For those of you who long to be a "pro" engineer...

  • Thread starter Thread starter Harvey Gerst
  • Start date Start date
Someone on this board needs to read these last few posts on editing 2" tape.

This person doesn't think physical tape editing is practised anymore.

You know who you are.:p
 
I miss cutting tape. I say this whenever anyone asks me about tape, or asks if I know how to edit. MM's thread makes me rethink that. I have been lucky, in that I never had to fix a take like that, but DAMN. Not for me.

By the way, I want to buy the movie rights.

Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Ganhdi
 
Robert D said:
I love fishing, but I would never consider doing it for a living. Same goes for scuba diving. A good way to ruin the things you love in life is to turn them into your daily grind. This sounds like the case here, and I sympothize with Mixerman for the damage these sessions are doing to the long term health of his career physche. He sounds dangerously close to burn out.
Click to expand...

A valuable observation, and one that ties into Harvey's thread title ...

I'm just going to share my observations of two particular pro engineers I know. Yes, they do this for a living and have for years. They focus on different genres and have different levels of success (one much more well-known and hence pricey than the other, but both have respectable discographies).

When asked how they got into recording, the stories bore a similarity (paraphrased):

"I started by recording my own compositions. Then I got enough gear and skills and thought, 'Hey, I can charge other people to do this for them.' Then I had to get more gear and a special facility to get the clients. Now, I have to keep recording other people to pay for gear/facilities -- what I own now and what I need to acquire to keep up with customer expectations. I don't get time to do my own stuff anymore."

So many of us are hobbyists who start because we want to record our own music economically. Some of us get more professional results than others. And some of us want to get into this as a business. I only offer up the above anecdote because I think it's worth being aware of that evolution, from doing what you love to turning it into WORK.

Of course, Mixerman, at his professional level, has probably resolved this dilemma assuming it ever came up for him. But for the rest of us, there's definitely a well-traveled path from hobbyist to pro engineer, and it's derailed a few artists I know.
 
geekgurl said:


A valuable observation, and one that ties into Harvey's thread title ...

I'm just going to share my observations of two particular pro engineers I know. Yes, they do this for a living and have for years. They focus on different genres and have different levels of success (one much more well-known and hence pricey than the other, but both have respectable discographies).

When asked how they got into recording, the stories bore a similarity (paraphrased):

"I started by recording my own compositions. Then I got enough gear and skills and thought, 'Hey, I can charge other people to do this for them.' Then I had to get more gear and a special facility to get the clients. Now, I have to keep recording other people to pay for gear/facilities -- what I own now and what I need to acquire to keep up with customer expectations. I don't get time to do my own stuff anymore."

So many of us are hobbyists who start because we want to record our own music economically. Some of us get more professional results than others. And some of us want to get into this as a business. I only offer up the above anecdote because I think it's worth being aware of that evolution, from doing what you love to turning it into WORK.

Of course, Mixerman, at his professional level, has probably resolved this dilemma assuming it ever came up for him. But for the rest of us, there's definitely a well-traveled path from hobbyist to pro engineer, and it's derailed a few artists I know.
Click to expand...

This is how I got started in mixing. As a songwriter, I never could afford to park my butt in front of a set of nearfields for hours on end. Now that I got my little set up, I've had that experience and I've learned I have a knack for mixing. I'll admit I'm not that great on my own stuff. I'm too close to it. But, on other people's stuff, I can't believe it's me. It's like: "Why didn't I learn this years ago?" Still, I turn people away and only mix projects that I want to mix. I don't need the money mixing can generate so I'm able to stay focused on the songwriting. But, I do get detoured by mixing.

Steve
http://www.piemusic.com
 
This is awesome!

First off, thank you, Harvey, for linking this thread! This is truly the most genuinely funny stuff I've come across in months!

Secondly, I've got to say "Thank goodness!!!!" The last project I worked on was almost exactly like this, only it was a home-studio project. But our drummer sounded exactly like Dumb Ass. He could barely read, but he had a friend who was an engineer, so he (apparently by osmosis) knew everything about recording. Except where to put drum mikes, how to stay in time to a click and scratch track; you know, the little stuff. And our guitar player was Eyore without the drinking problem. Only he might have been worse, since when he was depressed he'd expect everyone else to be low key, and when he'd come in manic he'd wonder why everone wasn't at his level of up-ness.

Finally, the Singer's personality was split between the guitar player and drummer, who constantly wanted to make it, but wanted artisitically valid music. Throw in the "more-me" syndrome, and you've got a recipie for disaster.

Reading this has made me realize that I'm not alone, and that I was totally justified in being frustrated. Mercifully there was no money on the line for me, so I was able to just walk away, which sounds like what MM would like to do here. Thanks to reading this, I feel a LOT better about having walked away.

So thanks again, Harvey. You've made it possible for me to recover some of my lost sanity, and also given me a bit of a reality check that my experience was not an "amateurs-only" affair. I think it's time I got a drum machine and started just working on my own stuff, if only for the mental(Metal?) health of it all! :)
 
I think he's finally getting it:

"Now I recognized the situation for what it actually was. Humorous. Not pathetic, not sublime, not hairball. Humorous. I had been given an instant attitude adjustment. I now understood what Willy was trying to achieve. Where I had been negative, and doubtful that anything could save Dumb Ass, I was positive that we could do something creative to make the edited take work."

That's what I like to hear! :D
 
Great thread.

Man, I've been reading it the entire evening. It's better than any soap will ever be...
 
Mr.J. Weasle...A&R..You gotta love it..Can't wait for his enterance:)



Don
 
hmm

I'd be interested to know how much everyone weighed before this all began and finally after..those muffins gotta be 800 calories a pop or so, and lunch and..ouch..at least it's free..I'm lucky when one of my regular bands buys me Taco Bell :))

Mixerman sounds a lot like me, it's scary..I'm seeing myself in XX years..oi.

...and reading this after dealing with a problematic drummer, and a band that wants me to 'fix' it for THIS sunday so they can lay down bass, guitars, and vocals..WOWOWOW..should be easier than doing 188 cuts with a blade.


...I can't wait until Cotton/Dumbass hits a Neumann by accident, or knocks over an overhead and sends a C12 down on someone...

..this is like the Osbournes, but better :)

--Sal
 
The more I find out abvout the music business at large, the more I'm glad that I'm not involved with it.

I don't know whether to carry on reading Mixerman's thread or to just buy the damn book when it comes out. It's genius.
 
I'm thankfull to see that at least one thing is universal in the music world, wheather you're a big fish in a big pond or a little fish in a puddle of duck shit, when the going gets tuff, spark up a fatty.:D
 
Its interesting how little control you have as an engineer in a major studio working for a major label. MM seems to be at the mercy of this wannabe band and doesnt seem to have the power to go up against them as he gets stuck recording the bass player singing and the singer playing guitar. In my own setup I am constantly suggesting to bands which way to go, adding parts, rewriting parts, writing and playing keys, playing the drums for a piece instead of their drummer, etc. As was said above theres less delineation in smaller projects. Id much rather be hands on than have to conform to some tightly delineated job description of engineer or producer. Of course it would be great to have an assistant to do the tedious stuff like doubling and panning, looping and lining up tracks, etc
Its also pathetic how much time and money get wasted. Bands playing basketball, playstation, drinking, smoking fatties?! And then the record companies bitch about their shrinking profits bec of file sharing on the internet. I guess though in the long run it all comes out of the bands hide as they pay the record company back for the advance that paid for all that...so its all good.


I think MM's piece calls for a new job description within the industry: band therapist. I think its long overdue and would prevent those awful breakups of our favorite bands. It could help prevent all those useless records made by singer's after leaving bands at the height of their success, foolishly thinking theyre too good for the band. MTV could dedicate whole shows to what bands are going for band counseling with which band therapists, what their issues are, etc
 
I can't believe how much the guys in this band hate each other. Granted, they've gone a lot farther in their careers than I ever have in my band or any band I've ever worked with has, and that may have raised the stress level for them. But in my band, we wouldn't have those kind of nasty disagreements. For one thing, we can all play our instruments well, and second, we have a blast playing together, and we can always resolve artistic differences without too much hoopla.
 
JuSumPilgrim said:
In my own setup I am constantly suggesting to bands which way to go, adding parts, rewriting parts, writing and playing keys, playing the drums for a piece instead of their drummer, etc...I'd much rather be hands on than have to conform to some tightly delineated job description of engineer or producer
Click to expand...

You're not wrong there - I've actually started refusing (potentially well-paying) jobs if I have a feeling that all I'll be required to do is push the "record" button. If I can't get involved, then I'm not interested.

Maybe if I was making my living from this then I'd do some "just shut up and record" sessions, but while it's a hobby, I'm only gonna do stuff I enjoy. Life's too short for any other attitude.
 
I do record in an engineering only capacity at times but dont sit on the side and indulge every whim of a band while theyre on budget. Its amazing to me how much money goes to waste recording shitty inefficient bands in $5000 a day studios.
 
This last installment is like a bad slapstick skit, w/ mixerman probably ending up looking as if he has been hit by a steam roller.

I mean, all of this shit happens at the lower end of the food chain anyway, and usually end up in a row - bassists deciding to be singers, singers deciding to play guitar... but these guys are trying to record a major label release... the level of professionalism within the band needs to improve IMO. Jeez, no wonder it takes a year or more to get the recording for a big label release done.
 
It just reminds us of something that we all know. In the world of musicians, 3/4 of them are posers. It's not simply about being able to play your axe....it's also about the attitude, although these guys seem limited in their abilities but they are extremely limited in their attitudes. They don't deserve the shot they're getting and they use up a slot that could go to someone more deserving. I can promise you that if I ever got a shot with any of my bands; I'd be all ears and focus on the goal.....and I'd be knocking some heads if anyone else in the band wasn't. Oh well.....it's off to my day gig I go. Hi-Ho---Hi-Ho...it's off t.........
 
This story is starting to sound more fictional as it goes on, but that's ok, because it makes for great reading. If the book was out in paperback, I would buy it today- and wouldn't put it down!
 
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