My home recording studio ideas. Here's the scoop.

  • Thread starter Thread starter SMX_Dizzy
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Here's a quick question:

are drum mics (like for the snare, bass, and toms) dynamic or condenset. someone told me they were condenser, and i was almost positive they're pretty much all dynamic. I wanted to know b/c of my next question, which i will post later, regarding phantom power and such. Thanks.....i'll read those large posts when school's out, Snow Lizard!
 
anyone? let me compile some info before i make my next post
 
There's no hard and fast rules about using condensers to close mic kick, toms and snare, but 99% of the time if you're going to buy a special kick drum mic it's a dynamic. Dynamics are also the most popular for snare and toms. To start building a mic collection, you don't need to go overboard and spend a lot of money - if someone's telling you different, they might not know what they're talking about.

You need a good selection of mics that can handle different tasks, and this is a mix of dynamic mics and condenser mics. They each have their own advantages and disadvantages. Later on when you know more, and after you've done a bunch of recording, (and reading - there's a lot more info out there) you can start to decide for yourself what mics you need to give your collection balance and versatility.

For suggestions, a Shure SM57 (dynamic) is number 1. Very versatile, workhorse mics that are often a number 1 choice for snare and guitar amps. They also work well on toms, kick, bass amps and vocals, but there's other mics that might handle these jobs better. Mic placement techniques are very critical, more so than what you have. A pair of small condensers like the MXL 603s will work well for overheads, because they work well from far away and they can pick up sound fast enough to record cymbals accurately. Most of the drum sound will come from 2 overhead mics, and you can use 1 or 2 dynamic mics to fill in the weak spots - usually kick drum and snare. With these 3 mics, you can do a good job on recording lots of stuff, including drum kit. Later, you can add a different kind of mic - maybe a good dynamic that has more bass response than a 57, like the Audio Technica ATM25. The ATM25 will probably serve you better for kick, bass and maybe vocals, so it adds versatility. Your next mic might be something different again, like a large diaphragm condenser, but be very well informed before you buy one. There's good deals, and there's not so good deals and large condensers are over hyped. Still, this would be a different type of mic again, and it would add more versatility. Instead of a large condenser, you may want to consider a really high quality dynamic mic like an SM7 or RE20 or 421. These dynamics can be a lot more versatile, and they sound excellent. You may even want to get a ribbon mic at that point, but they work best with a good preamp. A really nice preamp will make all your mics sound better. If you buy a bunch of mics that are the same, your choices are limited. You don't want to buy something that you're going to have to sell later on because it wasn't what you need, and you can get by and do some excellent recordings with very few mics, as long as you get the right ones and learn how to use them as well as you can. Start simple, and build it up slowly with the right stuff - it will save you money and frustration in the long run. Select different types of tools to add versatility, and don't overlook the dynamics. Condensers aren't always the answer.

For specific mics to get, you might want to solicit opinions from other people. Maybe head up to the mic forum and post something like, "Hi. I'm trying to build a home recording setup to record a full band with drums using a DAW and I'd like to know what microphones I need to start with. I'm on a small budget, and I'd like to make versatile choices that I won't quickly outgrow. Any suggestions?" That way, you don't need to rely on one or two opinions to steer you in the right direction. Be informed.

You could easily damage or alter a condenser or ribbon mic by placing it inside a kick. People do it, but very carefully, and only when they have a lot of experience. If you use condensers to close mic toms, they might get smacked with a drum stick. Dynamics are better at taking the punishment. A pro might use a dynamic mic or a condenser or even a ribbon for any of this stuff, but only because that's the sound they want, and they have the experience to know how to properly use the tool. Dynamics are very good at close micing, and they give more of a fat sound, so they're a lot more popular on the kick, snare and toms - especially for stage use.

Also, go to this website:

http://www.shure.com/booklets/default.asp

and download 2 PDF documents called:

Microphone Techniques For Drums, and

Microphone techniques For Music - Studio Recording.

These documents will help you a lot to understand how mics work. Read them when you have the time. You might want to print them out and keep them handy for reference. You don't need to follow these suggestions to the letter, and especially with drums, you can get excellent results with a lot less mics. It's often preferred to use few mics on drums. These files will get you started, and answer a lot of questions for you.

I hope this can help you - good luck with your choices.


sl
 
Hi, like smx_dizzy i am planning to make a really cheap home studio to record my band. My band consists of a vocalist, a guitarist, a bassist, and me, the drummer. I want to record 4 tracks, one for each instrument/person, so that it would make editing easy. However, I am on an extremely tight budget (less than $250). I already have a drum mic set (5 dynamics and 2 condenser) and another for the vocalist, as well as a good computer. I am thinking of getting:

-a cheap behringer or yamaha mixer (looking at Yamaha MG10/2 Stereo Mixer or Behringer UB1202) for the drum mics
-a soundcard to plug all the instruments/voice in, including the mixer as one of the inputs (4 inputs) (looking at audiophile 2496)

Do you think this configuration would work? Would I also need mic preamps? How would micing the guitar/bass amps be different from just plugging the amps directly into the computer inputs?

Thanks in advance.
 
Given the choice between a Yamaha and a Behringer, I'd probably always pick the Yamaha. They're a much more reliable company. If the MG 10/2 has 4 mic preamps with insert points, that's a good way to go. As far as I know, the smaller Behringer desks don't have inserts. Yes, you need mic preamps, and yes, these mixing boards have them, so you don't need to buy separate ones.

If you can swing a soundcard with more inputs like a Delta 44, this would work better for drums. The 2496 only has 2 analog inputs. Depending on what recording software you're using, you might be able to overdub each instrument separately to give better sound control. Most recording programs give you lots of tracks to work with.

Yes, this configuration would work.

To plug the amps straight into the soundcard, you need amps with a direct output. Another way would be to plug the direct outs into the mixer so you have more control over your levels. For bass, you could even plug it into the board without an amp to make things easy. If the guitar player has an effects rig or something, that could make things very easy as well.

The advantage of using mics is when you have a good guitar rig through an amp that sounds nice - you can set up one or two microphones to get very good sound, such as a dynamic mic right in front of the speaker and a condenser mic placed back about 2 or 3 feet. If the mics are placed right, this can give you a big fat guitar sound. The problem is, there's more learning curve. How you place everything is a bit finicky at first. Going direct is quick and easy, so both methods work, but there's tradeoffs. A really nice amp makes it more desirable to use mics.

A small mixer and a 4 channel soundcard will give you the flexability to try lots of different recording methods and go with what works best.


Hope this helps,

sl
 
Sorry everyone, I've been a lil busy w/ studyin my butt off for final exams. But finally, here's the question:

I ultimately have a budget, and I'm getting a huge feeling that after I purchase mics and what not, I'm not gonna have enough for theFirepod. It's a terrible feeling obviously. Now I don't know if I should get a mixer. BUT: won't a mixer compress all 8 XLR inputs into one track on Cubase? This one has USB, so it connects easily w/ a computer, so I was wondering if it did individual tracks or all one giant compressed track. I'm looking a mixer like this: Alesis Multimix 16USB. I have researched it, and it is supposed to be a great product.

In this business, I've been whacked around all over the place...deciding on what to get is obviously always the hardest. :confused: Firepod, Alesis mixer, Firepod, Alesis mixer.......ARGH!!!! :eek:

About the mixer,
The MultiMix mixers also have USB audio, which allows direct computer audio interfacing for 16-bit simultaneous stereo input and output using standard recording software.
^ ^ ^ this makes me think that it compresses it. I hope it does individual tracks on Cubase, b/c FOR THE LOVE OF GOD it's $250 less than the Firepod!!! (after $20 rebate, it's $270 less!!! :p)

Please help, b/c this is obviously the biggest decision I have to make: how to get the sound into the computer. After that comes mics, and then I'm good to go. FINALLY!!!!!

PLEASE post asap, b/c school is almost out, and I really wanna get this goin. I'm aiming on having my studio done before the end of July, and thanks to you guys, it will be a great studio at that!

POST POST POST!!!!
 
please have some input in before I come home from school. all the time i'll be on the computer, i'll be on the HRF or PDF, so please respond.

Thanks, and POST!

EDIT: someone told me the Alesis will make it one track, so will someone please clarify if it will? This is the biggest descision I have to make people.
 
Last edited:
Study for your exams! That stuff is more important!

I'm just buggin' ya...

I'm not familiar with that Alesis thing, but it doesn't make sense to me that they'd build a USB mixer with included computer multitrack software if they made you combine all the channels when you record. (I'm nitpicking here, but that isn't really "compressing"... maybe I'll get into that a bit later.) Maybe they have a support forum on their website, or maybe you can email somebody there with the quesiton. It'd also be good if you can find out if that board has inserts.

Also, think about this:

Alesis Multimix 8 USB. $149.00. 4 preamps.
Alesis multimix 16 USB. $349.00. 8 preamps.

I know it's tempting to go with more channels, but Alesis isn't known for great preamps and the unit you're looking at does 16 bit recording only - no 24 bit. If it does what you need, it'll help you to be able to afford all that other stuff, but you'll probably outgrow this thing easily if you stick with it for a long time. 4 channels can cover a drum kit very well. If the Alesis does what it should and fits your budget, learn how to use it as well as you can... mic placement! Keep recording stuff, and keep looking for ways to improve without spending more money on gear. When and if you're ready to get some serious gear (preamps and A/D converters) it'll make a big difference. At least you won't need an entire system, so it gets easier to focus on one thing to upgrade.

I'm not trying to tell you what to buy here - if you really want the bigger mixer, that's up to you. It's only stuff to think about.

But yeah, try to contact Alesis with your questions if you can.

Man, that stuff is CHEAP!

Good luck with your choices.


sl
 
this is just quick, but can u find any (or know of any) mixers that can connect directly to computer and have 20bit or 24bit recording? that would be great, b/c i realize i probly want more...which is the advantage to the Firepod. BUT DAMN, those Alesis things are CHEAP!!!! Would I virtually get the Multimix 16 if I got one Multimix 8 and got another Multimix 8 later? Cuz it's a lot cheaper!!!!
 
Maybe look at Tascam's website to see if they have anything like that. I'm not sure offhand. Tascam stuff is usually pretty decent, but I'll bet it costs more than the Alesis stuff.

Separate converters & preamps are a good way to go, but it costs more obviously. Given the price of a Delta 44, it's not really that much more. That way, you can use whatever pre you want with the same converter. The M-Audio stuff still isn't pro quality - people seem to think there's something missing in the midrange with those, but they're very good for what they are, and 24 bit capable. The Firepod would be no better than that. You can start with a cheap preamp thing like a Yamaha MG series, or one of those Alto S-8 el-cheapos. For good pres, you'd have to look at stuff like the 4 channel Sytek, Grace 101, FMR RNP, Groove Tubes "The Brick" and up. They're all single channel units except the Sytek, and they'd all make a huge difference in the quality of recordings. Any of the converters at Mercenary will be excellent, but they're not cheap either.

For using more than one set of converters to get more inputs, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Every soundcard will have its own clock to sync up the audio. For example, you can get 2 Delta 1010 cards. Each one gives you 8 analog inputs, so in theory you can have 16 inputs, which is stupid, way, lots of inputs. That would be great if you had a big, well built, acoustically engineered studio with isolation booths & stuff, where you wanted to mic up a whole band at once. You'd have to disable the clock on one of the cards, and get it to run off of the clock in the other card. 16 inputs on one clock. I think you can run up to 3 of these at once for a total of 24 inputs. I have no idea if the Alesis stuff does that or not.

Doesn't matter - you should still be able to use the Alesis to learn the art of recording, if that's your best option for now. It's cheap enough that it's no big deal if you have to replace it entirely down the road, and you might still have a use for it as a small mixer. (monitor control for DAW? practice PA? line mixer for stage? sell it on eBay?)

There's a big pile of options.


sl
 
Yesterday, my friend and I recorded some stuff at his house, just goofing around, but it was actually good music. We recorded in 16bit and 24bit, so he could show me the difference. Honestly, in the recordings we made, there really wasn't one. Is there a noticable difference between 16 and 24 bit? SL, I think I'm gonna email Alesis and ask if all the mics put into the mixer get their own track, as apposed to one big squished track. I'll probly go w/ the Firepod anyway if I can find a cheap price. I guess I'll have to wait a while before my insurance report comes in to know if I will be able to or not. I just think it'd be better all over the place. And plus, I already have 3 bands waiting to record in my studio (haha even though they don't know if it's good or not), and I'd rather have as good as I can get early on than something worse early on.

Now, please reccomend me some good condenser mics. I will probly sound picky when I say: b/c of my budget, they can only be around $100 or so, or maybe a lil more. I Might get an SM57 to mic amps and stuff (IF THIS IS A GOOD IDEA, SAY SO) instead of the large diaphram, and then a large diaphram to record vocals and stuff. I think later when I want to mic my whole set, I'll switch the SM57 over to snare and then get a better mic for amps and such.

POST POST POST!!!
 
Audigy soundcards SUCK! Get the E-MU 04040 for only $99. You can even get a pre/soundcard E-MU 1820m with the audio dock for $400. So there's your pre and soundcard. Atleast I think it's $400?
 
btw I would LOVE to edit the (FINAL!!!) part out of my first post, b/c too many retards come on here and fill this thread up w/ Audigy shit. I'M GETTING AN AUDIOPHILE 2496!!!!!!!!! :mad: Most (if not all) of the people that mention the word "Audigy" in their post have not actually read the thread. :mad:
 
Looking at...motu 828

earworm said:
motu 828 (i got this and rocks)

Choctaw wants to know about..828. I have been using a tascam 428 with cubase for years...I have decided to get something with more inputs-outputs. Does the 828 have preamps....do you need a mixer to feed signals to it and what can you do with the outputs? If this sounds like I am uninformed thats right....just looking for something that will as you say...Rock, to me that means not troubles..........just want something that works well with my Cubase SX3.

Thanks for any reply.
 
SMX_Dizzy said:
btw I would LOVE to edit the (FINAL!!!) part out of my first post, b/c too many retards come on here and fill this thread up w/ Audigy shit. I'M GETTING AN AUDIOPHILE 2496!!!!!!!!! :mad: Most (if not all) of the people that mention the word "Audigy" in their post have not actually read the thread. :mad:

Oh the Audigy sucks, what were you thinking?

I'm sorry dude, but you made your bed. Don't call others "retards" just cause they may not have the time or desire to read through the most noobish thread on here. (Enough to make one dizzy... hum)

Let me just ask a few questions, throw a few thoughts out...

.......................................................................................................

MIDI:
You don't need a soundcard to get a MIDI interface. I'm just not why you want an AUDIOPHILE. Do you have a midi keyboard/controller? Do you need to have midi right from the start? Do you know what "MIDI" is?

Soundcard:
What are you using to multitrack? You're recording drums, how bout a M-Audio Delta 1010LT? Whatever it may be, I personally would get a soundcard without an internal preamp.

Preamps:
A little 12/16 mixer is your cheapest source of preamps. Possibly a good place to start. And maybe a quality single channel tube pre for single micing apps such as a guitar or vocal track.

Mics:
I'm not sure how you're planing to record, a live band or just one intrument takes at a time. Start with just a few, figure out what you need. If you're going with one intru at a time, maybe something like...

Kick/Bass amp mic (Beta 52, D6, D112...)
Snare/Guitar amp mic (SM57... why not?)
SD Condenser mics: Overheads/Acoustic Guitar (Oktava MC012 [hard to find], MXL 603s... )
LD Condensers: Mono-Overhead/Vocals/Whatever.

Yeah, so I would say get no more than 3, 4 or 5 mics max to start. If you're looking to mic your group live maybe get an extra SM57 or something.

......................................................................................................

To sum up, might I suggest not going overboard. Go with quality over quantity, you won't regret this and it's more fun. Figure out what you need. Flush out all your thoughts so far, because you've been led astray greatly by your friend. Before you spend a dime, I beg of you, please learn the basics such as cables. That's I can think of.... Search, Read, Search, READ!
 
Why are you spending money on new stuff. Its clear that you are either a troll and should be ignored or you are someone who should be working with second hand stuff as cheaply as possible so that when you actually learn which end is up in a studio, you don't feel so bad about the money you spent to get there.

What is your total budget to spend (for everything - room, gear, PC/DAW)?
What is the purpose of recording the CD? Demo? to sell at gigs? because its cool?
What is your experience with multitracking, mixing, sound editing (from your posts I would say none)?
Depending on the answers to these questions, different options are available.

Prescription without diagnosis is STILL malpractice.
 
get a used fostex vf16, a used sound card with adat lightpipe, a used mixer, some used 57s and condensors for drums and maybe some vocal mics and some nice preamps.. at that point you might have spent $600 or $700 max and you can record something good enough to be proud of. and you can resell everything once you've got the hang of it and not lose much money at all!
 
Yeah, let me just correct what I said. Obviously SMX_Dizzy has no clue what he's facing/talking about. I re-read most of his posts, SHOCKINGLY noob. I'm down with dcwave, and treymonfauntre.
 
Fuck digital. Buy a tape machine and do some REAL recording. :rolleyes:
fitZ
 
Yeah, an Otari with a 2" 16 track head stack will give you around 40 minutes of recording at 15 IPS, and the tape should only cost around 200 bucks. Editing is a breeze if you have a unit with a built in splicing block. Once you've built a climate controlled vault for your tapes, you shouldn't have any problems with shedding. I'm sure that most people here will know exactly how to bias the machine properly. The mixing console and 1/2 track can come later.


sl
 
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