Syncing a Tascam 246 to my DAW - audio glitches

  • Thread starter Thread starter famous beagle
  • Start date Start date
Well, I wasn't sure what you were really using...:)...but you should use at least 15 seconds of preroll to guarantee good sync at the song start point.
Generally, it's pretty common for people to use 01:00:00:00 as the tape "zero" point...so with preroll, your SMPTE start time on the tape would be 00:59:45:00 if you wanted the song to start at 01:00:00:00.

I think the main reason is it allows you to RW at points well ahead of the song start without ever going into "negative" SMPTE time.
 
ashcat_lt said:
I've never actually tried this in Reaper and frankly never even looked into it, but...

1) Make absolutely fuck sure that Reaper is set to the exact same frame rate as what you've striped. If one or the other is dropping frames when the other isn't, it can't help but screw everything up

B) Have you tried increasing your interface's buffer settings? Reaper might just need a little more to time to make all the calculations to do what you want. Idk why this wasn't the first reply on this thread, but whatevs.

III) Somebody mentioned CLASP, and that's actually my first suggestion here. IF (and I haven't researched your particular machine) you can monitor off the playback heads while recording, then you can just record "through" the cassette to an audio track in Reaper. It will have all of the nasty bullshit that you think you want from the cassette, and be as in synch as possible without any of the dicking around. It'll save you some cassettes cause you can rewind and record over at least a few times. You've got enough outputs from the interface that if you really also want the hassle and noise of mixing in analog, you can run back out and have at it.
Click to expand...

Ding ding! It seems we have a winner. This idea started to really make the most sense to me, because it would always start off OK for a bit, and the glitches wouldn't show up until maybe 10 or 15 seconds in. So it seemed as though it was happening as things were drifting out of sync.

With regard to the buffer settings, I wasn't sure exactly what y'all were asking. In the Preferences tab of Reaper, the buffer settings are at the default, which is 1200ms (I didn't change them). In the Audio device tab, under ASIO configuration, my Tascam US-1800 interface is set to the lowest latency.

When I looked at Reaper's frame settings, it said 30fps. It was hard for me to understand what the PPS-1 manual said with regards to its frame rate. Then, while looking in the Reaper manual, I learned that it could generate SMPTE timecode as well. So I figured the one way to be sure that it's going to be striped at the same rate is to have Reaper generate the time code itself.

I did that, and everything seems to be working perfectly now. It played a drum track flawlessly all the way through a 3 1/2 minute song. I haven't tried adding a bunch more MIDI tracks as well, but it seems that, now that the sync is working, I could just render all the MIDI tracks if it's too taxing for the system.

Also, by having Reaper generate the code for me, I was able to specify the start time, and that worked perfectly as well. I told it to start at 30 seconds, and it did.

So thanks much for all the help y'all! :)
 
Well that's good.

I'm just curious...how did you originally generate the SMPTE for the tape stripe...and what was it set to at that time...???
 
man-bot said:
I'm using a PPS-1 version 3 as well!
Click to expand...

Oh ok, well then I can tell you exactly what I did. I'm using version 4.78 of Reaper, so yours may be slightly different depending on your version and/or if you have a different theme. If you have trouble finding something, let me know.

First to stripe the tape:
1) Open a new Reaper project and select Insert (menu) -> SMPTE LTC/MTC Timecode Generator (it may also only say "Timecode Generator")
2) Right click on the item in the track window and select "Source properties."
3) Confirm that the Frame rate is 30.00 and that "Send audio (LTC)" is checked.
4) Set the start time to 00:00:30:00 (30 seconds) for now. This means that, when Reaper first sees the beginning of the timecode on the tape, it will start chasing at 30 seconds into the project.
5) Close the properties window and increase (drag out) the media item for as long as you want to stripe the tape. I did a whole side of a 60 minute cassette on my Tascam 246. It runs at 2x speed, so this meant 15 minutes. But if you want to only stripe enough for one song, you can do that.
6) Send the signal from your interface to track 16 of your tape machine.
7) Make sure that you don't have any EQ or noise reduction on the tape track and, after a good 15 or 30 seconds of leader time, record the time code on track 16 with a level of about -3dB.
8) After you're done recording the timecode, rewind the tape to the beginning.

Slaving - hookup:
1. Run a cable from the output of track 16 to the "From Tape" jack on the PPS-1.
2. Plug in the PPS-1
3. Set the right switch on the PPS-1 to "SMPTE" and the left switch to "MTC"
4. Run a MIDI cable from the MIDI OUT of the PPS-1 to MIDI IN on your interface.

Slaving - execution:
1. Open a Reaper project and add a track with audio or a VSTi with MIDI events, starting a bit after 30 seconds in. Be sure it's something that lasts several minutes so you can verify it's staying in sync for the long haul. (I just used a three minute drum track in EZ drummer.)
2. Right click on the PLAY button in Reaper. This will bring up the "External Timecode Synchronization" window.
3. First, check the box that says "Enable synchronization to timecode."
4. Then, for "Use input:" make sure you have your interface's MIDI jack selected (the one you used to connect to the MIDI OUT of the PPS-1). You can leave all of the other settings at their default for now.
5. When you close the window, it should say "MTC SYNC" in the transport bar somewhere (mine says it right below "Stopped"), and there will probably be an indication on the PLAY button as well, such as a lock icon or the word "sync." This lets you know you're in the right mode.
6. Press the space bar (or the PLAY button). You should see "Waiting for TC" in the transport bar (mine replaces the word "Stopped" with it).
7. The moment of truth! Press play on your tape machine, and when the timecode starts on your tape, Reaper should spring into action and start playing!
8. If it worked, then rewind the tape and try recording something (just a direct guitar or whatever) in time, being very deliberate with quarter notes or something, on track 1 (or whatever) of the MS-16, for the duration of the Reaper track.
9. Rewind the tape and listen to make sure the Reaper track stays in time with your newly recorded tape track.

I hope this helps. Let me know! Good luck!
 
miroslav said:
Well that's good.

I'm just curious...how did you originally generate the SMPTE for the tape stripe...and what was it set to at that time...???
Click to expand...

I originally striped the tape with the JL Cooper box (the PPS-1) because I didn't realize that Reaper could do it. (I guess I should have guessed, since the DAW has replaced every other piece of outboard gear, but for some reason I didn't.) The PPS-1 doesn't allow you to select different frame rates. In the manual, it says (for SMPTE mode) "In this function, only 30 non-drop format is used, starting at 00:30:00:00." I was a little confused as to what "30 non-drop" meant (if it was the same as the "30" that Reaper said), so that's why I just decided to stripe with Reaper when I saw it could do it.
 
famous beagle said:
I originally striped the tape with the JL Cooper box (the PPS-1) because I didn't realize that Reaper could do it. (I guess I should have guessed, since the DAW has replaced every other piece of outboard gear, but for some reason I didn't.) The PPS-1 doesn't allow you to select different frame rates. In the manual, it says (for SMPTE mode) "In this function, only 30 non-drop format is used, starting at 00:30:00:00." I was a little confused as to what "30 non-drop" meant (if it was the same as the "30" that Reaper said), so that's why I just decided to stripe with Reaper when I saw it could do it.
Click to expand...

They are both the same frame rate...30fps ND is most common with audio-only people because it's exactly 30 frames/sec which lines up perfectly with standard clock time...as it divides evenly into the 60 second minute, and 60 minute hour.
Not sure why that would have caused issues...unless the Cooper box didn't generate a clean code, which is possible if its an older unit.

I use to use 30 fps for a long time...but switched to 29.97 drop frame mainly because that is the video standard SMPTE frame rate...and because I also use 48k Hz sampling rate (which is also the video sampling rate standard)...and also because I use NTSC video blackburst as my absolute time reference driving my digital clock, which drives my MicroLynx synchronizer, and also sends Word Clock to my converters...etc.

That way...it's all compatible now and down the road if any of the audio ends up getting used with video...and it allows tape and DAW systems to lock sync down to the finest resolution without a glitch.

If you are only going to work with audio...the 30 fps is the easiest to follow, asince the 29.97 drop frame as its name implies, drops frames at certain intervals...which ain't no big deal, but it sometimes makes you go "Huh?" when you look at the time display. :D
30 fps always looks just like the clock on the wall.

If you want to delve deeper...this is a nice little SMPTE primer written by the TimeLine Microlynx folks, who were the major synchronizer manufacturers back in the day when all the studios and video post houses were locking tape to video. Though they have been out of business since for a good 10-15 years now.
I've got 4-5 of their sync boxes to cover my use now and into the future...but so far, my one box has been working fine for a few years now...so I probably won't have a problem for as long as use tape and DAW.

http://www.technicalaudio.com/pdf/TimeLine/Timeline_SMPTE_Timecode_Tutor.pdf
 
miroslav said:
If you want to delve deeper...this is nice little SMPTE primer written by the TimeLine Microlynx folks, who were the major synchronizer manufacturers back in the day when all the studios and video post houses were locking tape to video. Though they have been out of business since for a good 10-15 years now.
I've got 4-5 of their sync boxes to cover my use now and into the future...but so far, my one box has been working fine for a few years now...so I probably won't have a problem for as long as use tape and DAW.

http://www.technicalaudio.com/pdf/TimeLine/Timeline_SMPTE_Timecode_Tutor.pdf
Click to expand...

Cool, thanks for the share! :)
 
I had a couple of typos in the above post.
Made some edits...nothing major.

Oh...SMPTE gave me a headache when I first tried to understand it back in the day...all the frame rates and their uses, and the dropped frames...etc, when I was working in TV production and video editing for a couple of years...
.......but if you don't deal with video, it's pretty straightforward.
 
It's been a while so I may be way off on this but...

TV in the US used to be 30 frames per second, with two fields per frame so that the field rate matched the frequency of the power. To fit in the color information a bit of bandwidth was gained by reducing the frame rate. There's no difference in frame rate between drop and non drop, it's how the frames are numbered. It's when you're dealing with timecode that numbering makes a big difference in how things work. When I have the choice I tend to use 29.97 drop frame since it seems to be the most common in the US.
 
Glad you got it going. That might not have occurred to me since I always run off 25fps. That's good in another way because it means that Reaper can sync smoothly to timecode unless something is way out of whack as was the case here.
 
famous beagle said:
Oh ok, well then I can tell you exactly what I did. I'm using version 4.78 of Reaper, so yours may be slightly different depending on your version and/or if you have a different theme. If you have trouble finding something, let me know.

First to stripe the tape:
1) Open a new Reaper project and select Insert (menu) -> SMPTE LTC/MTC Timecode Generator (it may also only say "Timecode Generator")
2) Right click on the item in the track window and select "Source properties."
3) Confirm that the Frame rate is 30.00 and that "Send audio (LTC)" is checked.
4) Set the start time to 00:00:30:00 (30 seconds) for now. This means that, when Reaper first sees the beginning of the timecode on the tape, it will start chasing at 30 seconds into the project.
5) Close the properties window and increase (drag out) the media item for as long as you want to stripe the tape. I did a whole side of a 60 minute cassette on my Tascam 246. It runs at 2x speed, so this meant 15 minutes. But if you want to only stripe enough for one song, you can do that.
6) Send the signal from your interface to track 16 of your tape machine.
7) Make sure that you don't have any EQ or noise reduction on the tape track and, after a good 15 or 30 seconds of leader time, record the time code on track 16 with a level of about -3dB.
8) After you're done recording the timecode, rewind the tape to the beginning.

Slaving - hookup:
1. Run a cable from the output of track 16 to the "From Tape" jack on the PPS-1.
2. Plug in the PPS-1
3. Set the right switch on the PPS-1 to "SMPTE" and the left switch to "MTC"
4. Run a MIDI cable from the MIDI OUT of the PPS-1 to MIDI IN on your interface.

Slaving - execution:
1. Open a Reaper project and add a track with audio or a VSTi with MIDI events, starting a bit after 30 seconds in. Be sure it's something that lasts several minutes so you can verify it's staying in sync for the long haul. (I just used a three minute drum track in EZ drummer.)
2. Right click on the PLAY button in Reaper. This will bring up the "External Timecode Synchronization" window.
3. First, check the box that says "Enable synchronization to timecode."
4. Then, for "Use input:" make sure you have your interface's MIDI jack selected (the one you used to connect to the MIDI OUT of the PPS-1). You can leave all of the other settings at their default for now.
5. When you close the window, it should say "MTC SYNC" in the transport bar somewhere (mine says it right below "Stopped"), and there will probably be an indication on the PLAY button as well, such as a lock icon or the word "sync." This lets you know you're in the right mode.
6. Press the space bar (or the PLAY button). You should see "Waiting for TC" in the transport bar (mine replaces the word "Stopped" with it).
7. The moment of truth! Press play on your tape machine, and when the timecode starts on your tape, Reaper should spring into action and start playing!
8. If it worked, then rewind the tape and try recording something (just a direct guitar or whatever) in time, being very deliberate with quarter notes or something, on track 1 (or whatever) of the MS-16, for the duration of the Reaper track.
9. Rewind the tape and listen to make sure the Reaper track stays in time with your newly recorded tape track.

I hope this helps. Let me know! Good luck!
Click to expand...

Wow! Awesome... will give this a shot soon and report back. I was silly and was striping from the PPS-1 with little luck... very excited about this!
 
bouldersoundguy said:
It's been a while so I may be way off on this but...

TV in the US used to be 30 frames per second, with two fields per frame so that the field rate matched the frequency of the power. To fit in the color information a bit of bandwidth was gained by reducing the frame rate. There's no difference in frame rate between drop and non drop, it's how the frames are numbered. It's when you're dealing with timecode that numbering makes a big difference in how things work. When I have the choice I tend to use 29.97 drop frame since it seems to be the most common in the US.
Click to expand...

Right...with Drop frame...the read out skips at set intervals, so you don't see the steady numbers like you would with 30 fps.

AFIK...30 was used for B&W television...and the 29.97 drop frame was needed so the timing of the color TV signal was compatible with older B&W TV sets. There are very details technical explanations of all that out there...but I don't much care, I just know it works. and it's what everyone else is using for sync. :D
 
man-bot said:
Wow! Awesome... will give this a shot soon and report back. I was silly and was striping from the PPS-1 with little luck... very excited about this!
Click to expand...

That's what I did first too. I didn't even realize that Reaper could generate time code; that's how out of the loop I was! :)

Let me know how it goes.

Just FYI, I had an instance of dropout (I'm guessing) with the code at one spot on the tape for a second or so, which threw made it stop chasing for a few seconds before it got back on. I verified that it was tape related because I played it several times and it always happened at the same exact spot on the tape counter. This was about 30 seconds into the tape or so.

Since I had striped the whole tape, I simply moved all my MIDI tracks a good bit so they started well after that dropout, and then it played flawlessly through the whole song. I haven't tried letting it chase through the whole rest of the tape (the other 10 minutes or so), so I'm not sure if there are other dropouts on it or not.

As an experiment, I tried the FSK mode on another tape, which is explained on pages 3-8 of the PPS-1 manual. That worked like a charm as well. I think I started recording the tone at about 1 minute in on the tape and let it chase for about 5 minutes, and it was flawless. So I think I might end up going that route from now on. If you want to try that and need help on it, let me know. It took me a little figuring out to do it, but once I figured it out, it worked the very first time.
 
Hey Beag..... I was playing with this today a little bit. I saw on reaper how you could make the track and all. I don't have a sync box though.... I can't wrap my head around what the sync box does? In this day of magic do it all apps, do you need one?
 
bachelorb said:
Hey Beag..... I was playing with this today a little bit. I saw on reaper how you could make the track and all. I don't have a sync box though.... I can't wrap my head around what the sync box does? In this day of magic do it all apps, do you need one?
Click to expand...

Ummmm .... I don't know. I think so though. One of the other guys would know more than I.
 
bachelorb said:
Hey Beag..... I was playing with this today a little bit. I saw on reaper how you could make the track and all. I don't have a sync box though.... I can't wrap my head around what the sync box does? In this day of magic do it all apps, do you need one?
Click to expand...

Depends what kind of box, and what you're trying to do.

I do a lot of MIDI work. Pretty much all of my songs are composed using a MIDI sequencer. When it's done, I want to record the MIDI sequences onto tape. In many cases I'm using a Minimoog or something which is monophonic, so I want to be able to overdub multiple layers of the same instrument. That means it can't all be done in a single pass.
The naive way to do this is to hit record on the tape deck, hit play on the sequencer, and try to get them to match up.
But even with a click track there will be a lot of trial and error, and the tape deck never quite runs at the same speed each time so it will drift out of sync even if the timing was perfect at the start of the song.

So. What you do instead, is you record a timecode track on the tape deck. This is a digital timing signal converted into audio, much like how computer games for the C64/Timex/Spectrum etc were sold on cassette tape in the 1980s. Or like that wailing sound a Modem produces. By convention, the timecode track usually goes on the last track of the tape deck - track 4, track 8, track 16, track 24 etc.
A MIDI sync unit (like Beagle has) will generate the timing signal so it can be recorded onto tape. It can also decode it afterwards. What a sync box usually does is it converts timing signal off tape into MIDI Time Code, so you'd have a 5-pin DIN cable coming out of the sync box, and going into the MIDI interface on the computer.

The sequencer software (or DAW) on the computer would then use that to control playback, jumping to the start of the song (or the middle, if the tape starts halfway though). It will also speed up and slow down the computer's playback slightly in time with the signal coming off tape.

Some modern DAW software - but not all - has the ability to generate and decode the timing signal purely in software. This has the advantage that you don't need a sync box since it's being emulated in software. It has the disadvantage in that it will take more CPU power to decode the timecode than it would to process MIDI signals coming in via the MIDI interface. It will also cost you an input channel on the audio interface since that will be needed for processing the timecode signal.

But there is another kind of sync box, a more complex one that can control the tape deck itself.
With these, you can have two tape decks, and get them to play back together in perfect time. Similarly, in the first example, we had the computer chasing the tape. With the right kind of sync box, we can make the tape deck follow the computer. However, the sync box has to be able to interface with the tape deck's (usually proprietary) interface. If it has one. As a rule only the later tape decks had this capability, usually the microprocessor-controlled ones.
Often the deck manufacturer sold their own sync boxes, e.g. TASCAM's ATS-500, and the MTS-1000 Midiiizer. Fostex had the MTC-1, I think for the R8, plus a couple of others following their weird numbering convention. There were third-party ones as well, TimeLine made the Lynx, Lynx II and MicroLynx which could control a variety of tape machines given the right custom cable.
And that is something you cannot emulate in software - if only because you need a physical hardware interface to make it work.
 
jpmorris said:
Some modern DAW software - but not all - has the ability to generate and decode the timing signal purely in software.
Click to expand...

Yeah....most DAWs actually read MTC...so the sync boxes do the converting for you, from SMPTE to MTC and MTC to SMPTE even though they are displaying SMPTE time on the screen.

To go direct from tape SMPTE track into the DAW is only in the more expensive DAW apps.
Like I use Samplitude ProX which does the SMPTE/MTC thing...but their higher-end DAW, Sequoia can read SMPTE...but it's like $2k-$3k.
Not sure which less expensive apps can read SMPTE directly...?
 
I'd be willing to bet Sony (soon to be Magix) Vegas reads SMPTE directly.
 
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