For those of you who long to be a "pro" engineer...

  • Thread starter Thread starter Harvey Gerst
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Don't know if anyone has read the latest installment but I was not far off the mark. This is the presidents project and that's why Willy is so tolerant.

This thing was heading for the wall or death by drug use, glad to see Willy has a backup plan regarding Cotton. When the new guy gets in place things should pick up. I can't see any of the other band members being too upset about this move. Maybe a really pro drummer will kick them back into work mode.
 
Asumming it is a real story.....

It could be politics but that misses still the point.

No matter what path the engineer and the Producer choose there is a question of responability and morals.

A engineer or producer dont have to choose the Nazi path yet they have a moral issue of responsability. And that means not to spend others money as they hired you not to look aside as they blunder down the tube but to put them on the right path.
Sometimes a firm hand is needed and most of the time a lot of psych work to make things run. Not smoothly !!!!! but to acheive RESULTS !!! that is why they are hired that is why they are there.
NOT to have 3-4 weeks go by with out a single song framework being laid down (I'm not even talking about a full song done but a simple framwork - something to build on).
Meanwhile money is being spent by the second and nothing to show for it......
I find it unmoraly and iresposable as I Promise you if it was willy's money or Mixermans money they would show some results by now.
 
Shailat,

If I was paying the studio time(and the band is, it comes out of thier end), and the engineer that I asked for started trying to tell me what to do I would fire him in a heartbeat. The band is the engineers customer in this case, not the other way around, and while he can try to steer them in the right direction, its thier descision in the end. Next is the producer, and last is the engineer.
 
Of course the engineer is last in line yet were I the engineer after 4 weeks of no tracks to show I would start to ask myself what part of this mess am I. Could I have pushed things foward in a better fashion or am I to lay back and dump responsability on the band. Imagine a Hi Tec company hiring a specialst to make the company run and look better. Could he then after the company continues to run things(and run it into the ground) say "Hey you guys ran the show and you are my customer...
In this world ( to my deep sorrow ) nobody wants to hear a "but..but..." They want results. If you cant get them then they will hire somebody who can ! It wont help you claim after the project is scratched or sounds bad...hey the band realy was a mess blah blah blah....Either fix it or dump it. Don't drag it

Of course the most resposability lays in the hand of the producer
as although the band is the "act" here...They are actualy part of a deal which includes the record Company. And as long as they arent a independant band the Producer has to take control. If the band isn't happy they can go back to the record company and demand a change (yeh right....) or take it all on their own backs and drop the contract.

Anybody invovled should have sat down and decided who is leading this project. The band -producer- and record company before recording one note. So far in this story, Every one is pulling in a different direction, I see no leader as the band is resisting the producer, each other, as the engineer looks aside.

An engineer can help steer a session in the right direction by being suportive yet corrective. Although last in line...I feel that being passive isnt doing your job. Did they hire you to be passive? Perhaps...then is this project actually going to tarnish your reputation?...Is the sound the band creates including performance wise not going to be also chalked up (to a degree of course...) to your name ?!?.
When the guitar sound comming from a Vox instead of a different amp not going to be held to the engineers decision?!

Has he sat them down and said something constructive like
"Hey guys you hired me to help and help I want to...things arent going to well and perhaps with a few suggestions we can try this and this and this. Nothing executive nothing instead of the producer (who seems to let the engineer run some things anyhow) but something constructive like let me help you to help yourselfs...thats why you hired me...Instead it seems he is making snearing remarks behind and in front of their backs.....

Yet...so is life and you take the crap with the good, but ! you do what you can to make the crap improve with a little more action and if you still can't help out for whatever reason, and decide to stick around, don't be surprised that some of the crap ends up on your face as well.

On a more personal note....I know of all the stories about how drugs or drinks can loosen up a player and in this buiesness you get all kinds from drunk to down right drugged right out of thier minds but as a engineer or producer, in my sessions I would never offer either one as a solution nor have I found it yet to help loosen up a player/singer. I personaly think drugs do not help you be more creative. In my humble experience I have found it to slow players down and they become less sharp and the session turns into a time waster....Willy's "let the singer drink himself to oblivia.."solution makes me wonder about how good a job does he really do.....
 
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Shailat

I think your trying to compare this to what is moral, ethical and righteous. Kind of a working man's ethics as to what is right and wrong. That's not a bad thing, in fact it sets a measure for the way things should be. However, having lived here in LA LA land for over 15 years and having dealt with many Hollywood, Entertainment and close hanger ons, I'm telling you, these people (the President and Willy to some extent) are all about ego. It's their E and somebody elses GO that makes them tick. The President has his very visible career on the line for this act and wants this at any cost, whatever it takes.

His is a $500K - $1million job per year, depending on which company he works for, and what is right, ethical and moral are essentially irrelevent, he wants it done and that's all he sees. He has a Mazzirati(sp?) , big house in the hills to support and needs to make people make things happen. These types of personalities only look at fame and success regardless of the chaos it may take. Some get lucky, many do not.

I think Willly and Mixerman have a tiger by the tail and I hope they can turn this around.
 
Middleman said:

His is a $500K - $1million job per year, depending on which company he works for, and what is right, ethical and moral are essentially irrelevent, he wants it done and that's all he sees. He has a Mazzirati(sp?) , big house in the hills to support and needs to make people make things happen. These types of personalities only look at fame and success regardless of the chaos it may take. Some get lucky, many do not.
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I think youve pin pointed my problem with this guys.... I'm not making $500k- $1 million on my projects.....uhhh were do I find this LA LA land and can I bring my wife !?!? :)
 
Shailat said:


On a more personal note....I know of all the stories about how drugs or drinks can loosen up a player and in this buiesness you get all kinds from drunk to down right drugged right out of thier minds but as a engineer or producer, in my sessions I would never offer either one as a solution nor have I found it yet to help loosen up a player/singer. I personaly think drugs do not help you be more creative. In my humble experience I have found it to slow players down and they become less sharp and the session turns into a time waster....Willy's "let the singer drink himself to oblivia.."solution makes me wonder about how good a job does he really do.....
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While i agree with some of the sentiment of Shailat's statements, and I certainly wouldn't want to get busted if the police suddenly raided my studio in the midst of some band's drug orgy, there are some times when you do what you have to do...

Two examples from my experience:

1) Male vocalist trying desperately to recapture the sound/vibe of his scratch vocal (which was unusable because of wrong lyrics). After repeated failures, he admitted that the particular rasp he was going for had been accomplished during the scratch vocal by way of smoking a joint right before singing. I sent him out to his car to replicate the experience - he returned in 10 minutes and nailed the track.

2) Experienced female singer/songwriter/piano player who had already recorded a half-dozen LP's and CDs could not seem to relax and get past the "studio-fright". She admitted upon questioning that on her previous projects she kept a supply of Remy Martin to "sip" on to relax her. Next day I had a bottle of Remy for her, and we never had another problem.

These are not fictional cases. Maybe there were other ways, or even better ways to accomplish the same results, but I couldn't come up with any, so I went with what worked. I have no regrets.
 
I have to agree with littledog.

If a band, or artist, is used to performing under certain .....umm ...conditions :D then it can often times be necissary for them to be in the same state of mind to accurately get their "sound" captured, particularly for singers in my opinion. Now while falling down drunk is not good, a little "relaxation" can be allright. In my old band our singer spent the better part of a day (and $500) trying vocal tracks and totally wasn't getting it. Finally he said to the engineer "I'll be honest, usually when I go on stage, or even practice, I take a hit off the bong and grab a beer. The engineer said "head to the backroom". He did and came back, grabbed a beer from the case on the floor that we were drinking (we were done tracking), went back in the iso booth and nailed it. We didn't even bother wasting time for the rest of his days of tracking...he just started the day that way, and watched his beer intake carefully because even he admitted too much was not going to be good. The engineer told those of us in the control room that probably 2/3's of the rock bands he records do the same thing and was almost laughing that our singer tried for so long totally sober and was so sheepish about admitting to him what he needed.

What DID suprise me was that MM partook of the hobbit's leaf while working. I have only met one engineer who smoked while he had to track, the rest said that it messes up their listening and they tend to make more mistakes operating the board when they do. Most of them mentioned that if it was offered at the end of the session there would be a different answer. ;)
 
Fatties cover up flaws in a mix worse than the most forgiving monitors. You realize how detailed and "right there" the vocals are, how enormous the bass is, how intense and brilliant the attack on the snare is and what a genius you are for making it all come togeather.
 
Fatties for mixing are poor idea because of the changes in perception they cause. And they aren't consistant from joint to joint so you never really know what you're hearing.
For playing it's sometimes a different matter. While I agree that many players rapidly deteriorate when smoking or drinking....it's by no means the case for all players. We've all known players that play better when stoned and we've also all known players that kept it under control and were moderate in their use.
And those of us that might be very dead-set against any inebrients might hate it....but it's still the case. So you can't universally say no one should ever burn a fattie.
 
Playing and writing dont use the parts of the brain that mixing requires so they arent as compromised. Mixing requires much more of a sensory critical kind of focus; writing and playing are more mental/creative (which may or may not be enhanced by inebrients).
 
I rolled a fatty once....rolled her in flour so i could find the wet spot....
 
Doesn't seem like MM has been mixing anything yet. since they are only tracking, and that is even a stretch if the writings are accurate, there does not seem to be a problem and, if you recall, MM made much ado about creating an atmosphere. Particularly in the creationi of a rock record, that is probably as important a factor as any other. It follows that a certain level of relaxation can be a positive thing. The circumstances dictate. Alos, the point that if you are used to operating, recording, working, whatever in a certain state of mind, you will certainly not perform your best by changing that all of a sudden, particularly when the pressure is on to produce your best preformance ever. So, critics and pundits relax, one man's deriliction is another man's inspiration. Who are we to say.
 
crawdad said:
I rolled a fatty once....rolled her in flour so i could find the wet spot....
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i find that if they are a REAL porker, that rolling method doesnt work because the wet spot is buried ...you have to lay her on her back, punch her REALLY hard in the stomach, and when the legs fly open, squeeze in.....
 
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