For those of you who long to be a "pro" engineer...

  • Thread starter Thread starter Harvey Gerst
  • Start date Start date
littledog said:
... so it's a little difficult to keep a straght face while listening to some amateur wannabe say: "Well, I always dreamed about being in a top pro situation, and I can tell you for a fact, if I was in their position I would do things differently..." (Sound familiar, anyone?)
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Yea, it sounds familiar, and excuse me for taking this as a personal attack, but I don't appreciate the "some amateur wannabe" comment. Look dude rancher, you're one of the more knowlegeable people on this board, which I've noticed is often a viable substitute for a "licence to be a prick" around here. :D So I suppose I should follow my own advice and just laugh it off, which I am choosing to do.

(By the way, I am using the big, wide-grin smileys throughout for a reason, so please insert humorous tone when you see them. Thanks.)

Besides, I feel kinda' bad for you after that severe licking you took from Ethan on the recent "Clash of the Preamp Titans" in the Rack forum, so I'm going to take it easy on you out of sympathy. :D :D

One thing you seem to be ignoring here is that there's a very real difference between conductor/director and accompanist . Namely, who is getting paid by who, etc. I may not work with big names and big labels, but I'm very much aware who the client is and what my ultimate role is in my more modest scheme of things. Whether I'm recording a drum overdub for one tune, or a 3-song demo to be distributed to booking agents and Chicago bars. :D

I've spent many years in the performing arts, both as and actor and even in the pit playing the French Horn. I understand all too well that neither the director of the show or the orchestra is getting paid to treat me with kid gloves. But keep in mind that I didn't write any of the lines I spoke or any of the notes I played. I didn't dream up any of the characters. Not a dime of my money has been invested in the show (other than my pretty brass horn or gas money to the rehearsal).

And most importantly, I can be replaced in an instant (within reason, obviously) and it will be the same damn show.

Even my wannabe butt understands there's a very real discrepancy between some of the parallels you're attempting to draw here. :D (insert big, humorous smiley).

But I'll humor you and work within your parallels, nonetheless. Geting back to the story, which I actually find to be uproariously funny and entertaining . . . notice how our friend, Mixerman had pretty much already decided that this was going to be a difficult situation, that the cards were stacked against him, and he was basically fucked.

And he hadn't even gotten through the first day yet.

Now I've had directors who pushed me and the rest of the cast, musicians, etc. very hard. I've also had those who took the attitude of: "You're all professionals, and I trust you'll do a good job." Either approach is acceptable (within reason) in my opinion, as long as the show is good in the end.

But I'll clue you in on something, my little barker friend, and even a wannabe can tell you this :D : If you already make up your mind from the beginning before you even get halfway through the initial read-through that your lead can't sing worth a lick and is dumb as rocks . . . that the show is either going to suck or be extremely difficult or ultimately bomb . . .

then guess what IS going to happen every time?
 
chessrock said:
...which I've noticed is often a viable substitute for a "licence to be a prick" around here.
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You say that like it's a negative thing?!?!?

:D
 
I'll say it again....Negative energy breeds more negativity....every time.
I agree that the session accounts are funny and I appreciate being able to read about them. But the nasty comments about how stupid and inferior to him everyone else is are harsher than I, personally, like to hear. Denigrating other people just isn't necessary. I often get gigs playing with musicians of limited ability. Some of my friends sigh and roll their eyes while looking at their watches the whole time when they get gigs like that. And guess what? They have a crummy time and are as unhappy to be there as Mixerman is. But when I get one of those type gigs ( I need the money) I play just as hard as when I'm playing with top guys 'cause sometimes it will lift their standard of playing above what it normally is. People who aren't as good as you often know it and if they see you're accepting them as they are and enjoying whatever it is that they manage to do passibly well, they'll perk up and play better and try to be inspired by you. And I always have a good time even in those gigs because of that.
People of limited ability can't help it...they're just not very good. But they love it like I do and who am I to look down on them and call them names because they aren't as good as I would like. As for the idea that all that matters is record sales or such....there are still those of us who don't put material things ahead of people. I don't give a fuck who someone is.....if he's a prick to me I'm gonna shove something up his ass.
 
Amen, good Lt. Well spoken. If somebody is giving their all and sticking with the plan, you don't step on them. However, there are also certain standards of professionalism and if you are surrounded by people ACTING in an unprofessional manner, I think you have a right to set them straight. Especially if it puts you in jeopardy.

I once did a small tour and the bandleader hired a 16 year old fiddle player for the show. His chops were amazing--virtuoso caliber, I'd say. As far as performing and getting the job done he was a royal pain. While everyone else was trying to get the soundcheck together, he played non-stop, oblivious to everything around him. This got very aggrivating after a short while. When a singer we were to back up on one gig showed for a late rehearsal 15 minutes before curtain, he wanted us to change the key of her song because "it would be better for the fiddle". After the first gig, I took this kid aside and let him have it. I told him that what he was doing was very disruptive to the group and to start learning some courtesy.

By the end of the tour, he was with the program and did a great job. He still calls me to this day because I was straight with him.

So mixerman has the drummer running around the studio naked among other things. If I was him, I'd expect these guys to either be working on their music or keeping out of the way. If I was him, I'd talk to each guy separately and communicate what I expected of them so I could get the most out of them as artists. Sounds like some of the band know the ropes but others don't. Despite the fact that they might have company money behind them, if they don't get a grip on what the studio is about, this will be their last record.

So, should a pro engineer become a teacher to his clients? If it was me, I'd do it in a heartbeat--with the express purpose of helping them, thus helping my own rep in the long run. Perhaps he will or maybe he feels like he's stepping out of rank by doing something like that. I don't know what the politics of the situation are, so its hard to judge.

Anyway, I think knowledge is power, but its also about empowering others with that knowledge. Right now, the inmates are running the asylum and thats gonna have to change somewhere down the line. Conversely, if mixerman is putting a bad attitude into the session, somebody should correct him too. I'm not there--I can't see the whole scenario, so who knows?

My thoughts for the eve. bedtime.

I have a feeling that all this stuff may get worked out naturally as the sessions proceed.
 
Many folks are taking themselves a bit too seriously with all this talk of Mixerman's negativity. They're his thoughts and his reality. Plus, if you're good at something (e.g. recording and mixing) you want to do that thing. Even if you're getting paid lots of money, if you love something you want to actually be able to "do" that thing. Perhaps many of you guys have forgotten while you were dwelling on MM's negativity, but he's been holed up in a studio for a week doing almost "nothing." Paid or no pay, that's a supreme waste of time and not his "goal."
 
That is an incredibly entertaining thread, though I have to say that many of chessrock's comments went through my head at the same time. This guy sounds like he's constantly at the brink of a nervous breakdown, but I really think that that's just a funny angle for his journals. You see many comedians acting all pissed off and angry (Lewis Black, Dennis Miller anyone?) because it draws the audience in and creates quick laughs.

On the other hand, what did he REALLY gain from tearing the nephew a new one well before real production started? Or ripping on the drummer? Was it really too much of the producer to ask him to spend another day or two tweaking the drum sounds for a multimillion dollar album? Well, the fact that I'm asking the questions goes to show what a great job Mixman's done with the journal, at least!
 
I think it's in most people's nature to be helpful and nurturing if they feel their knowledge and expertise is being respected and appreciated. I get the feeling that the lack of respect and the unprofessional approach of everyone surrounding MM's session is what irks him the most.

Whenever someone is forced to deal with MY own lack of ability (in ANY of life's little learning situations) I hope they at least get the impression that I am TRYING, LISTENING and trying to stay out of the way. That attitude goes a long way. People pick up on it and discover their own generous spirits and go out of their way to help and work with you.

Since MM has no ally around him in his working environment, he is venting and essentially thinking aloud with this journal. I think if most of us would own up to it, some pretty nasty (and friggin' hilarious) stuff would come out of our mouths if we thought aloud. And if most people could actually hear and respond to their own thoughts, they would probably be better communicators and better people.

Anyway, this continues to be an amazing story and I absolutely love every word of it. Rock on MixerMan!!!!
 
Yay!!!!!! Three cheers for mixerman............he gains a major ally in me when he notices that digitizing things can degrade the sound. I'm so pleased to hear someone else say that.

Also, that razor editing thing is pretty damned impressive. I can't imagine having to do that much chopping.
 
Wow, thanks Harvey for pointing this out. I read the whole Mixerman diary late last night and can't wait to read the next installment. I think Mixerman is a damn fine writer, too.
 
I take it mixerman is finding reference beats that match the music and then moving parts between these reference points to be in sync.

Is he working on indivual sound tracks? i.e kick, then snare then cymbals. I assume those drum mics are heavily gated to reduce bleed and allow such intensive hand editing.
 
I love fishing, but I would never consider doing it for a living. Same goes for scuba diving. A good way to ruin the things you love in life is to turn them into your daily grind. This sounds like the case here, and I sympothize with Mixerman for the damage these sessions are doing to the long term health of his career physche. He sounds dangerously close to burn out.
A couple of things strike me. I don't recall the music style being mentioned, I'm guessing it's rock (whatever that is). I'm suprised that with neither the producer or the engineer being remotely passionate about this project that such lengths are being taken to avoid digital editing, givin the amount of editing required. This band doesn't sound like fodder for an audiophile record. Also, what's the difference between editing visually with the time grid on a digital editor, and editing visually with the time marks on a 2x4?
Last comment on this very entertaining and educational story, and the ensuing thread....I completely reject the notion that being great at whatever one does in life gives some sort of liscence to be an a-hole, not that I'm calling Mixerman one. The modest amount of involvement that I've had with the music industry over the years has revealed a disproportionate amount of a-holes in said industry. I was disappointed to hear Mixerman constantly refer to the drummer as dumb ass, rather than cotton, which reveals him as an engineer who should plan a vacation..... soon, and in the mean time should push faders, and let the producer interact with the band. Otherwise he wasted his time creating the "Vibe", as his every word destroys it.
Just my opinion, RD
 
I hadn't planned to do anything more than point people to this amazing thread, but I think some clarification is called for.

In the movie world, Willie Show's role would be the director of the movie, Mixerman is the cameraman, Lance is the assistant to the cameraman, and DumbAss and the rest of the band are actors in the movie.

Now, first day, Mixerman walks in and the "Director" is not there, but Mixerman sets up for the first scene, which will feature Dumb Ass walking across in front of the camera.

Mixerman sets up camera, peers thru the lens, and discovers that Dumb Ass is standing in front of camera, blocking the shot. He tells DA please do not ever stand in front of the camera if you see me in back of the camera, unless I tell you different.

After camera is set up, he asks DA to run thru the first scene (where DA is supposed to walk slowly past the camera). DA walks to the leading edge of the frame and stops. Why did you stop? Oh, did you want me to keep going? Yes.

He walks 1/2 way thru and stops. I thought you wanted me to stop. Keep going till I tell you to stop. Can we please start over? This time DA RUNS across the camera position. Can we do it like you're gonna do it in the movie? It doesn't say anything about you running. Oh, Ok.

Now 5 days later, the movie director still hasn't shown up for this big budget picture. Should the cameraman start directing the movie? I believe that's what some of you suggested. You were hired to operate the camera, not direct the movie.

If the director asks you about a particular actor's ability, you have a decision to make about being honest, being diplomatic, or risking your career on being candid.

Mixerman is the "cameraman" on this epic. He might be the director on another film or he might be the film editor on a different film, but right now, he's the cameraman, and he has a set of rules which he must follow.
 
Just read today's installment and I'm feeling really bad for Mixerman now. If you understand that he's editing little chunks out of a 2" master tape and moving them around to make the drums play in time, you quickly realize the magnitude of difficulty this task presents. Not only that, but the producer doesn't want him to dump it all to digital, which would maker life much easier.

Considering that the drummer probably won't get any better, and that there are probably ten more songs waiting ahead, Mixerman's glorious high end engineering position doesn't look so enviable right now.

So, will Alsihad come into the picture before its all over? Will Mixerman stick it out? Will the band stay intact to the end of the session? I can hardly wait to read more. This is an incredible article!
 
bidding war

I am F----g AMAZED they paid $2,000,000 bidding for this band. Against who? And who were had thier contract in the first place. I think the seller knew the same thing the ceo of enron knew. And they didn't even hear this drummer before starting the sessions? Holy s---t! Who's running that studio? That like buying a studio before even hearing the rooms. Of course they have money to burn, at the price they charge for CD's these days, and, they can write it off to us taxpayers if it fails. Or be another Enron. My 2 cents. Still funny though.
fitz
 
I have a hard time believing anybody would tell MM to spend hours on end making 188 edits on 2" tape. Seems like it'd be a lot simpler to find a drummer who can play right.
 
Harvey - excellent simile.......puts it well in perspective. I think that most engineers at the project studio level are accustomed to often wearing two hats, engineer and producer. At this level though, there is supposed to be a clear delineation between these roles. Of course that delineation is a lot clearer when the producer actually shows up, and sticks around.
RD
 
More Praise for Harvey? This is getting embarrassing!

Nice analogy Harvey. It's important to remember how much MM is at the mercy of his cohorts. Thanks again and ROCK ON!
 
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