Brazilian Cançao

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Cançao

Is the delay on the right guitar too over the top? Maybe the two gtrs need to be panned closer together for the effect to work. Let me know what you think.

It's an arr by Yvon Rivoal... just a simple thing really. It's part of a set of Latin Amer duets I use sometimes in my teaching. I like the descending chromatic bit and the contrasting groupings of eighths between the two gtrs. FWIW, here's a bit of the print music.

Tim
 
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Sweet track. I think it sounds great. The delay is hardly noticeable till you turn it up. Just saying that on an average blaster or home stereo bookshelf speakers it would be fine. At louder volumes it adds a nice depth. I have to say again your technique is excellent. I hear too many guitarists(including myself) trying to play pieces that are beyond their natural playing ability. It's good to hear a piece that is played well and clean. Instead of a difficult piece played half heartedly. Very enjoyable.
 
Tim, sounds very cool. The delay on the guitar does not stand out, so I don't feel it's over the top, myself. And I agree with what hueseph says...you are the man... :D

I think the panning gives it a real 2 guitar feel...like 2 people playing at the same time. I don't know if this is what you wanted, but sounds prety nice with this piece. How does it sound panned closer? Does it sound a bit bunched up? I think that might convolute the piece, but it also might sound cool. Do you have that version so we can listen, and compare? I'd like to hear it if you do, just to see what my ears can pick up on.
Thanks Tim.
Ed
 
Just to confuse things, I am going to slightly disagree with hueseph and Dogman (not about the playing and recording, which are excellent of course). Listening to it on my Genelec monitors, the panning feels too extreme, although naturally this perception was lessened when I increased the volume. If I close my eyes there is nothing at all in the centre - if I were listening to two guitarists in a room I don't think L and R would be so far apart.

All this is very much IMHO of course - just giving a view :)
 
Hi

Very nice playing. I agree with Gary Sharp, the hard panning rigth and left seems to be too extreme. Playing with N-track and listening with my headphones, the best results I have is with a panning at 45% (just a little less than 3 and 9 o'clock). But I'm not an expert.

Nice work.

/Jack Real
 
As always, Tim, this is sweetly played and sounds rich and clean.

The delay is not over the top to me, and I can be sensitive to such things most of the time. Like hueseph said, I didn't notice the delay until I really turned up the volume.

I think possibly that the panning is a little to extreme as well. The R guit is more sparse than the constantness (is that a word?) of the L guit. So at times it seems like the whole piece is coming from the Left speaker only (or mostly).

But on the other hand, it reminds me of that awesome 3 guitar player live record. I don't remember what it was called, and I don't know how to spell their names correctly. McLaughlin? Demiola. The other was Paco something? Delucia or something. I hope you know what I am referring to.

Anyway, that record had two of them playing at a time and they panned it pretty hard and told you which player was in which speaker so you could follow along. Amazing stuff.

Someday I would love to have a Timothy Lawler CD to call my own. (my own copy, that is!)
 
Incanus said:
Someday I would love to have a Timothy Lawler CD to call my own. (my own copy, that is!)

Yeah, but he has to change his name to DeathHellSpawnOfSatanMetalMonster or something like that :D
 
Tim, beautiful stuff as always.
I was going to agree with a couple of these guys about the panning.....but then again... I think that it adds a certain sort of intimacy to each respective guitar, if that makes any sense. It sort of pulls my attention one way then the other which somehow adds it's own point of interest to this recording.....
I don't know if my comments make any sense.
Great stuff anyways! Another Lawler track to add to my archive! ;)
 
First off, sounds great, great playing - as always.

I have to agree though, that it does sound a bit odd being panned so far apart.

Other than that, it's GREAT. :D
 
I have just been thinkng about this. I think it would be very interesting to bring the two tracks more to the centre - one a little more than the other - then use some very delicate reverb to recreate a live room effect. Left channel reverb return on the Right panned guitar delayed by about 10ms (=10 feet) and so on. There is great potential for some psychoacoustics on this track, it's fascinating.
 
This is a very smooth, warm sound Tim. After listening to it on both my monitors and my headphones, I think the guitars could be panned in a bit more, especially the right guitar track. Another suggestion I have is to "wetten" the reverb a bit more so it sounds further back. I hear that in a lot of classical recordings.

Keep up the beautiful classical guitar music!
 
Hueseph said:
Instead of a difficult piece played half heartedly
Thank you hueseph. That phrase is well crafted and holds a musical secret, I think. The word “difficult” so often seems to be used to mean technically or musically complex, but IMO it has to do more with the performer’s level of ease in handling that complexity. Anyway, it’s an issue that as a teacher I think about a lot so I appreciated your comment.

Dogman said:
How does it sound panned closer? Does it sound a bit bunched up?
Yes that’s how it sounded to me when panned closer. I probably should have used different gtrs for the parts for differentiation in a realistic soundstage. But I’m going to experiment with the panning a bit and see how it might work with them a little closer in. Thanks Ed.

Garry said:
I think it would be very interesting to bring the two tracks more to the centre - one a little more than the other - then use some very delicate reverb to recreate a live room effect. Left channel reverb return on the Right panned guitar delayed by about 10ms (=10 feet) and so on. There is great potential for some psychoacoustics on this track
Interesting… more things to try out tomorrow. Thanks Garry for the careful listening and thoughtful ideas.

Jack said:
Playing with N-track and listening with my headphones, the best results I have is with a panning at 45%
Jack thanks… you’re right at where my panning taste usually is… around 10 and 2 o’clock are what I usually like for duets. Something about the low end of these tracks tended to build up more than usual when both were closer to the middle – maybe it was the gobos I was using to reduce reflections. Or maybe it was just my ear last night, heh-heh. That’s why more ears are better. :)

Incanus said:
The R guit is more sparse than the constantness (is that a word?) of the L guit. So at times it seems like the whole piece is coming from the Left speaker only (or mostly).
YES! That’s one of the difficult issues with duets like this where one gtr comes and goes while the other stays, and “constantness” is the perfect word. Valuable advice. Thanks, wise Wizard. BTW if you PM me, I'll be happy to send you one of my CDs. A second BTW: A Friday Night in San Francisco is one of my all time favorite albums.

Metalhead said:
it adds a certain sort of intimacy to each respective guitar, if that makes any sense. It sort of pulls my attention one way then the other which somehow adds it's own point of interest
Along with the low end issue, that was one of my thoughts in keeping the parts farther apart. Things sound so detailed when they’re separated… Thanks for the perspective metalhead.

NL5 thanks for the listen and comments.

I’m going to do work on a narrower mix and post it tomorrow. Thanks, my friends, for the objective ears.

EDIT: FattMusiek, you must have posted as I was writing... The reverb idea's one I'll try. There was almost none on it so far (not counting the delay)... Putting the gtrs closer and creating a nice room for them with a bit of verb might be just what it needs. Thanks Matt.

Tim
 
just on the panning issue, I think that maybe a slight small room reverb shared between the guitars would probably bring the mix together a bit more without cluttering it. Just a thought.
 
Tim, could you pan it a bit closer...I don't know how far this is apart, but reduce the spread a bit, and let us listen. Just for some fun, and comments. Don't change anything else, just cut the spread. If you have thes spreada at say 75%, maybe cut it down to 40-50% for each track, and let us have a go?
Ed
 
Dogman and hueseph, I'll try your ideas re panning and reverb and post a new version (or two) tomorrow. Thanks.

Tim
 
I've listened to this six or so times, and am listening as I write this.


Tim, I want to comment again on your nice sense of the elasticity of time.

I think the delay detracts somewhat from the piece, in the most subtle of ways; I think what might sound melancholy sounds simply sweet instead.

This is a great recording, very intimate and beautiful rich tone. I think you were able to get across what a beautiful sounding guitar you have there.

You are a very accomplished player - thanks for posting your music here, and for taking the time to share your thoughts with others here.

-Casey
 
the delay detracts somewhat from the piece, in the most subtle of ways
Thanks Casey. :o
Re the delay... I'll be working on it later today and the input helps. After this much mixing (in general) I know that on day 2 of working on any mix I without fail want to cut in half any rev/delay effects that sounded so sweet on day 1. But I still haven't gotten sophisticated enough to avoid the excess sugar coating on day 1, heh-heh. :D

Tim
 
Thanks guys for the hard listening and helpful suggestions. I've thought about them and done the following mixes. Also, FWIW, I've put up the raw tracks.

I guess I'm going overboard with the mixing considering that it's just a little ditty. But since this kind of thing makes me crazy when I'm mixing in general (dealing with endless choices), I'm just sharing my angst, heh-heh. My multitrack software uses panning increments in 64ths, hence the odd %'s and the clock approximations.

Original posted version: panning 65% (approx 8 and 4 o'clock)

Ver. 2: Panning 22% (a little farther out than 11 and 1 o'clock). Reduced delay on R gtr, still none on L gtr. 3% increase in reverb wet balance. Pls excuse the unedited beginning and end.

Ver. 3: Panning 36% (approx 10 and 2 o'clock). Otherwise same as ver. 2. I think this version has just the right separation between the gtrs.

Raw tracks: hard panned, no processing, just for comparison.

Tim
 
Hey, nice playing! I listened to the three versions and I prefered ver.3. Ver.2 sounds good, but maybe a little too close together. It sounded good, but I just prefer more of the stero effect 3 has.
 
I just listened to the version on your first post Tim, and I very much like the panning difference of the guitars. It is like a mellow flowing duel of the smoothest kind. I could run the bath, slide into a tub of bubbles,closing my eyes, opening my mind, and go wherever this piece takes me. Thanks Tim. :)
 
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