For those of you who long to be a "pro" engineer...

  • Thread starter Thread starter Harvey Gerst
  • Start date Start date
ok check this

Here's a funny story for you guys, while you wait for the next installment of Mixerman's saga..

One of the bands I record often had a bass player who looks and acts EXACTLY like the guy who was in Fargo..NOT steve buscemi's character but the other 'bad guy'..the big guy, who doesn't really talk much, and is kinda just scary..so I was jokin around with the singer/writer/guitarist and mentioned it, and I showed him a few scenes from Fargo on DVD..he and the other band guys were cracking up laughing about how true it was...so the band itself is splitting up, because people are going off to college, graduating, going here/there, etc..so they asked me to goto their last live show, so I did..and the guy is there, and they TOLD HIM about the Fargo thing, because they thought it was hillarious..so I feel like a total dork..but the singer assured me later he thought it was funny and just joking around with me....so if I wind up chopped up in a wood-chipper thing, ya guys know what happened :))
..I bought him 2 rum & cokes at the show and he was happy enough, so :)

...and they also wound up telling him that the bass parts on the 4-song demo they did weren't him, but the singer/guitarist/writer...but he didn't care..it was kinda sad yet funny when he was so impressed with his performance :)
.......which leads me to think, why not just bring in another drummer behind the scenes, and tell everyone that they 'fixed it' up..or something..I'm sure it's been done before, because if the band *I* recorded pulled a switch-a-roo, I'm sure others have..especially considering the guy is dumber than Cotton..

......hell, bring me in there, and I'll play drums on a MIDI keyboard better than the guy probably..so far I've been better than 90% of the drummers I've recorded :P

-Sal
 
I think its getting close to "game over, man!" for this whole project. These guys are making Spinal Tap look pretty professional.

Look at it this way--the producer's already paid and I'm sure he sees what a lemon this band is. What would you rather do--babysit these incompetents or have two months of premium paid vacation? Notice that the producer isn't really taking any control of the band or giving them any guidance.

The only saving grace would be to get everybody back on their own instruments and bring in a pro drummer. My bet, though, is that this project will get dumped within a week unless some real work starts getting churned out.
 
crawdad said:
My bet, though, is that this project will get dumped within a week unless some real work starts getting churned out.
Click to expand...



Youd be surprised.
 
Well, since we didn't learn much in the last installment, other than that Mixerman is a klutz (sorrry), the band is a collection of nutz (at least as seen through mixermans eyes), and a fatty can't always fix everything (though it's always worth a try), I'd like to discuss the 188 or whatever tape edits on the drums. It's not that I think tape edits aren't done anymore, and I've done a few myself. But let's think about this for a minuit.
So, here's this band that, despite it's bidding war arrival at the studio, doesn't seem to be a sure thing. Their level of musicianship is pretty low, and they don't seem to be very endearing. This suggests one or two things to me: One, that they aren't going to sell a hundred million CD's, and/or two, that what they lack in musicianship, they must have in some raw appeal that isn't translating well into the studio. After all, something they did at a showcase must have triggered the bidding war. So, if they're not studio material, then is trying to make them sound like session players a good idea in the first place, or is that killing whatever magic it was that got them there? And if this isn't likely to be a big seller, then who does it serve to run the budget up through the roof by starting down a road of rediculous tape edits on drums. I doubt Cotton is gonna play any better on the other songs, so there would be a lot more tape editing ahead, none of which would sell any more CD's. It will however make it that much more unlikely that the band will ever see a dime of whatever sales they manage. If the band is worth it, cut tape till the cows come home and the engineer ends up in a hospital with an infected finger, but it seemed silly in this case. I think the attempt pretty well proved anyway that you can't create a groove with a razorblade anyway. In a digital editor you can nudge a beat 30 times in a minuit till it hits the pocket (Loop and nudge). And a groove is more important than a tiny loss of sound quality on the drums, again which I maintain isn't gonna make or break the record. Groove will make or break the record.
I hope I'm not boring you all with going back to this. I just think that beyond the entertainment value, the object here is to discuss and disect the making of a record under adverse conditions. While I'm not the successfull producer or engineer here, I think there's a fundimental question that's not being addressed by Willy or Mixerman. Why are these guys (the band) here? What do they have that got them here, and that more than one A&R guy recognized and bid for? And then, how do we (Willy and Mixerman) capture that? How do we need to rethink our recording process to let that come out?
Any thoughts? RD
 
Last edited:
I've been wondering the same thing. All through this little saga I've been wanting to know what the music sounds like. My first instinct tells me that it's lame crap that I would hate, but maybe not. Maybe their songs are just really good and they don't happen to be good players. In that case I'd probably try and just record them how they sound and say to hell with it, but then again how often does a major label release an album that doesn't sound shiny and perfect?
 
hmm

Maybe their contract is designed to just get something recorded, and then the label keeps rights to the songs..and once they're actually recorded, they can take them to another band and do them justice?

..or maybe they look good or somethin, and figure they'll make money from that.

-Sal
 
kennyb2k said:
This story is starting to sound more fictional as it goes on, but that's ok, because it makes for great reading. If the book was out in paperback, I would buy it today- and wouldn't put it down!
Click to expand...
Ditto
 
Double Ditto.

I thought about this yesterday. I wonder if this band, Willy & nephew is not a composite of characters that Mixerman has faced over the years. It really doesn't matter though because it's thouroughly entertaining and a neat insight into the world of a pro for amateurs like myself.
Not wanting to bring up the Chessrock saga from the previous pages, I do agree with Chessrock & C7 that you run into dipshits in all walks of life and all occupations.
It's just too bad all us competent individuals are confined to this little corner of the universe known as Home Recording.com. :D
The world needs more Homereccers.;)

Looking forward to the next installment...
 
JuSumPilgrim said:




Youd be surprised.
Click to expand...

Well, you may be right. I mean, its the same people that paid the 2 mil or whatever to secure this band, and nobody seems to think much of a week of wasted studio time, not to mention engineeer and producer salaries. I guess a couple million is spare change to a record company. What's a few hundred grand more?

if you have any stories, I'd love to hear them. Maybe i'd be even MORE surprised, eh?

As for the possible fictional nature of the posts, if they are, they are still a great read and I'd have to credit Mixerman with being a great storyteller either way. I'm sticking with this to the finish!
 
Am I an idiot when I ask myself why mixerman edits and cuts/pasts with tapes and doesn't use any digital editor? (I can allready predict that is going to be quoted in other posts with the word yes under it:D).

First of all I really don't understand the attitude of this producer Willy btw. He clearly doesn't do any effort to make this project work yet I presume he is known as a talented producer: otherwise a major wouldn't give him the trust to work on a project with that budget, right?

And maybe it isn't very nice, but when I would that soon as Mixerman find out the drummer really isn't able to get a decent drum track on tape, I would very quickly discuss with the producer about getting another drummer on the songs instead of wasting valuable time with various attempts to create half a decent drum track. The money they wasted on that studio time could have been used to pay a good session drummer.

and ok, there is the psychological part of the business: Cotton wouldn't be very excited about another drummer doing his part. But face it: when they really want to go 'big', they can't go on any further with a bad drummer. How painful this may be, someone has the break the news to this guy and even they could search for another drummer as he really is the weak spot in the band. And like Robert says: When they have so much trouble with the drum tracks of their first song, it isn't going to be any better.

Just my thoughts when reading the stuff. Maybe someone can prove me wrong...
 
I am down with Robert D's point totally:-
Is MM 'killing whatever magic it was that got them there?'
Hell yes.
And even, isn't that the very raison d'etre of the whole major thang? Of course. Look at Husker Du (grand parents on the board will know what I'm on about). Look at Elliott Smith(parents on the board ditto). I'm even beginning to wonder about Sparklehorse(ditto).

Sorry I'm not citing much that's really current!

But BrettB, I dunno if I'm with you.

'but face it: when they really want to go big they can't go on any further with a bad drummer.'
Well, u know, what about Moe Tucker? (Great-great grand parents will know- ask 'em!). I mean, I would hate to have heard Neil Peart in VU!
And here we seem to have a weirdo who runs around naked. An asset in any band, I believe.

Bobby.
 
JuSumPilgrim said:
Its interesting how little control you have as an engineer in a major studio working for a major label. ... In my own setup I am constantly suggesting to bands which way to go, adding parts, rewriting parts, writing and playing keys, playing the drums for a piece instead of their drummer, etc. As was said above theres less delineation in smaller projects.
Click to expand...

I'm a freelance writer and editor for, among other things, magazines, and I can tell you, in publishing it's the same way. I have some clients whose parent company is the biggest damn media conglomerate there is ... I won't mention any names but its initials are AOLTW. :D

Anyway, jobs at the media properties I frequent, with the exception of the very senior and esteemed positions, seem quite compartmentalized ... very specialized. And the senior positions are highly political; in a large company like that, there are many senior people to confer with on any matter requiring an opinion, it seems. When I work for small companies, it seems more haphazard (but strangely, not more stressful) and I'm expected to chip in and do more different stuff. Smaller companies are run more on triage than policy.

So, I think that bears a lot of resemblance to the recording biz(which really is just another form of publishing, so why should it be different?). In fact, I'm co-writing a book, which my partner and I have decided to self-publish. The more I research what's entailed, the more I find the process parallels DIYing a music release.

The big difference is, the major mag publishers I've worked with actually put out better quality than the smaller mags I've worked with. THAT is not necessarily the case when talking about recording projects and THOSE budgets, is it?
 
Krise, Bobby! How old are ya? Think how VU would have been if Lou could sing. Yech!

It seems the more $ a project has, the less you see people trying to pretend they don't need a producer, read: making the engineer do it by default if he cares enough.
-kent
 
geekgurl said:


I'm a freelance writer and editor for, among other things, magazines, and I can tell you, in publishing it's the same way. I have some clients whose parent company is the biggest damn media conglomerate there is ... I won't mention any names but its initials are AOLTW. :D

Anyway, jobs at the media properties I frequent, with the exception of the very senior and esteemed positions, seem quite compartmentalized ... very specialized. And the senior positions are highly political; in a large company like that, there are many senior people to confer with on any matter requiring an opinion, it seems. When I work for small companies, it seems more haphazard (but strangely, not more stressful) and I'm expected to chip in and do more different stuff. Smaller companies are run more on triage than policy.

So, I think that bears a lot of resemblance to the recording biz(which really is just another form of publishing, so why should it be different?). In fact, I'm co-writing a book, which my partner and I have decided to self-publish. The more I research what's entailed, the more I find the process parallels DIYing a music release.

The big difference is, the major mag publishers I've worked with actually put out better quality than the smaller mags I've worked with. THAT is not necessarily the case when talking about recording projects and THOSE budgets, is it?
Click to expand...

I have alot of friends here in NY in the mag and publishing world and its much worse than the music business in terms of compartmentalization. Most people are peons and have no impact or say in terms of content whereas on any given record just about everyone can give an opinion and impact the actual endproduct. That has to do with the dif cultures of the music and publishing industries.
The music industry even at its worst and most corporate is more laid back and open than the publishing biz which is populated by lots of failed novelists, english majors and MFAs who are basically useless and run their companies like 7th grade classrooms where all decisions are made by a self referential, narcissistic depmnt head or editor. Not that the music industry is ideal but it beats the publishing world any day of the week.
 
Yes. Just go to Mixerman's board. There's a new sticky for week two.

Hey, Jusumpilgrim! What's the difference between an English major and a failed novelist? Sounds like the setup for a great joke, as long as the punch line isn't your life.
-kent
 
I guess I have to look stupid....but what do you mean "Mixerman's Board"? I definitely want to keep reading but I can't figure out how to get to the later pages.
 
JuSumPilgrim said:
I have alot of friends here in NY in the mag and publishing world and its much worse than the music business in terms of compartmentalization. Most people are peons and have no impact or say in terms ...
Click to expand...

Have you ever been in publishing yourself? Just curious. I was trying to be diplomatic, but, yeah, that's basically what it can be like, sometimes. I wonder if the culture's worse in New York (seems likely, given descriptions from consultants who've come out here and from editors/writers I've talked to who've worked in both places)? From what I can see (clients I've worked for myself) it's worse in book publishing than in magazines. And the bigger the magazine, the more compartmentalized.

The music industry experience I have has pretty much been small-time enough to enable me to do my own thing, though there are politics and whatnot, so I can't give a direct comparison when it gets to the bigger projects. It's nice to know that even peons in the music industry have some say, though.

This one engineer I know, man, some of his recent clients have been real doozies. There's the psychotic singer-songwriter who thinks the rest of his project should be done for free because he's spent so much time and $$ already (it's not that he's unhappy with the work -- the world just owes him something) ... and then there's the guy who insists the engineer address him by his "stage name" when session players are around ...
sometimes I laugh so hard I cry. Kinda like we do with Mixerman's situation.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top