Repairing an old archtop... advice needed.

[floatingworld]

I've got an old Univox 12-string ES-335 knockoff that i'm trying to get back up to playable condition. She'll obviously never be a showboat, but I'm trying to learn guitar repair/wiring, and figured this'd be a decent place to start.

Pickups and pickup rings were gone when I got her, as was the bridge. I bought replacements, but as you can see, the hole is wider and differently shaped than the pickup rings i got, and will likely only fit the rings on the original guitar. I bet I can't find those, either, so my question is... what's the best way to do this, both from the standpoint of making the pickup installation structurally sound (the guitar has no center block, so the pickups will be mounted on and supported by their screwing to the guitar top only), and cosmetically acceptable? Basically, I don't want to badly damage the guitar, and I don't want this to look like a hack job. Anything else is fair game. Any suggestions?

Also, if anybody knows a place I can get a 12-string floating bridge for an archtop, or double-notched saddles (do those exist??) that would fit in the 6-string tune-o-matic bridge I already bought, please let me know.

Pics are attatched for visual reference.

 

[cephus]

Those may be P-90 holes. or holes that would lend themselves better to fitting P-90s. It's neat, though. Are you gonna make it a 6-string or restoring it to 12?

 

[floatingworld]

Are P-90's usually wider than regular humbuckers? Haven't played on them a lot, so I don't know really how they sound. More width would help, but my primary concern is dealing with the triangular spots. I don't relish the idea of trying to fashion my own custom pickup rings.

At the moment, I have a 6-string bridge for it, and I'd be fine restoring it to a 6 string... probably use it on a more regular basis than it was a 12 anyways. For an old knockoff, she's kinda sweet. Even got a little bit of a quilt to the top.

 

[Light]

What I would probably recomend, unless you can find some pickup rings on eBay, is to make some. You can get pickguard material blanks from WD (among others). It is realitivly easy to work with using saws and files (a belt disc sander makes it go faster). Once you have the shape right, use a sharp knife to scrape a bevel onto the edges (we actually use worn out blades from our jointer, because their weight makes for quick work and a durible edge).

It lookes as though the holes are wide enough for a humbucker, just too long. This would rule out a P-90 in my mind, but you can try them. There just looks to be too many holes for a standard P-90 (and yes, they are longer than a humbucker, but narrower as well). Make sure you get dog ears if you do get them.

If you do make your own pickup rings and go with humbuckers, I would strongly recomend that you get the Pickguard Cutout Template from Stew Mac, and of course a router withe an appropriate template bit. It will make your life a LOT easier. (There is nothing at all fun about trying to cuting one of those things out by hand, and then finding that because it is so thin on one of the edge the force from the file breaks it.)

While your at it, you might want to get a book on guitar electronics, like The New Book of Standard Wiring Diagrams; By Les Schatten.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[Light]

Also, if anybody knows a place I can get a 12-string floating bridge for an archtop, or double-notched saddles (do those exist??) that would fit in the 6-string tune-o-matic bridge I already bought, please let me know.

If anyone has it, Allparts will.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[floatingworld]

okay, noob question here, but i have two pickups... one has (in addition to a foreign name) an "R" stamped on it. also, one has a red wire, and one has a yellow wire. does any of that information tell me which one is supposed to be the neck or bridge pickup?

also, does it matter which way they go in, i.e. should the wire come out nearest the top or bottom side of the guitar (i'm assuming bottom since that's where they connect to, but i wanted to ask).

 

[Light]

okay, noob question here, but i have two pickups... one has (in addition to a foreign name) an "R" stamped on it. also, one has a red wire, and one has a yellow wire. does any of that information tell me which one is supposed to be the neck or bridge pickup?

If they are used, then you can figure which one went where by the length of the wire.

also, does it matter which way they go in, i.e. should the wire come out nearest the top or bottom side of the guitar (i'm assuming bottom since that's where they connect to, but i wanted to ask).

Doesn't really matter. For instance, I usually have the wire on the neck pickup on the bass side, and the bridge pickup on the treble side (I want the screw coils opposite one another, though that is just an apperence thing - it makes no difference in the sound).



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[Dani Pace]

With pickups which come in sets they are often stamped B or R for bridge pickup, N or F for neck. The original idea was probably F=front, R=rear. The bridge pup should be 1, a little brighter sounding and 2, more sensitive (less viberation clocer to the bridge.) F & R was fairly common on older pups, I think Washburn still labels their pups this way.

 

[floatingworld]

sweet, folks. thanks so much for the info. i'm working on a solution for the pickup rings at the moment that i think will work out well... but i think it's pretty bootleg.

however, having connected up one of the pickups to the existing electronics and tested it out, the whole operation buzzes like a bastard. i think i'm going to have to switch out the rest of the pots/switches and reqire everything. my guitar shop guy informed me that doing so on an archtop like this is a nightmare, as there's no easy access to the inside except through the pickup or f-holes.

looks like the project is getting a little bigger..

 

[Light]

sweet, folks. thanks so much for the info. i'm working on a solution for the pickup rings at the moment that i think will work out well... but i think it's pretty bootleg.

however, having connected up one of the pickups to the existing electronics and tested it out, the whole operation buzzes like a bastard. i think i'm going to have to switch out the rest of the pots/switches and reqire everything. my guitar shop guy informed me that doing so on an archtop like this is a nightmare, as there's no easy access to the inside except through the pickup or f-holes.

looks like the project is getting a little bigger..

He's right. Before you remove the pots and switches, make sure to tie a piece of string to each part. Tie the other end to the pot washer. It will be a HUGE help in getting everything back in place.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[Dani Pace]

When you wire your new parts, make a template of your hole patern out of cardboard and wire up everything on it. Cut all the wires a little longer than you really need but not a lot longer and be sure all solder joints are good ones. You will need to leave the wires for one pickup open and wire it from the pickup end. It's a bit tricky to get everything inside the pickup hole then to manuver it all to the right hole, take your time, it's hard but it can be done. Pulling the pots into place with a string is probably the easiest way to get them there. Sometimes I use a spring claw (the tool mechanice use to pick up dropped screws from hard to reach places, available from an auto parts store for $2 or so) to guide and lift pots into place, very small needle nose pliers will work for this too. If you have access to a dremel with a router attachment, making a cover plate for the pickup holes shouldn't be too much of a problem. Pickguard materal which matches (or contrasts) would be a good materal to use. There is a good possibility that the original pickup mounting plates were metal (chrome plated) and chances of finding replacements are pretty slim, you might could have a set made at a machine shop. A decent music store should have a replacement bridge, btw, what type of tailpiece do you plan on using?

 

[cephus]

my guitar shop guy informed me that doing so on an archtop like this is a nightmare, as there's no easy access to the inside except through the pickup or f-holes.

Who is your guitar shop guy, out of curiosity? I don't have one myself and am always looking for a reference to one.

 

[floatingworld]

When you wire your new parts, make a template of your hole patern out of cardboard and wire up everything on it...

A very good idea! I'll use that, thank you.

A decent music store should have a replacement bridge, btw, what type of tailpiece do you plan on using?

I've already got a 6-string floating tune-o-matic bridge that will work just fine, but I've had no luck tracking down a 12-string version, or double notched saddles for the one I've got. The tailpiece, thank god, is screwed to the body and is original/intact.

Cephus, I go to the Getaway Gallery in Grandview (near Victorian Village in Columbus). Not sure how much repair work they do there, but for trying out, purchasing, or just shooting the shit, you couldn't ask for a better place or a nicer owner (Steve). http://www.getawaygallery.com/

 

[cephus]

Wow. Never heard of them. I lived in Harrison West for 5 years (but that was several years ago). I thought you were gonna say 5th ave fret shop or j thomas davis, both of whom are highly recomended.

JTD did a set up and cut a nut for one of my guitars. The only bad thing was that he didn't set it up the way I wanted it. He set it up with really low action, which I can't deal with since I play too hard.

I need a refret on my late 80s '62RI strat. I was going to give 5th avenue fret shop a chance

Next time I'm down that way, I'll stop in to see that getaway place.

Going to the com fest this weekend?

 

[floatingworld]

Naw, to the Desdemona Festival, down in Cincinnati (where i'm from originally). I figured I'd better be on hand for the first ever 3-day indie rock festival to take place there. There's some great bands playing, and it's only $24 for 3 days.

But I'm sure I'll be able to smell the Patchouli from all the way down there...