My home recording studio ideas. Here's the scoop.

[SMX_Dizzy]

Do i really need to get a preamp or could i just get some xlr to 1/4 cords?

And are those two mic plugins xlr or something else? I have untill the first few weeks in June to decide how this is all going to work, so i'm just trying to get everything sorted out before i make my purchases.

 

[Halion]

Yes, you need preamps, not just cables. If you don't use preamps, the mics will either not work at all (because they are not getting phantom power), or their level will be so low that turning it up digitally will result in huge amounts of noise, or just ugly sound.

The mic inputs are XLR.

 

[SMX_Dizzy]

I'm not sure if I'll get individual drum mics first...I'll just use 2 overheads to begin w/. Those should work in the XLR mic inputs on the front. But how much is a preamp for mics? Post links if possible!

And does anyone know anything about my motherboard question? Does the IEEE (firewire) plug into the USB parts or are there specific pins for the firewire?

Thanks!

EDIT: And why do the mics do this if i use an XLR-1/4 cable instead of the preamp? It's just a lot cheaper i'm assuming...but i'd think it would work.

 

[snow lizard]

Soundcards:

- Latency

Creative Labs cards all use the same A/D converters. These converters are similar to some you might find in a few of the $20.00 Chineese soundcards. Latency means that although the card has full duplex capability (this means that you can record and playback at the same time) there is a delay time between the sound that you hear in your headphones or monitors (when you play your instrument to record) and when it actually gets recorded. If you're going to overdub lots of tracks for different instruments, everything will be slightly out of sync. Also, unless Creative Labs has changed things, these converters operate at 16 bit, 48000 Hz. Yes, you can set them to different rates, but the card will do a conversion to, and/or from 16/48k. Not the A/D converter itself. More latency.

A good quality audiophile or recording soundcard will have other features that work a lot better. All cards have latency, but if it's 5% to 10% of what you're going to get with a Soundblaster (= LOW LATENCY), you won't be able to notice it. Add to that if you change the bit rate and sample rate, the A/D converters will switch to the set rate, unlike the one set to 16/48k only, relying on an external conversion.

- Noise Floor

Consumer cards can be anywhere from not very good to even worse for recording. Cards made for recording are much much more quiet. The list goes on to things like frequency response, yadda yadda.

Yes you can record with any full duplex card, but prices have come down so much on the prosumer recording stuff that it doesn't make sense to look at the other stuff unless you need the midi/game port.

PCI cards cost less, but use the same A/D converters. That's the important part.

Microphones and Preamps:

Microphones put out a low level signal. The inputs to a soundcard that doesn't have a built in mic pre are line level. The mic will not have a loud enough signal to record, so you need a preamp to make the mic loud enough.

Dynamic mics do not use phantom power.

Condenser mics need phantom power.

Dynamic and condenser mics are both used for recording. Condensers are good at recording sounds from far away, like if you're going to record a drum kit with 2 overheads only.

There are a bunch of cheap preamps on the market, but to have really good sound, you need a really good preamp. If you're on a budget and you need a lot of preamps, you might want to look at getting a small mixer. An Allen & Heath Mixwizard mixing board can give you around 10 preamps for something close to $100.00 per preamp. They are not the best, but this is an excellent place to start. The thing is, you will need something like $1,000.00 to start looking at one but the quality is ok. Behringer and Alto are companies that make cheap, cheap, cheap mixers. They are not very good, but they work and they can get you started if you don't have much money. All of this stuff has phantom power if you need to use a condenser mic. There are a lot of other products - some work better than others.

For drum overheads, you probably want to look at a pair of small diaphragm condenser mics, sometimes called pencil condensers. You can start to record most other stuff with dynamic mics like the Shure SM 57.

If you spend a lot of time reading archives in this BBS or other recording forums, you will learn a lot about recording. Do a search for the topics you're interested in and see what happens.

Oh yeah:

Mics operate at low impedence. This is usually an XLR input. Instruments operate at high impedence. This is usually a 1/4" input. There is a difference.

Links:

Pro quality expensive stuff: http://www.mercenary.com/

M-Audio: http://www.m-audio.com/

Shure Microphones: http://www.shure.com/

Ultra Cheap Mixers: http://www.altoproaudio.com/html/mixers.php

Much Better Mixers:
http://www.allen-heath.com/

Something Different:
http://www.greatriverelectronics.com/

You Are Here:
https://homerecording.com/bbs/

 

[SMX_Dizzy]

It seems i'm being talked out of the Audigy. I might accept this fact that it sucks and all, but what am I gonna do about MIDI inputs?

I still need a cound card thought that has the standard speaker input. The studio monitors i'm considering (highly) use standard computer speaker inputs, and so far I've not seen a card suggested with one. This is making me think I should get the Audigy, a Delta or Audiophile, and that M-Audio 1814. Unless someone can help me with the speaker input and MIDI situation, i'm almost positive i'm still going Audigy.

It would be very helpful if someone could post some specific links to mic preamps. (forgive me if there are preamps in the above links)

Thank you so much.....that last post was incredibly helpful, snow lizard.

EDIT: Is this the kind of preamp I need? It looks very good and is pretty cheap. But what kind of cable becomes the output?

 

[snow lizard]

For now, you can go to Radio Shack and get an adapter cable to go from the stereo mini jack of your computer speakers to 2 1/4" mono plugs. Later on, you might want to upgrade to proper near field monitor speakers.

A lot of $20.00 sound cards have midi ports, if you don't have a card already. I'm not sure if your recording software can handle multiple sound cards or not, but you can always install 2 cards and switch if necessary.

At one time, I think M-Audio cards had issues with VIA chipsets - many people used to advise against VIA chipset computers for recording. I'm not sure if this is changed now or not. I've used an M-Audio Delta 44 for a few years now, and have never had a problem with it. I'm using an Intel chipset.


sl

 

[Halion]

Ok, I'll try to help you out as best I can. Question by question:

- Mics connectors are pretty much always XLR. That is the standard and that's what you should use. They can carry phantom power and are balanced, meaning they don't really pick up any noise. Don't use an XLR to 1/4" Jack plug, you will lose the ability to use phantom power, and unbalance the signal. Bad, bad.

- You need to understand the way the signal travels to understand what you need. From source to computer, for example, an overhead:
Drums -> Condensor overhead mic -> Preamp for phantom power, gain, and accepting a balanced signal -> A-D convertor (soundcard) -> computer, either by FireWire, USB or PCI. These are the things you absolutely need. Each arrow, except for the first one, is a cable. Every part of your signal chain will affect your sound quality. So if you, for instance, choise to forget a couple of preamps and you lose the ability to use condensor mics (no phantom), will record with extremely high noise levels (no analogue gain and no balanced signal). Bad, bad, very bad.

- Sound elaborate and expensive doesn't it? Luckily, there are products that combine these things, like the very popular Presonus Firepod:
http://www.presonus.com/firepod.html
This is a 1 unit high rackmount device that features 8 preamps, lots of output options (to connect your speakers, with the standard 1/4" jacks you mentioned), and a firewire connection to your PC. It also has MIDI input and output.

- FireWire and USB are not the same. They cannot be connected to each other. However, if you computer does not have a FireWire port, you can get a FireWire PCI card. These are not expensive at all, and will give you one or more firewire ports.

Hope this info helps you. I can give an example of my setup, a very basic one:
Guitar -> condensor mic -> cheap behringer preamp (phantom and gain) -> Terratec EWX2496 soundcard (A-D conversion). My preamp has XLR out, but my soundcard only has Cinch in, so I bought XLR to Cinch cables. My speakers are connected to the outputs of my soundcard (active monitor speakers) using Cinch to Cinch cables.

 

[SMX_Dizzy]

Here are the studio monitors i'm getting. Very nice, despite the price (haha that rhymed!). My friend has them; they're very clear, have excellent highs and lows, and can be very loud when needed. I'm not a fan of high volume, but the sound is not distorted at all when turned up all the way. They do have standard speaker inputs tho, which i guess are called RCA (which i believe is 1/8" too). I guess i'll need the Audigy or some converters for them .

That Firepod is looking very sweet. If all those inputs on the front are XLR, WOW! It even has MIDI and everything. Looks amazing. I think i'll make a little rack with that and a cheap mixer/EQ rack part too and maybe a "Feedback-be-gone".

Any input (if any left) is still welcome and highly appreciated.

Thanks a ton guys!

 

[cobaltblue]

Those monitors look awful

My suggestion would be to go for a digital multitracker, an 8 track tascam or the like.

Learn the skills of multitrack recording and mixing and overtime start building up a "real" studio if that's what you require.

You will find it much easier learning the art "hands on" by pushing faders and turning knobs than using a DAW

Just my opinion for what it's worth.

Good luck anyhow. A drummer starting a studio scares me

 

[SMX_Dizzy]

Those monitors look awful

haha Yes, I will admit they look horrible, but they are far from it. I'm surprised they aren't $250 b/c they sound just as good as monitors around that price range...and I know what $250 monitors sound like (tried some in Indiana).

Learn the skills of multitrack recording and mixing and overtime start building up a "real" studio if that's what you require.

So you're saying I should just get the basics and then move to the big stuff? I know how a lot of it works already...i've used a lot of them myself (ie- multitrack software, rackmounted mixing devices, etc.). I just want a good quality to begin with b/c I'm getting a lot of money from insurance (b/c my house burned down).

Since the studio monitors do use standard speaker connecters, how am I going to connect them into a better card like the dealtas or the audiophiles? I am pretty sure, however, that i'll get that Firepod when i get my studio up bare minimum.

 

[Neeps]

Easy big man!

I think you need to slow down with your purchase decisions... just because your friend has it doesn't make it good...

For gods sake don't buy the audigy... are you daft or something!

Take some time to read the vast amounts of information that already exists on this forum before you make up your mind.

It'll be worth it in the long run.

 

[Frenchc]

haha Yes, I will admit they look horrible, but they are far from it. I'm surprised they aren't $250 b/c they sound just as good as monitors around that price range...and I know what $250 monitors sound like (tried some in Indiana).


I'm pretty new here so take m advice lightly but I do know that whether the monitors cost $150 or $250 they are still gonna sound pretty shitty, I'd save and buy something in the next level.

 

[HangDawg]

No, I think he's right. Don't listen to any of these guys. Go ahead and get the SoundCrapper card. Get the samson speakers with the RCA connectors (becuase that's what the SoundMasher has) Pick up a nice Phonic mixer and a couple Nady mics and you'll be on yer way to recording hottness, the likes of which nobody has ever heard.

 

[fraserhutch]

Well, if you're gonna go with the audigy, you're gonna go with the audigy, despite everyone's warnings. Do what you gotta do.

The Audigy is not a recording sound card. In my opinion, its line in is good for little else that supporting voices foir gaming.

If you monitors have phono or mini jacks, that's a pretty good indication your monitors are toys too. That you have one toy should not imply that you go with a second toy. Radio Shack sells adapters.

I like CobaltBlue's suggestion. I think you need to learn from the ground up on a fool-proof system. I don't think you'll be happy taking the route you're considering. Or maybe you will, but the general consensus (which I agree with) is that your recordings will suck big time. I do think that you will quickly come to realize this, and regret your decision and the money you wasted.

Do a search on the and other forums (which you should have done up front anyways) and you will find many examples of others who learnt the hard way that to save money up front by buying cheap inevitably ends up being more expensive. And have a lot of fun trying to sell your gear in order to upgrade.

My $0.02

 

[SMX_Dizzy]

looks like i'm starting at point 1 again. I'll look into some better monitors. Probly $300 max. I already stated this is gonna be budget but is gonna have good stuff...and i'll add more/better stuff later. Things are really hectic right now trying to settle things with the insurance co. and all, so i dunno how much money i'll actually get. I want to save most for a car, but the most extra I'll spend is around $800 or less.

With that being said, I think i'll try to go by the diagram from the Firepod (Firepod link ). Question: in the picture, it shows two studio monitors. Do these only work when you play something out of it?...Or do they even make noise when i start up Windows for example? So it's similar to a sound card? I now believe i'll go with the Delta or the Audiophile. Which one has output so I can run the studio monitors out of it? I assume both...

Keep hitting me up with stuff. Thanks to you guys my studio will be a TON better than i planned it to.

No, I think he's right. Don't listen to any of these guys. Go ahead and get the SoundCrapper card. Get the samson speakers with the RCA connectors (becuase that's what the SoundMasher has) Pick up a nice Phonic mixer and a couple Nady mics and you'll be on yer way to recording hottness, the likes of which nobody has ever heard.

^^^This made me feel like an idiot though....I respect your opinions (a lot more than i used to, now), But don't make fun of me for stuff. I don't wanna sound like a whiney p*ssy right now, but i know i'm not professional. I'm new to this. Leave the stuff like that to yourselves please.

Will post more later. Thanks.

EDIT: Here are some monitors i was looking at. Keep in mind i was just browsing. Probly not the greatest, but i was just wandering this sight and fell upon these. My question: when it says "input=1/4", does it mean that's what connects to the sound card?...

Please post more reasonably priced monitors and what kind of cables they have to go into the sound card. I'm looking at Deltas and Audiophiles right now.

I've been searching the forums and have found a ton of info. I think my biggest decision is what kind of sound card i'll go w/ (delta or audiophile) and what mics i should use. I also wanna make a nice rack out of that Firepod and maybe add a graphic equalizer and a Feedback Destroyer....would the equalizer plug into the Firepod?

Please keep posting!

 

[SMX_Dizzy]

bump please

 

[manning1]

dizzy.
i'm a computer engineer.
over the past year i posted all sorts of help for people like yourself.
search undrr my name and go back a year and read.
including...seriously consider an amd 64 as the heart of your daw.
i posted configurations in the past.
including computers, software, mics, speakers,soundcard etc etc - in fact all the gear to set up a good studio.
i agree on dropping the audigy idea.peace.

 

[SMX_Dizzy]

I am dropping the Audigy! YAY for me! I want to go AMD very badly, but insurance will only pay so much, and it'd be more than the limit to get the AMD That's why i'm going Intel...

I'll definitely search under ur name, but how do i search for a name? I'm new to this forum so I don't know everything yet.

 

[nomer]

Don't use the audigy? Man, some of these forums crack me up. Yes, I am new to this one, but not to others. Trying to find a home recording person that will say they use the audigy is like trying to find someone who would openly state they like Garth Brooks. No one you ever talked to liked him, but he would sell out auditoriums in 15 minutes.

Spin Doctors....that is how it all gets started. Pro-Gear companies spend a lot of money to get people thinking "If you are not using my product, it is inferior and will sound like crap".

I live here in Nashville, TN and can assure you that there are several "Home Studio's" and semi-pro studio's all over this city that use the SB Audigy 2 Platinum or the Audigy 4. If I get the chance, I will get some recordings and put up that uses the Audigy 2 and then you can be the judge for yourself. It all depends on the person in the computer hot seat on how well the Audigy 2 performs.

I make my living doing Vocal Demo's and am in and out of Pro Studios, Home Studio's and some that shouldn't even exist doing vocal demo's for song writers. There are more "Home Studio's" with the Audigy 2 than most people will ever confess, because if it doesn't sound cool to the general public, who in the hell will claim having one?

Buy what you can afford and and learn what you are doing. I learned a long time ago that people often blame the equipment for their lack of skill. The more money you spend, the less skill you have to have because the electronics themselves do most everything for you. The Audigy 2 will be sufficient to produce most any type of demo you would ever won't. It's not like anyone is trying to compete with the Major Labels here, is it? If so, I really don't think you should be on your home PC doing it.

Mike

 

[BRIEFCASEMANX]

I Was Using A Soundblaster Audigy 2 And I Moved Up To A Presonus Firepod And It Made A World Of Difference. Like Someone Took A Blanket Off My Monitors. And The Firepod's Converters Aren't Even Considered Great By Top Level Pro's. Trust Me, If You Compare The Soundblaster With Something Half Decent You'll Never Look Twice At Another Soundblaster Again. Awful Sounding Cards.