the system to do that.

 

[famous beagle]

It was my first suspicion. It sounds like audio playback buffering. But with all the MIDI and VSTi talk I thought I'd let the facts filter out, which they did when it was mentioned that turning the instruments (short audio samples) into an audio track (long audio sample) gave the same result. Reaper is having to constantly speed up and slow down to follow the cassette's rather loose concept of playback speed, and I bet it just needs more slack in the system to do that.

That's one more vote for the buffering setting. I'll definitely look into that. Thanks!

 

[miroslav]

I disagree with something "not being a 4-track song" if you use MIDI. Why would the manufacturers of those tape machines add those capabilities if they weren't meant to be used?

OK...but now you're debating the validity of using MIDI.
I'm not against it...that's not my point.

I was simply giving you solutions based on what YOU were saying.
You first mentioned the DAW and the sync stuff...so I responded to that. Then...you talked about some songs wanting to be 4-track songs, and that's why you wanted to stick with a 4-track cassette tape...plus the "nostalgia" thing...which made your goals somewhat confusing to me....because, I dunno...4tracks = 4 tracks to me...and if you tack on 8 MIDI tracks playing VSTi instruments...then that's 12 tracks, IMO.


Again...just trying to find solutions for what you originally asked...I'm not really trying to debate your personal interests or methodology.

Oh...by all means check the frame rate and try the buffer settings as some have suggested. The frame rate matching is crucial...but I would be surprised that increasing the DAW buffer settings will have any positive effect with the sync glitches because increased buffers only add more "time" for the DAW to react to stuff...BUT....that doesn't change how fast the tape deck and the SMPTE/MTC is being sent by the tape deck and read by the DAW, so it might actually have the opposite effect....but I would like to hear about your results.
I would think a smaller buffer would bring the DAW closer to operating in absolute real time...which then becomes even more problematic for the VSTi stuff and any plugs, etc.

If Reaper has a synchronization section where there are lots of options...look for anything talking about sample accuracy and re-sampling on the fly, etc...those things might have some bearing on the glitches if Reaper is having trouble staying in sync with the incoming SMPTE/MTC

 

[famous beagle]

OK...but now you're debating the validity of using MIDI.
I'm not against it...that's not my point.

I was simply giving you solutions based on what YOU were saying.
You first mentioned the DAW and the sync stuff...so I responded to that. Then...you talked about some songs wanting to be 4-track songs, and that's why you wanted to stick with a 4-track cassette tape...plus the "nostalgia" thing...which made your goals somewhat confusing to me....because, I dunno...4tracks = 4 tracks to me...and if you tack on 8 MIDI tracks playing VSTi instruments...then that's 12 tracks, IMO.


Again...just trying to find solutions for what you originally asked...I'm not really trying to debate your personal interests or methodology.

Oh...by all means check the frame rate and try the buffer settings as some have suggested. The frame rate matching is crucial...but I would be surprised that increasing the DAW buffer settings will have any positive effect with the sync glitches because increased buffers only add more "time" for the DAW to react to stuff...BUT....that doesn't change how fast the tape deck and the SMPTE/MTC is being sent by the tape deck and read by the DAW, so it might actually have the opposite effect....but I would like to hear about your results.
I would think a smaller buffer would bring the DAW closer to operating in absolute real time...which then becomes even more problematic for the VSTi stuff and any plugs, etc.

If Reaper has a synchronization section where there are lots of options...look for anything talking about sample accuracy and re-sampling on the fly, etc...those things might have some bearing on the glitches if Reaper is having trouble staying in sync with the incoming SMPTE/MTC

When I said some songs wanted to be "4-track songs," I didn't mean that I wanted them to have four and only four tracks. I just meant that I wanted to record them on my 4-track machine, the process for which may or may note include additional MIDI instruments. I guess I should have been clearer in that.

At any rate, thanks for the other tips. I did see some settings with regards to things like "freewheel" (I think) and others that seemed to be relevant to what you're saying (see attached). However, I couldn't find any description of them in the Reaper manual, and I would just be purely guessing if I were to change something from the default.

 

[jpmorris]

Try setting 'skip/drop frames' and 're-synchronize if drift exceeds' to 0. That should allow the audio stream to drift out of sync rather than trying to force them together, which in the case of VSTs shouldn't be an issue. If you're trying to sync a recording (or the pre-rendered version of the MIDI tracks) it is liable to go astray. But for realtime synthesis allowing it to drift should prevent the glitching.

 

[ashcat_lt]

The manufacturer of this cassette 4 track did not a damn thing to make it "capable" of synching this way except (maybe) to allow you to defeat the NR on one of the tracks. You're really just recording an analog audio signal to a track and then when you play that back through the right stuff, that stuff figures out how to do the sync thing. If you listen to that track as though it was audio, it sounds awesome!

With cassette four track especially you have the fun thing with the bleed, so that if you put the stripe too hot adjacent to a track with a quieter (or more dynamic) track, you'll hear it in the mix, but if the adjacent track is very loud, it can bleed into the sync signal and mess up the timing. I never really had trouble with it, but it is always a consideration.

 

[miroslav]

OK...silly question...but the box [Enable synchronization to timecode] is unchecked (please don't tell me it was that simple ).

Also, all the options in milliseconds are going to have some effect. you can start by tweaking each on alone, and see what effect it has, then go from there.
Does your manual talk about any of these options in detail and their effect?

Try setting 'skip/drop frames' and 're-synchronize if drift exceeds' to 0.

Yeah...I woulds start with these two.

I never really had trouble with it, but it is always a consideration.

Yeah...I never had a problem with the SMPTE track either....but I kept the signal strength in the -3 to 0 VU range, and if I used the adjacent track (which I've done many times) I made sure I didn't hit that track too hard with my audio.
I know with a 4-track cassette tape, the guard bands are very, very small compared to a R2R...but it can work.

 

[famous beagle]

The manufacturer of this cassette 4 track did not a damn thing to make it "capable" of synching this way except (maybe) to allow you to defeat the NR on one of the tracks. You're really just recording an analog audio signal to a track and then when you play that back through the right stuff, that stuff figures out how to do the sync thing. If you listen to that track as though it was audio, it sounds awesome!

With cassette four track especially you have the fun thing with the bleed, so that if you put the stripe too hot adjacent to a track with a quieter (or more dynamic) track, you'll hear it in the mix, but if the adjacent track is very loud, it can bleed into the sync signal and mess up the timing. I never really had trouble with it, but it is always a consideration.

That's exactly what it did (make the DBX separately removable on track 4), and what else did it need to do? Other devices generated/read/converted the time code already, so would they want to reinvent the wheel for this machine? This is especially true considering the fact that I'm sure they were trying to hit a certain price point.

The fact that they address the DBX concern, and that they mention the application of syncing in the manual, means (to me) that they're suggesting this machine can certainly be, and is capable of being, used in this way.

Thanks for the tip on the bleed. I've read a lot about that and have been very careful on the levels so far. I tried first striping at -10dB and again at -6dB and haven't had any bleed issues yet. But, of course, I haven't gotten it to work flawlessly yet either.

 

[famous beagle]

OK...silly question...but the box [Enable synchronization to timecode] is unchecked (please don't tell me it was that simple ).

Also, all the options in milliseconds are going to have some effect. you can start by tweaking each on alone, and see what effect it has, then go from there.
Does your manual talk about any of these options in detail and their effect?

Yeah...I woulds start with these two.

Yeah...I never had a problem with the SMPTE track either....but I kept the signal strength in the -3 to 0 VU range, and if I used the adjacent track (which I've done many times) I made sure I didn't hit that track too hard with my audio.
I know with a 4-track cassette tape, the guard bands are very, very small compared to a R2R...but it can work.

Ha! Yes that was a silly question. I wouldn't think it would chase at all if that box weren't checked. Like I said, it's chasing like a dream; it's just that the audio playback is not perfect.

Unfortunately, no, the menu does not address these things. It totally passes the buck! This is what it says:
Complete the other settings and close the dialog box. You should consult the documentation of your
external device for further information.


What's funny is that, when I first started trying to sync it up, Reaper was chasing, but when the sync tone started on the tape, Reaper would start playing back at around 35 minutes into the project. I saw the "Offset incoming timecode" setting, but then I saw that it was in milliseconds. I thought, "surely not." But yes ... I had to enter "-1,985,000" or something like that in that box (the equivalent of -35 minutes expressed in milliseconds), and then Reaper would start playback near the beginning of the project. Seems as though they could also include minutes and seconds boxes!

---------- Update ----------

Try setting 'skip/drop frames' and 're-synchronize if drift exceeds' to 0. That should allow the audio stream to drift out of sync rather than trying to force them together, which in the case of VSTs shouldn't be an issue. If you're trying to sync a recording (or the pre-rendered version of the MIDI tracks) it is liable to go astray. But for realtime synthesis allowing it to drift should prevent the glitching.

Thanks for the tips!

Lots of good stuff to try out the next time I get a chance!

 

[miroslav]

See...in my DAW, the sync section settings are one thing...that's where I can fine-tune stuff if needed for any sync issues...
...but then AFA the timeline settings for song start position and timeline offset...those are in my project settings and are all in SPMTE code.

Also...you should give the DAW more time then you would think was needed before song start.
Like if you cut it real close, and say....you want the code and the song to start at "0"...the DAW, as fast as it is, will not react quick enough, and then the audio is out before it starts, since the tape takes time to settle in...so it's all playing catch-up, at least initially, and then you get audio glitches.

So have timeline code that starts at say "00:00:10:00"....but have the actual song/audio start at like 00:00:15:00 (those are just examples.
Make sure that your timeline time and your song offset time are not fighting each other.
It's easier for the DAW to "jump" from the 00:00:10:00 to the 00:00:15:00 position where the song begins...than starting both at the exact same time like 00:00:10:00.
Pre-roll is good.

That way....the tape is rolling for a few seconds before the DAW needs to start.

 

[famous beagle]

See...in my DAW, the sync section settings are one thing...that's where I can fine-tune stuff if needed for any sync issues...
...but then AFA the timeline settings for song start position and timeline offset...those are in my project settings and are all in SPMTE code.

Also...you should give the DAW more time then you would think was needed before song start.
Like if you cut it real close, and say....you want the code and the song to start at "0"...the DAW, as fast as it is, will not react quick enough, and then the audio is out before it starts, since the tape takes time to settle in...so it's all playing catch-up, at least initially, and then you get audio glitches.

So have timeline code that starts at say "00:00:10:00"....but have the actual song/audio start at like 00:00:15:00 (those are just examples.
Make sure that your timeline time and your song offset time are not fighting each other.
It's easier for the DAW to "jump" from the 00:00:10:00 to the 00:00:15:00 position where the song begins...than starting both at the exact same time like 00:00:10:00.
Pre-roll is good.

That way....the tape is rolling for a few seconds before the DAW needs to start.

Yes I've made sure to give Reaper plenty of runway. I figured 35 minutes was a little extensive, though )), so I offset it so that it starts about 10 or 15 seconds into the project.