Camel Through The Eye Of A Needle (or How To Slave A 58-OB To A DAW Using Only SMPTE)

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sweetbeats

sweetbeats

Reel deep thoughts...
So here goes...

Many of you know I have been putting together an analog leg to my DAW studio.

The leg features a Tascam 58-OB with 4 dbx 150X units and a Tascam ES-50 synchronizer with the ES-51 autolocator/controller.

The ES-50/51 does not speak MTC, only SMPTE, and my goal is to see if I can functionally get the 58 to Slave to the DAW.

The essential DAW components are an audio-tuned 2.13gHz Core 2 Duo PC with 4Gb PC-6400 RAM, a 128Mb PCI-e graphics adapter, 4 7200rpm SATA II drives presently running in two separate striped RAID arrays. I am using XP Home, and the DAW application is Cubase Studio 4. The audio passes through a Yamaha mLAN setup featuring an 01X, i88x and a Presonus Digimax FS. I have other sundry semi-pro preamps, eq's and dynamics processors, but that's the gist of it.

My idea is, since the ES-50 does not speak MIDI, and Cubase Studio does not generate SMPTE code, to "stripe" a track in Cubase with SMPTE generated by the ES-50, and have the 58 slave to the "code only master" (quoted from the ES-50 manual). The ES-50 seems to have been designed at a time prior to heavy MIDI implementation, so it is clearly geared toward syncing two tape machines, either audio-audio, or audio-video over SMPTE. The manual does however state that you can slave to a "code only" master (i.e. the master sync input is limited to the analog SMPTE code from the master device carried over the balanced XLR cable, and there is nothing connected to the "MASTER I/F" cinch connector). So my hope is that this will work.

So far the process is so-so...

First off, I did verify that the ES-50 is outputting the proper servo frequency (9.6kHz) and control voltage (0 volts) for the 58 according to the ES-50 manual.

I made my own ELCO 38 to 50-pin cinch interface cable (to go from the 58 ELCO "ACCESSORY" connector to the ES-50 cinch "SLAVE I/F" connector). This turned out to be a good challenge for me, but was fun and educational. The biggest hiccup was getting the wiring diagrams...you need them...its not simple. There are some resistors that need to go in there and a capacitor as well. But once I realized I just needed to call Jimmy at Tascam, he sent the diagrams to me and took the time to answer a bunch of questions which helped this neophyte get on the right track. :o Anyway, I cleaned up the diagrams that were faxed to me and have them available if anybody needs them...they will work for users wanting to interface the ES-50 with a 388, 48, 58, MS-16 or ATR60-series deck.

I think the cable is doing what it is supposed to do so far. Nothing has caught on fire :), and I ran the 58 and ES-50 through the "Setup" procedure (which is supposed to "teach" the ES-50 the transport characteristics of the master and slave machines), but it doesn't complete the process...or maybe it is complete, but the setup LED blinks for a bit (which the ES-50 manual says will happen if there is an error) when the deck stops and then the LED goes out...maybe it errors out because there is no machine connected to the MASTER I/F port on the ES-50? Maybe what I'm seeing it do to the 58 is complete but then it can't complete the setup procedure because it is looking for the MASTER machine?

When I press "Setup", the 58 (which, BTW has a reel of tape striped from start to finish with 30frame SMPTE code at -10VU, not drop-frame...is that the right format code? I hope so, because I can't figure out how to change it and the manual is not clear... :p) goes into play mode for about a minute, then the capstan slows down well below 15ips for a bit, then speeds up well above 15ips for a bit, then back down below, and then it goes into FFWD mode until about 8:00 where it stops, "Setup" LED blinks for a couple seconds and then goes out...

[side-note: I am amazed that the repro head can pick up the code from the tape while in FFWD mode with the lifters extended...I mean, the tape is, like 1/16" to 1/8" away from the head and the ES-51 controller, which has the timecode display, is still accurately reading the code...I thought there was something wrong and the ES-51 was reading the code output from the timecode generator, until the transport stopped...and so did the code...I tell you what is wrong though...my stinkin' lifters are sticking again...I though I had that fixed! :mad: The rubber cushion on the solenoid was gooey when I first got the deck, and I dismantled that and put in a new cushion from Tascam, but it must be the linkage...I'll have to pull the dress panel off and look at it again...I do not like tape running on the heads in FFWD or REW mode. :eek::(]

Well anyway, aside from the above, I guess the next step is to "stripe" my SMPTE track in Cubase and see if I can get the two to lock together. From there maybe the functions on the ES-51 will make more sense...the manual is really not very good for folks like me because it is written for somebody that has already worked extensively with this type of equipment in a production environment, and mainly video production at that.

Hope this is a valuable/enjoyable thread...I'll take any advice/pointers I can get, though I'm mostly doing it for your entertainment (everybody loves to read the diabolical escapades of somebody who is really not quite sure what they are doing...:D), as well as for future generations! ;)
 
Okay...

I got the thing to lock...

Lots of weird stuff happened in the process, and I've got more questions than answers at this point, but I *did* get them to lock and hold within a subframe.

I'm having to phase-lock the 58 and the DAW rather than chase at the moment because I can't figure out how to reset the code position (i.e. when I striped the SMPTE track in Cubase, the timecode generator had been going all day) The code on the 58 starts at like 7 minutes, while the DAW starts at something around 15 hours...chase-lock THAT! At first I couldn't figure out why the 58 went into FFWD every time I pressed the Chase button.

The manual for the ES-50/51 is terrible.

Another weird thing I experienced was if the 58 was stopped at a certain position, and I offset that position by, say, 10 seconds or something and then told the 58 to locate to the new position, it was crazy. The tape would shuttle in fast wind for a couple seconds, go into play and then the reels would rock back and forth...this would go on for 10 or 20 seconds just to locate to a timecode position 10 seconds off of the original position. Maybe that's normal? It didn't look good, as impressive as it was. One time it even went PAST the new locate point by about a minute and then did the reel rocking dance all the way back...hmm...maybe when the lifters extend the ES-50 can't hear the code anymore? Hmm...

Another thing is that I'm disappointed that when I stop playback of the master code (in the DAW), the 58 doesn't stop also. The ES-50 lets the 58 keep right on going (of course all the while telling me it lost the master timecode). I guess that makes sense since there are no transport instructions coming from the DAW, but I was *hoping* that, since it should lock to the master code even if it slows down, I was hoping it would lock to the ultimate slow-down...a stop. Maybe in chase-lock mode it will? I've got to figure out how to scrub audio in Cubase.

Anyway, It *is* encouraging that my interface cable seems to be working, at least as far as I can tell...so far...
 
it's generaly easier if the tape is the master... the daw will lock much faster to it than if the tape has to chase the daw...
 
Don't go there with him. :-P
:D:D:D:D

MD, you crack me up!!

dementedchord,

Who knows...I may convert to the "other side" :eek: and make my atr the master, but for now I'm too fascinated with my 58 looking like one of those high-speed data tape machines from yesteryear. :p
 
:D:D:D:D

MD, you crack me up!!

dementedchord,

Who knows...I may convert to the "other side" :eek: and make my atr the master, but for now I'm too fascinated with my 58 looking like one of those high-speed data tape machines from yesteryear. :p

What can I say? I'm a funny guy!

Might be worth giving it a shot though, just to hear what the results will be like. ;-)

-MD
 
It won't work.
Danny, I asked this in my other thread, but if it won't work, how are users doing it then?


I've pretty much figured the ES-50's auto-calibration setup function won't complete unless two atr's are connected (a slave and a master...and I've got a code-only on the master side...manual sez the synchronizer can deal with this but doesn't explain what to do with the calibration procedure...) :(

I did find a spot in the manual which talkes about manual calibration tweaking using the ES-51 remote controller...there are a total of 9 parameters dealing with the transport response...a setting of '1' is to match a fast responding transport, while a setting of '9' is to match a slow responding transport, and the numbers in between naturally are a gradient between the two extremes.

I have NO idea where to set these... :confused: Though the manual does hint that a wider format deck with larger reels would likely display slower response characteristics just due to the physics of it all, and the 58 transport is pretty solid, so I'm going to assume that I'm going to err on setting parameters for a fast responding transport and then check the troubleshooting chart if there are problems.

What an adventure...but I AM learning a lot about timecode and synchronization...the whole concept is really cool. It takes the auto-locate functions of my 424 to a whole new level! :D:D:D I knew it would, but that is my only prior experience to analog locators/cue points. The accuracy is amazing for all the variables that are involved, and my goodness...if you asked me not too long ago if it was possible to sync the atr to the DAW with a running accuracy of 1 subframe I'd have said "no way", but it is happening. :cool:

I've figured out how to reset/manage the timecode position in the generator now, so I will soon be able to start experimenting with how the slaving actually treats audio in a chase-lock scenario vs. the phase-locking of timecode only as done in my testing thus far. That will be the real test.
 
It won't work.

no??? that seems strange to me.... granted this is not really an area of expertice for me.... but doesnt it work if ya stripe one channel with smpte code and feed it back to the daw.... cubase for instance has about 15 pages in there manual dedicated to the idea...
 
Closing this one down...

I'm contributing more on this topic over in this thread.

I thought it would work better to split this topic out, but it is remaining pretty integrated with my Tascam 58-OB Story thread, so I'm redirecting this topic back over there to avoid confusion and duplication.

Thanks! ;)
 
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