Gtoboy
Well-known member
Like the height
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
DAY 31
Yeah...it's a pretty good height. With the collar ties that they installed this morning, the floor to ceiling height tops out at about 12.6'...and I think that's what it will be including the sub-floor and hardwood floor that will go in...at least I think that's how my contractor measured it for me.
It's a pretty nice height...and I think will make a big difference for room sound and acoustic treatment compared to a typical 8' flat ceiling...plus my back wall is 10'...while the front is 8'...so it opens both back and up toward the rear of my planned mix position.
There will be 4 more bigger collar ties equally spaced, right under the ones shown below...but those will be finished and boxed off. That way, the drywall will cover all the ties you see in the pic below...but the four additional will be below the drywall to create a decorative beam look, looking like they are just coming our of the drywall at the ends.
Going back to the original discussion, I was initially looking for a true cathedral peak in the ceiling...but that would have required a more involved structural approach, since you wouldn't be able have collar ties that create structural strength for the roof, and instead of the single 14" ridge beam, it would have been either a couple of beams and/or a much bigger one, like 18"...which would have again created a lowering of the ceiling height and a need to some degree.
Ideally, a steel I-beam would give you the best option for a true cathedral...but we weren't going to get THAT involved with this project!
The slight vault actually makes it easy for running some of the lighting and possibly some duct work (we still haven't gotten to that conversation).
Yeah...it's a pretty good height. With the collar ties that they installed this morning, the floor to ceiling height tops out at about 12.6'...and I think that's what it will be including the sub-floor and hardwood floor that will go in...at least I think that's how my contractor measured it for me.
It's a pretty nice height...and I think will make a big difference for room sound and acoustic treatment compared to a typical 8' flat ceiling...plus my back wall is 10'...while the front is 8'...so it opens both back and up toward the rear of my planned mix position.
There will be 4 more bigger collar ties equally spaced, right under the ones shown below...but those will be finished and boxed off. That way, the drywall will cover all the ties you see in the pic below...but the four additional will be below the drywall to create a decorative beam look, looking like they are just coming our of the drywall at the ends.
Going back to the original discussion, I was initially looking for a true cathedral peak in the ceiling...but that would have required a more involved structural approach, since you wouldn't be able have collar ties that create structural strength for the roof, and instead of the single 14" ridge beam, it would have been either a couple of beams and/or a much bigger one, like 18"...which would have again created a lowering of the ceiling height and a need to some degree.
Ideally, a steel I-beam would give you the best option for a true cathedral...but we weren't going to get THAT involved with this project!
The slight vault actually makes it easy for running some of the lighting and possibly some duct work (we still haven't gotten to that conversation).
Last edited:
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
DAY 34
Not much happened the last couple of days because of Thanksgiving, but they came on Saturday and got half the roof sealed with plywood and also full ice shield on the whole roof (not just the bottom 6' as per code)...and they got the lower portion of the end wall done. Inside they added 4 additional, longer collar ties that were doubled up, and will everntually get boxed off with some finish treatment to create a "beam" look, since they will remain exposed below the ceiling.
I could have gone without those 4 "beams", but since they are also structural and not just decorative...to go without them I would have needed lower/longer collar ties on all the rafters, and then a much wider vaulted ceiling look.
As it is now, it will be more of a small vault/chase at the top...and I really do like having the four beams exposed across the ceiling space. For a pure cathedral peaked ceiling, it would have required a massive ridge beam, possible even some type of I-beam...and it wasn't that important to have that peaked ceiling look to me. With the small vault, electrical can be run up there for some lights and a couple of ceiling fans.
DAY 35
Today and into Monday we have some snow....so no work until probably until Tue/Wed.
I'm sure they are just as eager to get the roof done and the walls all sealed, since we will be having more and more of these snow days...and it's a bitch having to first clean off the snow on the jobsite before proceeding. I was told they expect to have the full roof with asphalt shingles done by the end of next week...and after this snow storm, we have 6 days of dry, sunny weather predicted...so it looks like it will get done.
Not much happened the last couple of days because of Thanksgiving, but they came on Saturday and got half the roof sealed with plywood and also full ice shield on the whole roof (not just the bottom 6' as per code)...and they got the lower portion of the end wall done. Inside they added 4 additional, longer collar ties that were doubled up, and will everntually get boxed off with some finish treatment to create a "beam" look, since they will remain exposed below the ceiling.
I could have gone without those 4 "beams", but since they are also structural and not just decorative...to go without them I would have needed lower/longer collar ties on all the rafters, and then a much wider vaulted ceiling look.
As it is now, it will be more of a small vault/chase at the top...and I really do like having the four beams exposed across the ceiling space. For a pure cathedral peaked ceiling, it would have required a massive ridge beam, possible even some type of I-beam...and it wasn't that important to have that peaked ceiling look to me. With the small vault, electrical can be run up there for some lights and a couple of ceiling fans.
DAY 35
Today and into Monday we have some snow....so no work until probably until Tue/Wed.
I'm sure they are just as eager to get the roof done and the walls all sealed, since we will be having more and more of these snow days...and it's a bitch having to first clean off the snow on the jobsite before proceeding. I was told they expect to have the full roof with asphalt shingles done by the end of next week...and after this snow storm, we have 6 days of dry, sunny weather predicted...so it looks like it will get done.
bluesfordan
Member
how did the snowstorm end up treating you?
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
For the first storm of the season...it was pretty shitty. First came some snow and then sleet and freezing rain....then more snow on top of that...then it let up in the evening, but later another couple of inches of fluff. About 8"+. I spent 5 hours shoveling snow as part of my usual chore, but then also to clear up around the jobsite and inside, since half the roof is still not on.
The contractor showed up early this morning and did some more cleaning of the stuff that fell overnight...so I expect to see them working tomorrow. There's still snow up on the half of roof they finished, and on top of all the rafter edges...but it's supposed to be sunny and up in the high 30s...so that will help. They will need to clear the sealed half of the roof so they can finish it off with the asphalt shingles.
It looks like by the end of the week and early next week we're going to get a couple of days of near 50 degrees...but also some rain...which will at least get rid of most of the snow that fell.
It was a tough storm to start the season off with...but out west they got hammered. The thing that sucks up here in the NE...is we get that mixed bag. I would rather deal with 1' of snow than 4" of ice & snow mixed.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
DAY 38
Nothing much happened during the Sun/Mon snow storm...and yesterday we just did some snow removal at the jobsite to get it ready for work again.
Today the other have of the roof got plywood, and also there was some more blocking added to the framing.
Tomorrow they plan to put down the ice shield on the rest of the roof...and I was told that the asphalt shingles are slated for delivery this Saturday, and the plan is to do on half of the roof on Saturday and the rest on Sunday...since the weather will be good both days. I will be very happy to see the roof completely done.
Besides putting down the rest of the ice-shield, they plan to put up more of the wall sheeting tomorrow and Friday, and I think my windows will also be here, so they might get hung also.
Nothing much happened during the Sun/Mon snow storm...and yesterday we just did some snow removal at the jobsite to get it ready for work again.
Today the other have of the roof got plywood, and also there was some more blocking added to the framing.
Tomorrow they plan to put down the ice shield on the rest of the roof...and I was told that the asphalt shingles are slated for delivery this Saturday, and the plan is to do on half of the roof on Saturday and the rest on Sunday...since the weather will be good both days. I will be very happy to see the roof completely done.
Besides putting down the rest of the ice-shield, they plan to put up more of the wall sheeting tomorrow and Friday, and I think my windows will also be here, so they might get hung also.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
DAY 39
Not a major work day...it was kinda cold and there were even some snow showers in the afternoon... but for the snow came, they managed to get the ice shield on the rest of the roof, and the asphalt shingles also showed up (better today then Saturday).
Now it looks pretty solid that the roof will be completely shingled by Sunday...they plan to put in full days both Sat & Sun.
The window framing was also done today, and the windows have arrived...but they won't go in until the rest of the wall sheeting is on.
Not really sure what's in store for tomorrow...I think they will be doing the rafters & sheeting for the bathroom roof.
Today I also reconsidered my plans for both the electric lines that I need to run from my balanced power distro box...and also the audio lines.
I was going to go under the floor...and/or even use typical stage boxes for the audio, and not bother running any permanent audio lines...but I think I'm going to go ahead and just run both my audio power distro, and the audio lines all in the walls instead of the floor.
I'm even considering running the longest two cables up across the "ceiling", using two of the 4 large beams that run between the two roof sides. I can hid the cable in the beams before they are finished/boxed off.
I've got three pieces of brand new 48-channel Mogami cable...44', 50' and 59'...so it seemed dumb to go buying snake boxes when I have all this top-shelf audio cable. It will be a bit more work running it through the walls, but it will be less expensive than buying a couple of 12-channel snakes w/stage boxes...plus with the 48-channel cable, I will have more than enough channels to have a bunch of spares for the future or if something goes bad.
I just have to buy some XLR wall plates...but I they are not expensive. I can get stainless steel wall plates w/ 8 XLR connectors for like $24 each, and I don't think I need more than 4 of them...and then at the patchbay end, I may opt to go with DB25 connectors, rather than have 4 more XLR wall plates.
I'm still sorting that out...but I think that's the direction I'm going in.
With my audio power distro, I found the perfect solution that I was looking for, thanks to Furman. They have exactly the type of male AC receptacles that will allow me to plug into my balanced power box, and distribute the power via permanent installed extension lines...and these are all UL approved and meet codes and all that...so it will be a clean, approved install. They also have some additional filtering to further clean up the AC.
These are the Furman/Panamax wall receptacles: Max-In-Wall Power & Signal Bay, 15A Code Compliant Extension System | Panamax
Not a major work day...it was kinda cold and there were even some snow showers in the afternoon... but for the snow came, they managed to get the ice shield on the rest of the roof, and the asphalt shingles also showed up (better today then Saturday).
Now it looks pretty solid that the roof will be completely shingled by Sunday...they plan to put in full days both Sat & Sun.
The window framing was also done today, and the windows have arrived...but they won't go in until the rest of the wall sheeting is on.
Not really sure what's in store for tomorrow...I think they will be doing the rafters & sheeting for the bathroom roof.
Today I also reconsidered my plans for both the electric lines that I need to run from my balanced power distro box...and also the audio lines.
I was going to go under the floor...and/or even use typical stage boxes for the audio, and not bother running any permanent audio lines...but I think I'm going to go ahead and just run both my audio power distro, and the audio lines all in the walls instead of the floor.
I'm even considering running the longest two cables up across the "ceiling", using two of the 4 large beams that run between the two roof sides. I can hid the cable in the beams before they are finished/boxed off.
I've got three pieces of brand new 48-channel Mogami cable...44', 50' and 59'...so it seemed dumb to go buying snake boxes when I have all this top-shelf audio cable. It will be a bit more work running it through the walls, but it will be less expensive than buying a couple of 12-channel snakes w/stage boxes...plus with the 48-channel cable, I will have more than enough channels to have a bunch of spares for the future or if something goes bad.
I just have to buy some XLR wall plates...but I they are not expensive. I can get stainless steel wall plates w/ 8 XLR connectors for like $24 each, and I don't think I need more than 4 of them...and then at the patchbay end, I may opt to go with DB25 connectors, rather than have 4 more XLR wall plates.
I'm still sorting that out...but I think that's the direction I'm going in.
With my audio power distro, I found the perfect solution that I was looking for, thanks to Furman. They have exactly the type of male AC receptacles that will allow me to plug into my balanced power box, and distribute the power via permanent installed extension lines...and these are all UL approved and meet codes and all that...so it will be a clean, approved install. They also have some additional filtering to further clean up the AC.
These are the Furman/Panamax wall receptacles: Max-In-Wall Power & Signal Bay, 15A Code Compliant Extension System | Panamax
S
sasquatch
Member
Remember that the electrical code is for life safety and does not guarantee hum/buzz free installations.
Would think since the console is in the same room go direct eliminating extra connectors and reduce loop area.
Console-centric.
Just a thought.
Note on loop area.
https://www.jhbrandt.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Grounding-Wiring-Zero-Loop-Area.pdf
G
Would think since the console is in the same room go direct eliminating extra connectors and reduce loop area.
Console-centric.
Just a thought.
Note on loop area.
https://www.jhbrandt.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Grounding-Wiring-Zero-Loop-Area.pdf
G
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Maybe I wasn't clear earlier...all my gear gets powered from a single balanced power box...and not the house wall outlets.
IOW...the box is plugged into a dedicated 20A outlet...and then it distributes power to all my gear...so everything is grounded back at the box.
TBH...the article you linked to is pretty confusing to follow with all that "Zero Loop" stuff and the diagrams. In a nutshell, what you want is a "star grounded" system, where all gear is grounded back to a single point...my balanced power distribution box. The whole purpose of the balance power box is that it eliminates those voltage differences and creates clean power.
Also...I totally don't understand his logic of running the power lines 100% parallel and in such close proximity to his audio lines...???...at least that's how it appears in the drawing and the images of the conduit installation. That was always considered a bad idea and if you must run parallel, you need to keep a good 2' distance between them. I have always kept my audio lines away from power lines when I had to run them parallel, with only the occasional crossing points where they need to meet at the gear. That's something I learned a long time ago...so his "keep them close" thing doesn't follow that at all.
He says that you "collapse the loop" by simply bringing audio lines as close as possible to electric lines...Huh???
I feel like there's a whole page of detailed info that is missing in that explanation, and it really makes little sense to me.
If anyone can interpret what he is actually talking about...please post up...but for now, I'm following my star grounding and keeping the audio and power lines well apart.
This will be my third, more involved, studio wiring setup...and I've always followed the star grounding system to the best of my ability...and actually, this will be probably the most cleanest yet, since I am able to run my own distribution lines, rather than having to make do with house wiring.
I've not ever had any real ground loop issues on the whole. Sometimes with a guitar amp and pedal, you get something weird, but it's usually fixable at the source...otherwise, my console, rack gear, and recording equipment have always run dead quiet.
Sometimes it's down to an individual piece of gear and how it was wired internally with the signal ground and chassis ground...but that too was an individual case that could be fixed.
With this new studio, I will be rewiring at least 60% of my patchbays with new cable...so there is where extra attention is needed, since I'm going to be re-soldering a lot of connection points.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Since we're talking about the electric...I just scored 9 of these receptacles that I mentioned earlier:
Max-In-Wall Power & Signal Bay, 15A Code Compliant Extension System | Panamax
If you go through typical retailers...they go for about $150-$200 each!
At first I was a bit taken back by the price, and figured I would maybe just get 3-4...and then plug into each some longer power strips for more receptacles...but after a little bit of internet surfing and checking eBay...I found them at an electronic surplus outlet for $45 each with tax & shipping.
I only asked the guy for maybe 4-6...and he cut me a deal on his entire lot of 8, and then later he found a 9th he would toss in for free.
You know what they say...that one of the most overlooked items that can get real expensive even for smaller studio setups...is the cabling and distribution of audio and power.
So I'm pretty much locked into my plan for how I will distribute the power from the balanced power box, which eliminates most of the wiring problems encountered in home or less than perfect AC installations. No matter how you do it, you still have the typical house devices...and it's just not cost effective to run completely separate lines from the street just to the studio...and even if you did, you still have your neighbors to contend with if someone runs a motor or odd devices, it will dirty up the power. The balanced power box cleans that up...plus I have other devices that come before that box, which also clean up and protect the power from surges/spikes and regulate the voltage.
TBH...where I am, the power has been pretty good, and generally on the high-side...between 120V and 125V most of the time...which is good for the gear, as opposed to lower incoming voltage because of too many users or supply equipment issues.
There is no industry or any kind of commercial usage within a several mile radius of me...and even the nearest cell tower is several miles away (I sometimes have to find the sweet spot with my cell phone due to the trees in the summer)...so I've not experienced the issues of really dirty/bad power.
That said...with every new installation you often don't know what you got until you power it all up. Sometimes just moving things around makes a difference...but I'll just stick to my plan and use my common sense for electronic and audio hook-ups.
Max-In-Wall Power & Signal Bay, 15A Code Compliant Extension System | Panamax
If you go through typical retailers...they go for about $150-$200 each!
At first I was a bit taken back by the price, and figured I would maybe just get 3-4...and then plug into each some longer power strips for more receptacles...but after a little bit of internet surfing and checking eBay...I found them at an electronic surplus outlet for $45 each with tax & shipping.
I only asked the guy for maybe 4-6...and he cut me a deal on his entire lot of 8, and then later he found a 9th he would toss in for free.
You know what they say...that one of the most overlooked items that can get real expensive even for smaller studio setups...is the cabling and distribution of audio and power.
So I'm pretty much locked into my plan for how I will distribute the power from the balanced power box, which eliminates most of the wiring problems encountered in home or less than perfect AC installations. No matter how you do it, you still have the typical house devices...and it's just not cost effective to run completely separate lines from the street just to the studio...and even if you did, you still have your neighbors to contend with if someone runs a motor or odd devices, it will dirty up the power. The balanced power box cleans that up...plus I have other devices that come before that box, which also clean up and protect the power from surges/spikes and regulate the voltage.
TBH...where I am, the power has been pretty good, and generally on the high-side...between 120V and 125V most of the time...which is good for the gear, as opposed to lower incoming voltage because of too many users or supply equipment issues.
There is no industry or any kind of commercial usage within a several mile radius of me...and even the nearest cell tower is several miles away (I sometimes have to find the sweet spot with my cell phone due to the trees in the summer)...so I've not experienced the issues of really dirty/bad power.
That said...with every new installation you often don't know what you got until you power it all up. Sometimes just moving things around makes a difference...but I'll just stick to my plan and use my common sense for electronic and audio hook-ups.
S
sasquatch
Member
You are very clear.Maybe I wasn't clear earlier...all my gear gets powered from a single balanced power box...and not the house wall outlets.
IOW...the box is plugged into a dedicated 20A outlet...and then it distributes power to all my gear...so everything is grounded back at the box.
TBH...the article you linked to is pretty confusing to follow with all that "Zero Loop" stuff and the diagrams. In a nutshell, what you want is a "star grounded" system, where all gear is grounded back to a single point...my balanced power distribution box. The whole purpose of the balance power box is that it eliminates those voltage differences and creates clean power.
Also...I totally don't understand his logic of running the power lines 100% parallel and in such close proximity to his audio lines...???...at least that's how it appears in the drawing and the images of the conduit installation. That was always considered a bad idea and if you must run parallel, you need to keep a good 2' distance between them. I have always kept my audio lines away from power lines when I had to run them parallel, with only the occasional crossing points where they need to meet at the gear. That's something I learned a long time ago...so his "keep them close" thing doesn't follow that at all.
He says that you "collapse the loop" by simply bringing audio lines as close as possible to electric lines...Huh???
I feel like there's a whole page of detailed info that is missing in that explanation, and it really makes little sense to me.
If anyone can interpret what he is actually talking about...please post up...but for now, I'm following my star grounding and keeping the audio and power lines well apart.
This will be my third, more involved, studio wiring setup...and I've always followed the star grounding system to the best of my ability...and actually, this will be probably the most cleanest yet, since I am able to run my own distribution lines, rather than having to make do with house wiring.
I've not ever had any real ground loop issues on the whole. Sometimes with a guitar amp and pedal, you get something weird, but it's usually fixable at the source...otherwise, my console, rack gear, and recording equipment have always run dead quiet.
Sometimes it's down to an individual piece of gear and how it was wired internally with the signal ground and chassis ground...but that too was an individual case that could be fixed.
With this new studio, I will be rewiring at least 60% of my patchbays with new cable...so there is where extra attention is needed, since I'm going to be re-soldering a lot of connection points.
Just trying to be helpful Miroslav.
If you are a stickler for code compliance note that symmetrical power is not code compliant for domestic use.
Would also think anything after that would not be up to code.
Great when it works until it doesn't.
FYI for all.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
I appreciate the help...I just thought maybe you misunderstood me earlier.
Also...I am NOT wiring the main or sub house panels for balanced/symmetrical use. Doing that...is what would not be compliant for domestic use.
What I am doing is using a balanced power box (Furman IT 20) that simply plugs into one of two studio dedicated 20A outlets...and then from there I run my balanced power distribution for gear either by plugging it directly into the Furman or using the receptacles I mentioned above for more distant needs, rather than running extension cords from the Furman, like I've done in my smaller studio space...but now I'm going to permanently install "extensions" using those receptacles.
I've been using the balanced power unit for a few years now...works great...I have two of them, one as a back-up or if I need a second 20A source for those very rare times when I have a lot of things powered up simultaneously.
It is a lot easier and simpler to do things this way...rather than attempt to rewire the house panels for specific studio needs. All I ask of my electrician is that my two dedicated 20A lines are done as needed...and then he can wire the code-required outlets and lighting and all that, how he normally does it.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
DAY 41
Today most of the asphalt shingles went on the roof...there's only about a 4-5' strip on the longer roof that is left to be done tomorrow, which is good, because then Mon/Tue we have rain coming.
I didn't get a chance to take the pictures until it was almost dark...so they're not as clear, but you can still see the roof progress.
Hoping that tomorrow they will also do the rest of the sheeting on the remaining wall, and close of the gable on the one side, since the roof will only take about 1-2 hours to finish.
Then on Wed/Thur after the rain, I think my windows will be going on in...and I think also attention will be turned to getting the bathroom roof also sealed and finished, and I know the contractor wants to get that back door installed (hasn't even been ordered yet)...so they can have a completely sealed room& bathroom, allowing the use of some space heaters to warm things up...which I'm also waiting for before I start running my audio lines and other stuff. Kinda hard working on that stuff with gloves...and without them, the fingers get stiff real fast when it's below 30 degrees.
Today most of the asphalt shingles went on the roof...there's only about a 4-5' strip on the longer roof that is left to be done tomorrow, which is good, because then Mon/Tue we have rain coming.
I didn't get a chance to take the pictures until it was almost dark...so they're not as clear, but you can still see the roof progress.
Hoping that tomorrow they will also do the rest of the sheeting on the remaining wall, and close of the gable on the one side, since the roof will only take about 1-2 hours to finish.
Then on Wed/Thur after the rain, I think my windows will be going on in...and I think also attention will be turned to getting the bathroom roof also sealed and finished, and I know the contractor wants to get that back door installed (hasn't even been ordered yet)...so they can have a completely sealed room& bathroom, allowing the use of some space heaters to warm things up...which I'm also waiting for before I start running my audio lines and other stuff. Kinda hard working on that stuff with gloves...and without them, the fingers get stiff real fast when it's below 30 degrees.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
DAY 42
Today my main roof was finished... ...and most of the smaller, bathroom roof work was completed, they just need to put down the shingles.
Also the gable was closed of on that same side. There's still the long, window side wall that needs to get sheeting and the top of the gable on the other side, and then comes the siding. One of my windows came in the wrong size...so that has to get returned/swapped out, but not a big deal, and it kinda works out OK, since we can use that window opening as a temporary door to bring in the sub-floor wood and other things. It's easier than going through my front door and then having to make a 90-degree turn through a second door (what will be my studio door).
I should be meeting with the plumber, electrician and HVAC guys hopefully this coming week to finalize some details...and it looks like I'll be putting in the sub-floor sooner than later. It just makes more sense to get it done now, rather than as the last thing prior to the hardwood.
I'm also getting my plans laid out for the lighting, and my audio lines and audio power distribution. Looks like I will end up going under the sub-floor with the audio lines...and the power distro will be through the walls. It's really the easiest, and best/shortest route for the audio lines...plus it will keep them far away from any power lines in the walls.
Still a lot of details to get under control...but the roof and basic shell completion was/is a big phase of the project. Once we move to inside work, it will be somewhat easier and more under out control...instead of the weather (it's getting colder and colder...).
Today my main roof was finished...
...and most of the smaller, bathroom roof work was completed, they just need to put down the shingles.Also the gable was closed of on that same side. There's still the long, window side wall that needs to get sheeting and the top of the gable on the other side, and then comes the siding. One of my windows came in the wrong size...so that has to get returned/swapped out, but not a big deal, and it kinda works out OK, since we can use that window opening as a temporary door to bring in the sub-floor wood and other things. It's easier than going through my front door and then having to make a 90-degree turn through a second door (what will be my studio door).
I should be meeting with the plumber, electrician and HVAC guys hopefully this coming week to finalize some details...and it looks like I'll be putting in the sub-floor sooner than later. It just makes more sense to get it done now, rather than as the last thing prior to the hardwood.
I'm also getting my plans laid out for the lighting, and my audio lines and audio power distribution. Looks like I will end up going under the sub-floor with the audio lines...and the power distro will be through the walls. It's really the easiest, and best/shortest route for the audio lines...plus it will keep them far away from any power lines in the walls.
Still a lot of details to get under control...but the roof and basic shell completion was/is a big phase of the project. Once we move to inside work, it will be somewhat easier and more under out control...instead of the weather (it's getting colder and colder...).
mjbphotos
Moderator
How are you going to be heating/cooling the studio?
J
Johnny Don't!
New member
Awesome stuff here, man. Love the details.
In reference to the previous page's about posts power/audio/wiring layouts...I'm with you in terms of the 90 degree electrical runs. As far as I know, that helps create buzz because voltages running perpendicular create RF interference, no? So I am confused as well.
One other thing: if you've got all that Mogami laying around and would rather have snakes (as one of your previous posts pointed out, you'd rather run snakes and have short individual cable runs instead of a bunch of long cables running to wall boxes), just make them yourself if you are of the DIY ilk and have the time. Most pre-built snakes are fairly limited in terms of options for obvious reasons (gotta keep those margins high!), and custom snakes are stupid expensive. So if you do it yourself, you not only guarantee build and connection quality, you'll also be able to ensure the quality of the wires themselves AND still be able to customize the crap out of it.
I have a friend who is the singer/songwriter in a fairly well-known, popular band that recently won a few Grammys, had hit singles, did big tours, all that (no name-dropping!), so the funds are fairly ample for him right now. I recently went down to visit and see his new digs; he put in a pretty dope studio, just in terms of the design and build alone: not a parallel wall or ceiling anywhere in the entire place; the control room is shaped like a horn in that the front wall is 9' tall and the back is 12'.
He bought an old farm property with a few buildings about 100 yards from the main house; he renovated one of the barns out there. He was still in the process of outfitting it with gear when I got down there, and he did something I thought was really brilliant: instead of hopping online and looking for custom snakes, wall boxes, even acoustic treatment, etc., he called up the monitor engineer and the stage builder from his touring crew and hired them to build everything for him, to spec. Really nice rolling baffles and beautiful custom diffusors in the control room. The front and back walls in the live room are that uneven stone veneer; I thought that was a great idea. I watched the monitor dude (who has a master's in electrical engineering) build these crazy custom snake boxes with some sort of custom cable system that can be extended up to 500ft in some cases, and he build a different one for each different area of the studio.
So for example, the smaller snake boxes he built for the amp iso rooms all had Countryman DI's BUILT RIGHT INTO THEM. I've done work in probably 25 different pro studios over the years, mainly in Chicago but also in NYC, L.A., Nashville, Orlando, and Toronto, among others, and I'd never seen anything like that before. I didn't have time to get into the details of how he did it, but my mind reeled with the convenience of it. He also had built-in the headphone monitoring system's feed into each snake such that it would only require two short cables from the snake to the monitoring unit to get 32 tracks of custom headphone mixing. At each snake. And there were eight.
If you have the skills to do it and patience to source the parts, it's brilliant stuff. And you can customize them for your own space's needs. Just sayin'!
In reference to the previous page's about posts power/audio/wiring layouts...I'm with you in terms of the 90 degree electrical runs. As far as I know, that helps create buzz because voltages running perpendicular create RF interference, no? So I am confused as well.
One other thing: if you've got all that Mogami laying around and would rather have snakes (as one of your previous posts pointed out, you'd rather run snakes and have short individual cable runs instead of a bunch of long cables running to wall boxes), just make them yourself if you are of the DIY ilk and have the time. Most pre-built snakes are fairly limited in terms of options for obvious reasons (gotta keep those margins high!), and custom snakes are stupid expensive. So if you do it yourself, you not only guarantee build and connection quality, you'll also be able to ensure the quality of the wires themselves AND still be able to customize the crap out of it.
I have a friend who is the singer/songwriter in a fairly well-known, popular band that recently won a few Grammys, had hit singles, did big tours, all that (no name-dropping!), so the funds are fairly ample for him right now. I recently went down to visit and see his new digs; he put in a pretty dope studio, just in terms of the design and build alone: not a parallel wall or ceiling anywhere in the entire place; the control room is shaped like a horn in that the front wall is 9' tall and the back is 12'.
He bought an old farm property with a few buildings about 100 yards from the main house; he renovated one of the barns out there. He was still in the process of outfitting it with gear when I got down there, and he did something I thought was really brilliant: instead of hopping online and looking for custom snakes, wall boxes, even acoustic treatment, etc., he called up the monitor engineer and the stage builder from his touring crew and hired them to build everything for him, to spec. Really nice rolling baffles and beautiful custom diffusors in the control room. The front and back walls in the live room are that uneven stone veneer; I thought that was a great idea. I watched the monitor dude (who has a master's in electrical engineering) build these crazy custom snake boxes with some sort of custom cable system that can be extended up to 500ft in some cases, and he build a different one for each different area of the studio.
So for example, the smaller snake boxes he built for the amp iso rooms all had Countryman DI's BUILT RIGHT INTO THEM. I've done work in probably 25 different pro studios over the years, mainly in Chicago but also in NYC, L.A., Nashville, Orlando, and Toronto, among others, and I'd never seen anything like that before. I didn't have time to get into the details of how he did it, but my mind reeled with the convenience of it. He also had built-in the headphone monitoring system's feed into each snake such that it would only require two short cables from the snake to the monitoring unit to get 32 tracks of custom headphone mixing. At each snake. And there were eight.
If you have the skills to do it and patience to source the parts, it's brilliant stuff. And you can customize them for your own space's needs. Just sayin'!
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
The cooling will be from a mini split AC unit...we just have to see what to do about the bathroom/foyer area, as I would like to have cooling running through there too, otherwise they will be a hot zone in-between my studio and the rest of the house. I'm waiting for the HVAC guy to come and look at the build, and to tell us if it would be easier to run a duct from my existing central AC for the bathroom/foyer (my preference) or get a mini split that can also use ducts, and feed a small one off the studio into the bathroom/foyer. Either option has some complexity bringing the duct to them...but I would rather have the mini split solely for the studio.
The heat is a little different...the studio will have hot water baseboard on just the one window wall, added as a 3rd zone from my furnace, and the mini split will also include a heat pump, so I can chose which to use, depending on the temps outside, since the mini split heat pump isn't very effective when temps get into the teens.
The bathroom/foyer will also have hot water baseboard added, and that will be tied to my 1st zone in the house, which is my upstairs living area...and that's also why it would make sense for the AC to be tied to that same central air that covers my house.
Making snakes isn't a problem...I've done more soldering and wiring than I care to remember.
The decision is really about how "clean" I want to keep things. With wall plates and running the cable under the floor and into the walls...it's very clean.
Having a snake(s) across the floor...not as much...but it's the easier way to go, and faster...since I still need to solder the Mogami to the wall plates connectors, and also at the other end for interfacing with preamps.
At this point I'm not buying any ready-made snakes...so it's just a question of what I want to do with the Mogami multi-channel cable...and I'm not yet decided on that. As clean as the wall plates would be...it's also a whole bunch of wall plates on the walls...which is a pretty permanent thing. I mean, yeah, they can be removed at some point down the road if no longer needed, and the walls patched...but I'm also considering that the less holes I need to make in the walls, the better for the long run.
This was never meant to be a commercial studio build...so the new studio space is more than just a studio...and in time, when I get to a point where I no longer have the motivation and interest to record (hopefully not until well into old age)...I would like the room to be a nice space for other interests too.
Along those lines of thinking (not too many permanent wall/floor holes)...I am also reconsidering how I want to set up my studio racks. Initially I was pretty set on creating that typical 4-5 slanted rack setup directly behind the mix position, like you see in many studios...since that is the ideal location for rack gear when mixing, because you can just roll back in your chair, and pretty much stay in the mix sweet spot while you adjust something in the racks behind you.
So I was going to do a more permanent rack installation, with audio cables and power coming up from under the floor...which really didn't appeal to me.
Now I'm thinking more about just having a longer "umbilical" connection from the console to the racks...and with the racks on wheels, which they already are, I can roll them into any position I want during tracking or mixing, since I am often recording on my own, so being able to "spin" the racks around so I can see them, would be great...and when not needed, just roll them back against the wall on the console side, leaving the central floor area wide open, if I want.
It would take about 15' of umbilical from the console to the racks, that would be easily folded behind the racks when they were up against the wall.
That said...the umbilical cabling would be the same thing as snakes on the floor to the back of the room (regardless if I made my own or bought them)...so there's that "keep it clean" thing again.
On the other hand...it may not be as big a deal as it seems. I can lay studio snakes along the perimeter when needed, out of the way for the most part... and any kind of umbilical cables from the console to the racks behind me, would only create a small "watch your step" situation, and not something that would be messy.
Believe me...I've had multiple options running through my head these days, but as I get closer to it...something will just make the most sense, and then that will be it, and I will live with my choices.
I'm still going to run my power distribution through the walls...I already bought the wall plates, so no turning back. My only thought is the power for the racks, if they will be rolling around...but I can set it up so that a single power chord will feed all of them, and just run that separate from the audio umbilical cables.
The idea of more flexibility really appeals to me...but it will come at the price by not having that real clean in-wall/in floor permanent installation...though maybe not such a big price.
Last edited:
J
Johnny Don't!
New member
Ha, funny you mention "umbilical cables," as that's exactly how the control room in the studio I was talking about yesterday works:
All the cabling in the control room runs under the subfloor (they actually suspended the entire control room from the freakin' roof beams; none of the walls, floor, or ceiling touches the actual barn building, and there is enough room under the subfloor for an engineer to crawl around down there if necessary), and they have snakes running from the console and the built-in patch bays there (he sourced an AMAZING '70s era quad Neve 24-channel board and added a mid-80's SSL5000 48 channel side section with like 400 TT-size patch points. The Neve even has Flying Faders, which I still love despite some obsolescence).
However, they run these snakes UNDER the floor. They just left a lot of extra cable down there on some sort of spool system they modded. It was explained to me like one of those circular objects you see mounted to the wall in workshops or auto repair shops for extension cords or air hoses, where you can pull out as much length as you need and use it and then it reels itself back in. That seems a little fancy and over the top to me, when you could just manually feed the snake cables by hand.
If you don't/won't have space under the floor to do this, you could always just run some smaller PVC around the edges of the room on the floor and contain your snake cables in them. Personally, I don't mind having snake cables running across a room, especially a live room; I think that looks much better than a bunch of loose cables running to the wall. Also, if you use snakes, I would not connect them to wall plates; that's just more expense. I'd just build a pass-through in the wall between the live room and control room and run the snake cable through it and then terminate it at a patch bay. You save money and time that way: no purchasing wall plates, no soldering them, and no patching up holes in the future when you decide you no longer need the wall plates. One method I've seen in use all over North America to avoid having the snake cable coming up off the floor and into a pass-through inches above the floor is to run it into a floor pass-through connected to PVC; makes it easy to feed the cable through and when it's not in use, there are plates made to cover such holes.
As you probably can tell, I'm a total DIYer; having been a professional musician for over half of my life, and a poor one at that ("poor" meaning financially, not my musicianship...haha), I find I have more time than money.
All the cabling in the control room runs under the subfloor (they actually suspended the entire control room from the freakin' roof beams; none of the walls, floor, or ceiling touches the actual barn building, and there is enough room under the subfloor for an engineer to crawl around down there if necessary), and they have snakes running from the console and the built-in patch bays there (he sourced an AMAZING '70s era quad Neve 24-channel board and added a mid-80's SSL5000 48 channel side section with like 400 TT-size patch points. The Neve even has Flying Faders, which I still love despite some obsolescence).
However, they run these snakes UNDER the floor. They just left a lot of extra cable down there on some sort of spool system they modded. It was explained to me like one of those circular objects you see mounted to the wall in workshops or auto repair shops for extension cords or air hoses, where you can pull out as much length as you need and use it and then it reels itself back in. That seems a little fancy and over the top to me, when you could just manually feed the snake cables by hand.
If you don't/won't have space under the floor to do this, you could always just run some smaller PVC around the edges of the room on the floor and contain your snake cables in them. Personally, I don't mind having snake cables running across a room, especially a live room; I think that looks much better than a bunch of loose cables running to the wall. Also, if you use snakes, I would not connect them to wall plates; that's just more expense. I'd just build a pass-through in the wall between the live room and control room and run the snake cable through it and then terminate it at a patch bay. You save money and time that way: no purchasing wall plates, no soldering them, and no patching up holes in the future when you decide you no longer need the wall plates. One method I've seen in use all over North America to avoid having the snake cable coming up off the floor and into a pass-through inches above the floor is to run it into a floor pass-through connected to PVC; makes it easy to feed the cable through and when it's not in use, there are plates made to cover such holes.
As you probably can tell, I'm a total DIYer; having been a professional musician for over half of my life, and a poor one at that ("poor" meaning financially, not my musicianship...haha), I find I have more time than money.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Yes...I'm probably going to go that route...just turn my bulk Mogami multi-channel cable into a snake with either pigtails or a box at the one end and pigtails at my console/patchbay end. It's long enough that I can run it along the wall and out of the way if I want...or just to any spot in the room.
Yeah, when not in use I will have about 50' of cable rolled up in the corner somewhere...but I really wasn't enthusiastic about running it into the walls and having all kind of wall plates. As it is, I will already have a bunch of AC outlets that are required by code....then another handful or more of additional specialty receptacles that I will be using for my actual audio gear power...so adding more plates for the audio signals wouldn't have been esthetically pleasing, plus the more receptacles/wall plates, the harder for me to do my final wall treatments. I would be having to do a lot of cutting around all that, and watching where I put panels and other things if I had audio jacks on the walls.
So your friend with the farm house/barn studio...I guess if he can afford a vintage Neve, he can build whatever he wants...but why bother with all the raised/floated floors, etc...if he's out there with acres of land and no one around? What I mean is, the need for absolute decoupling and noise suppression isn't really necessary if you don't have anyone or any noise near you.
I guess though if he has a multi-room studio, then it might be something to do, decouple the control room from the other rooms.
It's nice when you have the really big $$$ to do whatever you want. I mean really...a vintage Neve.
In my situation...I don't have a dedicated control room. I didn't need one or want one....it's just one big room.
It's one thing if you're doing a commercial studio...but for more of a private studio where often it might be just me recording...having to go back-n-forth between a live room and control room would be a major PITA...plus I didn't want to split up my space. It's gloriously large as it is...if I may gloat a bit.
rob aylestone
Moderator
Well - your build has made me decide to revamp my studio when I get home in the new year. Two rooms become one. It means not too much work, but your projects kicked me of my backside. trivial compared to yours, but the right direction.