Ampex AG-440B-8 Story...

[Echoplex]

That small cap on the octal is only needed if using the plug-in mic tranny's...I was advised to remove that if I'm not going to use those, but no harm in replacing it either.

I would wager very little difference in sound quality between the 440C and the 1200...electronics are very similar and same head design.

The 440-8 is a bit of a tower isn't it?

Just check the schematic for the C electronics to ID what that cap by the meter is...I think it is just a difference between the original 440 "A" and B electronics and the C...I'm pretty sure the output coupling cap behind the card cage is the same on both...it is a 500/50V...it is a critical audio path cap. Steve Puntillilo of Sonicraft commented that it was like "taking a blanket off" his mixes when he swapped those out.

Yes, the 1100/1200 was designed from the ground up for 2" tape...the 440 was never designed for even 1" tape. The 1200 is in a legendary class. The only issues I've heard with the 1100/1200 tape path is that there is a significant amount of unsupported tape and a high summed wrap angle so flutter was a "problem" but that was in head-to-head comparison with an 1100 and a 3M M56 which has, like, the shortest amount of unsupported tape and lowest wrap angle of any transport, and I understand the M56 transport design had issues with tape stretch and breakage...not abounding but it was of some concern at some point. The 1100 was bare bones IIRC...no meters and no flutter filters. The 1200 managed flutter with the two flutter filters and you can get a rolling guide kit too which greatly reduces the wrap angle, though it is something like $200 per guide or maybe that's for the whole kit, but it is certifiable quality. And the reality is that all this is severe hair-splitting...the flutter specs are amazing off a stock unit. Its just that the M56 has amazing-amazing flutter specs and whether or not a human can hear the difference is highly debatable. I know I can't, and if somebody wanted to give me my choice of an M56 or an MM-1200 I'd take the 1200 because I have more familiarity with the Ampex products, and I like 'em!

In my schematic do you mean C6 Fixed cap 250mfd, 50v with the 220ohm resistor...the output tranny T1 is right next to it...

if thats what you refer to yes I replaced it with I think a 470mfd 50v cap...

 

[sweetbeats]

C6...yah that's the one...C15 on the B electronics. Sorry...got the values mixed up with something else. I'm replacing mine with a 470uF/63V Nichicon PW...

BTW, I am going to be recapping every electrolytic outside of the electronics modules, so, like you, the transport control box, back-tension delay box etc.

 

[JRSIV]

Echo, those are the most beautifully restored Ampex machines I've ever seen! Simply outstanding man. Clean as Skeeter's peeter, and the cabling job is unreal. You definitely have the 'Home Studio OCD' that we all have. I've been staring at the 8 track for 15 minutes....so cool!!! It's got to sound excellent as well. Welcome and if you've got some stuff for us to listen to that was recorded on these I know I'm not the only one who'd appreciate it. Thanks 'Plex.

 

[SteveM]

Niiiiice.

 

[Echoplex]

C6...yah that's the one...C15 on the B electronics. Sorry...got the values mixed up with something else. I'm replacing mine with a 470uF/63V Nichicon PW...

BTW, I am going to be recapping every electrolytic outside of the electronics modules, so, like you, the transport control box, back-tension delay box etc.

yes thats it...I personally did not notice a big difference YMMV. I think for me it was all just piece of mind. Knowing that cap failure is something I can rule out most likely in case of some other failures. The transport re-capping was perhaps overkill and DAMN tedious (it's tight in there) but it's done save those multi-section cans in the channel electronics. Someone talked me out of doing those saying they are not as critical, and unless the deck was kept in the desert for a long time they should be fine.

I had a couple resistors smoke last year on repro card for some reason and the meter light resistors have smoked on me a time or two. Also had some issue with one of the motors not wanting energize fully way back. That drove me nuts but somehow I got it taken care of, cant remember how though...perhaps a bad relay or motor cap. They can stick sometimes. I tell ya those brakes make me nervous with asbestos. I use them as little as possible.

I have had this 8trk since 1997 and the 1/2" since around 1992. My first tape machine was a Quarter Track Pioneer and then an Otari 1/2" 8 MX5050 (dont miss those decks).

 

[Echoplex]

Echo, those are the most beautifully restored Ampex machines I've ever seen! Simply outstanding man. Clean as Skeeter's peeter, and the cabling job is unreal. You definitely have the 'Home Studio OCD' that we all have. I've been staring at the 8 track for 15 minutes....so cool!!! It's got to sound excellent as well. Welcome and if you've got some stuff for us to listen to that was recorded on these I know I'm not the only one who'd appreciate it. Thanks 'Plex.

John---> Thanks for the words. I took a listen too your clips. Rare is it that I like something these days. I liked your production and arrangements. You did alot with what you have. Nice work and word play on Epiphaney!

Ok here is a clip off the 8trk...I do not have a full WAVE file example on this laptop, just an MP3 which kinda takes bite out of the low end high end definition as you guys know. You can get an idea what the deck sounds like used live on an improvised section in a 3 piece power trio format.

click link and fill in 4 letter code and then choose "free download" it may take a few seconds...
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=TF28YNUH


5 tracks for drums
1 for Bass
1 for guitar
1 vocal


Pre's were Neve type 1272's, AP1 type 512, Ampex 350 tube, Millenia.
Mic's Re20/ 70's Neumann U87, Josephson C42's, Royer 121. Beyer M160
Shure 545.

 

[ofajen]

RE: 1200 decks. Well the other level for me would be 16trk's instead of 8 and a counter combined with a more robust and refined transport. Ideally I would use 11-12 tracks at once since I do live recording 99% of the time in my studio. I also like the idea of a more compact deck. The 440c 8 is huge (tall refrigerator) and 1200 is more like washing machine (box).

I have to say those are beautiful machines, Echo!

I agree about the desire for compactness and the utility of about 12 tracks. At present, I'm mainly using my Yamaha standalone which can do 16 tracks (really 12 tracks: 8 mono and 4 stereo) which is just about right. I have the M-23 up and going as the mix deck. The Yamaha is -10 dBV out, so it's a bit weak to feed the M-23. I'm trying out some step up transformers I just wired up for bumping the levels. It gets the levels right, but the load on the Yamaha is pretty low. If that causes problems in terms of loading the Yamaha outputs, I'll go ahead and get a bump box.

I also tend to agree about the AG-440, in terms of the transport being fairly primitive and not particularly gentle to the tape. However, for recording in the studio, and with relatively low track count and little over-dubbing, those issues aren't such a big deal, and I'm sure you are getting a great tone!

Anyway, welcome and thanks for sharing about your excellent machines!

Cheers,

Otto

 

[SteveM]

Ok here is a clip off the 8trk...I do not have a full WAVE file example on this laptop, just an MP3 which kinda takes bite out of the low end high end definition as you guys know. You can get an idea what the deck sounds like used live on an improvised section in a 3 piece power trio format.

click link and fill in 4 letter code and then choose "free download" it may take a few seconds...
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=TF28YNUH


5 tracks for drums
1 for Bass
1 for guitar
1 vocal


Pre's were Neve type 1272's, AP1 type 512, Ampex 350 tube, Millenia.
Mic's Re20/ 70's Neumann U87, Josephson C42's, Royer 121. Beyer M160
Shure 545.

Haha! That's great Echo, even on an MP3. I've wanted one of those Ampex decks for a while now. Thanks for putting that up.

 

[Echoplex]

Haha! That's great Echo, even on an MP3. I've wanted one of those Ampex decks for a while now. Thanks for putting that up.

My pleasure Steve...thanks for checking it out.

 

[JRSIV]

John---> Thanks for the words. I took a listen too your clips. Rare is it that I like something these days. I liked your production and arrangements. You did alot with what you have. Nice work and word play on Epiphaney!

Ok here is a clip off the 8trk...I do not have a full WAVE file example on this laptop, just an MP3 which kinda takes bite out of the low end high end definition as you guys know. You can get an idea what the deck sounds like used live on an improvised section in a 3 piece power trio format.

click link and fill in 4 letter code and then choose "free download" it may take a few seconds...
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=TF28YNUH


5 tracks for drums
1 for Bass
1 for guitar
1 vocal


Pre's were Neve type 1272's, AP1 type 512, Ampex 350 tube, Millenia.
Mic's Re20/ 70's Neumann U87, Josephson C42's, Royer 121. Beyer M160
Shure 545.

Thanks for the kind words Echo. My setup is for songwriting demos but I think even if it's a demo and you're recording on a PortaStudio you should make the recording as good and as interesting as you can. I love being challenged to make a good sound with what you have, no matter how old or small. It's a trait I think that gets lost today when you can start a computer program and have pristine sounds, endless track counts and a myriad of options for editing. If you have that capability then you really have to put out good stuff IMO. You should have no excuses except laziness or lack of talent.

Off the soapbox, "Yasgurs Farm" burned! The guitar sound was so "Pagey" and the bass, even on the MP3, was round and punchy. Drums were panned so sweet and the whole thing reaked of "analogness". Very cool indeed.

You've got such a smooth and tasty signal path too! A U87 (made in the '70's no less) into a 1272 and tracked with an Ampex 8 track that clean?! Dude, you could record someone barfing up their supper and it would sound good...

 

[sweetbeats]

I read up somewhere regarding the asbestos brakes on the older decks and it is really a non-issue...I think when compared to other things in the environment it was a low-risk thing that has been hyped...think of all the cars running about with asbestos brake linings...the real dengers of asbestos come from frequent and prolonged exposure to the fibrous-type insulating material, not the material used in brake linings IIRC. Hey, even consuming water can kill you in large quantities...

 

[sweetbeats]

I'm about to listen to the sound sample, echo, but I'm taking it with a grain of salt because your pre's and mics are WAYYY out of my league...

 

[sweetbeats]

Oooof...

Okay...

1. is the reverb natural or supplied via an effect box and if so what is it?
2. How was the drumkit mic'ed?
3. What did you use for summing?

It sounds like I expected...the wide format stuff seems to have this really wide field and doesn't cripple the bite and attack of stuff like digital...the transients...I KNOW those pre's and mics and of course the engineering have tons to do with how it sounds but the 440 was able to capture it and its still unmistakeably there after A/D conversion and mp3 compression.

Just fantastic.

Thanks for putting that up.

 

[Echoplex]

Oooof...

Okay...

1. is the reverb natural or supplied via an effect box and if so what is it?
2. How was the drumkit mic'ed?
3. What did you use for summing?

It sounds like I expected...the wide format stuff seems to have this really wide field and doesn't cripple the bite and attack of stuff like digital...the transients...I KNOW those pre's and mics and of course the engineering have tons to do with how it sounds but the 440 was able to capture it and its still unmistakeably there after A/D conversion and mp3 compression.

Just fantastic.

Thanks for putting that up.

Glad you liked it sweetbeat. I should try and post the WAVE verison which I will directly.

So answers to your query:

The mic's from memory (last winter) are my 1970 U87 on the bass drum 8-12" out. RE20 on beater side. Josephson C42's for overheads, Shure on the toms and snare hi-hat. 70's Vistalite Ludwig set (amber) 14x26" bass drum, 14x10 tom, 16x16 tom, supro snare, Giant Beat 60's cymbals.

The ambience is part room 650 + sq' high ceilings and part UAD Plate 140.

Summing was ITB. I basically track on the Ampex 440-8 which is feed by various outboard discrete pre's, then transfer through Lynx Mastering converter at 24/96 then mix on Cubase. I use little to no plugs. Some EQ on the bass and kick. UAD 140 honestly sounds very good to me. Outboard Aphex Comp in the rack for bass, 1971 Eventide Phaser for drum cymbal phasing.

I have been trying to locate a EMT plate but no luck so far. As for summing I have tried both ways and OTB summing has not made me feel like it's a must have. That's just me.

 

[Echoplex]

Off the soapbox, "Yasgurs Farm" burned! The guitar sound was so "Pagey" and the bass, even on the MP3, was round and punchy. Drums were panned so sweet and the whole thing reaked of "analogness". Very cool indeed.

You've got such a smooth and tasty signal path too! A U87 (made in the '70's no less) into a 1272 and tracked with an Ampex 8 track that clean?! Dude, you could record someone barfing up their supper and it would sound good

Kind words...thanks so much. I really try and keep the signal path simple, high quality with no mess. I REALLY dont like a lot of bells and whistle's. Kis program...keep it simple!

 

[sweetbeats]

Hey, John, I have to say too I just listened to your material at Soundclick and I really liked every single song. Like echo said the arrangements are refreshing and the texture of the instrumentation is just great. Really enjoyed them.

echo, I KNEW IT!!! I just knew that was a 26" kick...total Bonham sound for sure. Vistalite kits have such a distinctive sound.

And real plate......&sigh*...I love real plate reverb...actually most ANY analog reverb is preferable to my ears...I'm happy with my Tascam quad spring reverb and I haven't room for much more...even if I could find/afford/needed a true plate it would have to be the size of a dinner plate!

Thanks for the info. Very helpful.

 

[JRSIV]

Hey, John, I have to say too I just listened to your material at Soundclick and I really liked every single song. Like echo said the arrangements are refreshing and the texture of the instrumentation is just great. Really enjoyed them.

echo, I KNEW IT!!! I just knew that was a 26" kick...total Bonham sound for sure. Vistalite kits have such a distinctive sound.

And real plate......&sigh*...I love real plate reverb...actually most ANY analog reverb is preferable to my ears...I'm happy with my Tascam quad spring reverb and I haven't room for much more...even if I could find/afford/needed a true plate it would have to be the size of a dinner plate!

Thanks for the info. Very helpful.

Wow, Thanks Cory. That means alot from you. I always get looks nowadays when I tell people that I recorded most of my stuff on a Tascam 488mkII with minimal mics and processors. But I dig writing on the machine and it's become part of the process....Updating as we speak to a hybrid analog/digital setup so we'll see what comes from that.

And you're right on about real plate and other analog reverbs. Most of us have to make do with digital hardware or software reverb but a plate or real echo chamber is just outta sight. Any recording that has analog reverbs sounds just that much better.

The chamber reverb at Abbey Road is legendary; I remember seeing a documentary on Sgt. Pepper and seeing pictures of the drain pipes and tiled walls in the chamber. Listen to the reverb on Ringo's vocal on "With A Little Help From My Friends"; no digital reverb can do that!

 

[Echoplex]

Hey, John, I have to say too I just listened to your material at Soundclick and I really liked every single song. Like echo said the arrangements are refreshing and the texture of the instrumentation is just great. Really enjoyed them.

echo, I KNEW IT!!! I just knew that was a 26" kick...total Bonham sound for sure. Vistalite kits have such a distinctive sound.

And real plate......&sigh*...I love real plate reverb...actually most ANY analog reverb is preferable to my ears...I'm happy with my Tascam quad spring reverb and I haven't room for much more...even if I could find/afford/needed a true plate it would have to be the size of a dinner plate!

Thanks for the info. Very helpful.

Yes the Vistas are louder and my favorite drum set out of all the ones I have used. The 26" adds something that 22-24" sizes do not have.

 

[sweetbeats]

Wow...I was just skimming over this thread. Haven't looked at it in awhile since the 440-8 project was discontinued as a result of parting it out. I visited the thread to try and figure out where some pictures were stored on my ftp site...wanted them for before and after reference. Just finished rebuilding the capstan motor to sell and I wanted to look at the "before" pictures...couldn't find them via ftp so I came here.

Thoughts as I reflect:

• I will NEVER buy another rare vintage tape machine that has been scaveneged for parts with the intent to resurrect it, unless I already have what's basically needed to bring it back.
• I didn't realize what I was getting myself into though people warned me. Not a lot of 440-8's so if you find yourself thinking "oh it can't be THAT hard...", well, yes and no. It is either hard or really expensive to track down rare missing stuff...or both...usually both.
• In the first post I said "Its pretty straight"...I was apparently seeing it through rose colored glasses. When I look at it now what I see is a dirty, abused and neglected beast of a machine missing critical parts. Not worth what I paid for it.

Many parts of the 440-8 have been sold or are being used for various things here. The 440-8 has provided many parts for the MM-1000 8 to 16-track conversion project presently in the works (8 electronics modules mainly); parts for the 440C halftrack project (reel motors with cool instrumentation reel adapters, electronics risers for the console, console "belly pan")...In the end I think I will have gotten at least 3/4 of my money back out of it plus the parts listed above (and some others), and the 440-8 was my gateway into the world of vintage Ampex. No regrets...it was a tremendous education and it was worth something because it gave me a HUGE leg-up with regard to the MM-1000 and just knowing my way around a 440-era Ampex machine in general.

So the capstan motor is the next to go.

Nose bushing oiled; new tail bearing; casptan shaft dressed; thorough cleaning throughout...

 

[SteveM]

I'd like to get an 8, but I wouldn't step into it unless I knew I was getting everything in one stop.

A couple questions. Are the 8 transports hard to find? Could I make an 8 track using my 4 A electronics if I got 4 more and the transport?

I noticed someone on the list had special 1/2" 8 track heads made for their 440 by John French. I wonder if that's still an option.