miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Nope...no "wheel reinvention" at all.
Anhydrous Isopropyl has been one of the most recommended 1st choice cleaners for tape heads/transport in just about every piece of info I've ever seen or tape deck manuals I've read in the last 30 years, not to mention, gotten from direct communication with manufacturers like TASCAM and Fostex when thy still use to make tape decks.
As I already mentioned (as evidence), many of these prosumer level decks do have plastic components in and around the head/transport area.
Acetone/Ketone is found in quantities of 10% or possibly more in some denatured alcohol blends. (more evidence)
I provided a copy of the MSDS sheet for the denatured alcohol that you found at Lowe's....and that stuff HAS it. (more evidence)
There are many "blends" of denatured alcohol, and the content in denatured alcohol is not comprised of a single chemical, like isopropyl alcohol is, so unless you know what's in your batch of denatured alcohol, and what potential damage any one of those chemicals may cause on certain surfaces, yes, there is a risk in using them.....but the bigger risk comes from NOT knowing what you are using, which is what you are so casually and insistently willing to dismiss here, that knowing is not important, just 'cuz "back in the day" you used it on everything without issues.
Who knows what blend of chemicals here in the stuff you used and what is in the variety of denatured alcohol blends that can be found in various outlets. All I've been saying is that it's safer to go with 90+% isopropyl, and much safer to simply avoid the denatured alcohol, unless you want to take the time to read the MSDS sheets and/or the back of the cans and decide if the chemical blend is "safe" or not. You just want everyone to assume that ALL denatured alcohol blends are safe on every/any tape deck head/transport surface....which is rather haphazard, IMO.
I may be over-cautious, but hey, I don't want to ruin something on my tape deck by treating it with some chemical blend that has the potential to melt/dissolve certain plastics.....you on the other hand want to ignore any caution, which is your choice, but why pass that mindset on to others here?
You are obviously familiar with the variety of harsh chemicals that can be used for deck maintenanc, that must be used with some caution...but not everyone here will have that experience....so better safe than sorry.
AFA more "evidence"....ahhh, just look up acetone and you will see that it's clearly stated in the technical info that it CAN MELT CERTAIN TYPES OF PLASTICS.
What other info do you need????
<EDIT>
Here's some more "evidence"....read the whole thread, but read post #5.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=157367
I know that denatured alcohol may only have 10% or so acetone/ketone additives....but tell me, do you really want to take the chance of have that happen to your tape heads like that guy in post #5....or just stick with isopropyl and not risk it?
Oh...and read post #14 if you want some "back in the day" info.
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rayc
retroreprobate
Miro,
that relates to acetone & not acetone as part of something else or as a trace element even.
You're digging deep but the information was a) at least 2nd hand & uncredited and b) just about acetone as a single compound.
I know I can prove the earth is flat and that you're actually an existentialist extrusion if I do a few searches. Remember Wiki is the best example that the internet isn't always reliable. It's references from people we trust that give such things any credibility at all (& even then we know who we know & how much we can trust them).
Metho is pretty good and very cheap.
BECK,
He doesn't respond to me because he thinks I'm Gumby and he wants to prove a point to YOU. It's probably wise that we leave the lists as jousting solo is just another pass in the air.
that relates to acetone & not acetone as part of something else or as a trace element even.
You're digging deep but the information was a) at least 2nd hand & uncredited and b) just about acetone as a single compound.
I know I can prove the earth is flat and that you're actually an existentialist extrusion if I do a few searches. Remember Wiki is the best example that the internet isn't always reliable. It's references from people we trust that give such things any credibility at all (& even then we know who we know & how much we can trust them).
Metho is pretty good and very cheap.
BECK,
He doesn't respond to me because he thinks I'm Gumby and he wants to prove a point to YOU. It's probably wise that we leave the lists as jousting solo is just another pass in the air.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
I'm well aware of that, and I said so at the end of the post that I know denatured alcohol may only contain 10% or so of acetone derivatives.
My point in this thread was to make folks aware of that, and I provided actual documentation showing that denatured alcohol has acetone compounds in it, along with other chemicals, and that not all brands of denatured alcohol blends are 100% the same, they can vary.....so be aware of that and don't just assume it's all "safe" on every surface of your tape decks just because someone said it is.
I still say be cautious, or better yet, use a product that IS 100% safe....like isopropyl alcohol.....or don't.
Tape decks are precious instruments these days, as parts are hard to come by and it's not easy to fix things that fail or go bad, and no one is making new tape decks anymore, so it's more than just about "cleaning" a tape deck, it's also about preservation of the decks for a long future....at least for me it is.
What was "back in the day"...isn't quite the same as it is today.
If you're saying that's not of any concern to you, as it doesn't seem to be for Beck...fine, use it on your tape decks and be happy.
I'll be even happier NOT using anything with any amount of acetone and/or some chemical potpourri on any of my decks.
M
mdainsd
Member
Im not looking to argue. I have a couple of the some of the last designs of the pro analog tape recorders. These in particular are Sony APR-24. Some of the last.
from the manual:
cleaning....tape heads and tape path...moisten with cleaning fluid (wtf is cleaning fluid?) or Methanol (Sony part number blah blah blah).
Again, not arguing one way or another, but it is out there. I also seem to remember in the late sixties cleaning video heads with Freon TF. I wonder if thats correct or Im selectively remembering, LOL
from the manual:
cleaning....tape heads and tape path...moisten with cleaning fluid (wtf is cleaning fluid?) or Methanol (Sony part number blah blah blah).
Again, not arguing one way or another, but it is out there. I also seem to remember in the late sixties cleaning video heads with Freon TF. I wonder if thats correct or Im selectively remembering, LOL
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
I wasn't looking to argue either, rather just to raise awareness to what is often found in denatured alcohol blends.
Nor was I looking to make Beck feel he has to defend to the death the use of denatured alcohol just because that's what he used exclusively back in the day.
I take a lot of what Beck says at face value, because I know he has experience in A/V.
That said, knowing that denatured alcohol isn't a singular, regulated compound from brand to brand, and that some blends have additives with known warnings/concerns, I don't understand why there's such a push-back toward what is a safer cleaning SOP with isopropyl alcohol, and/or my desire to make folks aware of that...?
If people want to make assumptions that 10% acetone as an additive (plus some other chems that might be included) to methylated spirits/ethanol to make "denatured alcohol"....will 100% have no effects on any otheytheir tape deck parts that it come in regular, daily contact with it, with use over time....
.... then just use it, but I see no reason to argue against using isopropyl as a 1st choice daily cleaner in place of denatured alcohol, when it will do as good a job with zero potential concerns. We're not talking about tape deck restoration and/or gunk that's been allowed to build up and dry out and that might require stronger chemicals and efforts to clean.
As another bit of "evidence"....I've seen over on the Tape Project Forum mentioned that denatured alcohol has eaten up the bearings on a Studer deck when it got into the races, but folks here can dismiss that too as nothing much to worry about.....
Nor was I looking to make Beck feel he has to defend to the death the use of denatured alcohol just because that's what he used exclusively back in the day.
I take a lot of what Beck says at face value, because I know he has experience in A/V.
That said, knowing that denatured alcohol isn't a singular, regulated compound from brand to brand, and that some blends have additives with known warnings/concerns, I don't understand why there's such a push-back toward what is a safer cleaning SOP with isopropyl alcohol, and/or my desire to make folks aware of that...?
If people want to make assumptions that 10% acetone as an additive (plus some other chems that might be included) to methylated spirits/ethanol to make "denatured alcohol"....will 100% have no effects on any otheytheir tape deck parts that it come in regular, daily contact with it, with use over time....
.... then just use it, but I see no reason to argue against using isopropyl as a 1st choice daily cleaner in place of denatured alcohol, when it will do as good a job with zero potential concerns. We're not talking about tape deck restoration and/or gunk that's been allowed to build up and dry out and that might require stronger chemicals and efforts to clean.
As another bit of "evidence"....I've seen over on the Tape Project Forum mentioned that denatured alcohol has eaten up the bearings on a Studer deck when it got into the races, but folks here can dismiss that too as nothing much to worry about.....
MagnumPI
New member
what would you guys recommend for cleaning the rubber rollers?
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Water, and some mild dish soap if needed.
That's what Terry's Pinch Rollers recommends:
Terry's Rubber Pinch Rollers & Wheels
I saw that on his site one day, and tried it, and I was surprised at just how easy plain water did the job....I don't think I ever bothered with dish soap, but I clean the roller as soon as I see a little oxide film shadow on the roller....I don't wait until the oxide is heavy and glazed on.
Takes a pinch longer with just water, but it does the job in most cases and for regular maintenance, and is 100% guaranteed not to do any damage to the roller.....not talking about old, gunked up rollers that haven't been cleaned in 20 years.
For reconditioning the roller, I use the TASCAM rubber conditioner....but where I use to use that stuff more often way back in the day when I first started out, I now hardly ever use it. Only after many cleanings, when I notice that there is a glaze starting to form on rubber surface....then I'll lightly and quickly do an application of the rubber conditioner, and make sure I also wipe it dry as quick. You don't want that stuff soaking deep into the rubber, it's just to bring the surface back to a "tacky" state, like new/fresh rubber has.
That's what Terry's Pinch Rollers recommends:
Terry's Rubber Pinch Rollers & Wheels
I saw that on his site one day, and tried it, and I was surprised at just how easy plain water did the job....I don't think I ever bothered with dish soap, but I clean the roller as soon as I see a little oxide film shadow on the roller....I don't wait until the oxide is heavy and glazed on.
Takes a pinch longer with just water, but it does the job in most cases and for regular maintenance, and is 100% guaranteed not to do any damage to the roller.....not talking about old, gunked up rollers that haven't been cleaned in 20 years.
For reconditioning the roller, I use the TASCAM rubber conditioner....but where I use to use that stuff more often way back in the day when I first started out, I now hardly ever use it. Only after many cleanings, when I notice that there is a glaze starting to form on rubber surface....then I'll lightly and quickly do an application of the rubber conditioner, and make sure I also wipe it dry as quick. You don't want that stuff soaking deep into the rubber, it's just to bring the surface back to a "tacky" state, like new/fresh rubber has.
rayc
retroreprobate
Mdainsd,
Freon, yeah I remember using it to clean the head drum on a video tape player - spray on & wipe off back in the day when the propellant was maughty as well. Great big drums on great big machines in the very early 80s.
Miro,
You bring up stories that have are just as likely to apocryphal as essentially true or possibly a poor remembrance & they are interesting but I could do the same about spiders exploding from a boil on someone's posterior.
You've made your point that your preference is X and that you have evidence & experience that supports your position. It's your preference. You make a case that you accept the preference of others so long as it is an informed choice and then you bang on about your evidence based position and take a very patronising line that implies that your gear will survive the metho holocaust that takes down the rest of the known yet unknowing/unlistening world.
NO ONE argued against your preference but rather made it clear that there are other choices other folk make happily and based on experience/evidence/manufacturer's directiosn etc.
It's time to dismount from the rocking horse, press record and get on with using the tools rather than being one.
Freon, yeah I remember using it to clean the head drum on a video tape player - spray on & wipe off back in the day when the propellant was maughty as well. Great big drums on great big machines in the very early 80s.
Miro,
You bring up stories that have are just as likely to apocryphal as essentially true or possibly a poor remembrance & they are interesting but I could do the same about spiders exploding from a boil on someone's posterior.
You've made your point that your preference is X and that you have evidence & experience that supports your position. It's your preference. You make a case that you accept the preference of others so long as it is an informed choice and then you bang on about your evidence based position and take a very patronising line that implies that your gear will survive the metho holocaust that takes down the rest of the known yet unknowing/unlistening world.
NO ONE argued against your preference but rather made it clear that there are other choices other folk make happily and based on experience/evidence/manufacturer's directiosn etc.
It's time to dismount from the rocking horse, press record and get on with using the tools rather than being one.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Rayc.....you need to keep up a little better.
Resurrecting a discussion that ended a week ago looks like you are the one who is still on the rocking horse.
Love the whole "metho holocaust" melodramatics....but I never made any such extreme points other than to say cleaners containing acetone need to be used with some caution.
My only "bang on" was toward some of the attitudes that scoffed at the idea anyone should be cautious about using cleaners with acetone in them, or that they should even bother to take the time to read what's in the blend that they are using.
If you (or anyone else) feel being uninformed and incautious is the better choice....go for it.
I've already said a couple of times it's not going to matter to me what anyone uses.
Resurrecting a discussion that ended a week ago looks like you are the one who is still on the rocking horse.
Love the whole "metho holocaust" melodramatics....but I never made any such extreme points other than to say cleaners containing acetone need to be used with some caution.
My only "bang on" was toward some of the attitudes that scoffed at the idea anyone should be cautious about using cleaners with acetone in them, or that they should even bother to take the time to read what's in the blend that they are using.
If you (or anyone else) feel being uninformed and incautious is the better choice....go for it.
I've already said a couple of times it's not going to matter to me what anyone uses.
B
Beck
Guest
Yep, methylated spirits is another name for denatured alcohol that you'll see as an alternative term. Denatured alcohol is typically ethanol made unfit for human consumption by small percentages of methanol and some other common additives as mentioned. Often in manuals you'll see the manufacturer recommend their brand name head cleaner "or denatured alcohol" "or methylated spirits." That gives us the best clue of what's in their branded cleaner, which upon examining the ingredients turns out to be what it is. I've never seen a manual or guide specify any one type of denatured alcohol nor caution caution against any type. The additives are bad for humans and that's what the material data safety sheets are primarily for.
Freon TF would still be my preference if they had not regulated it out of existence for over the counter sales.
I appreciate that, but I'm not even remotely dead.I wasn't looking to argue either, rather just to raise awareness to what is often found in denatured alcohol blends.
Nor was I looking to make Beck feel he has to defend to the death the use of denatured alcohol just because that's what he used exclusively back in the day.
If I’m persistent about topics like this, its because this is where we’re losing analog. It’s not for lack of tape or machines that we see decline, but for lack of informed, experienced technicians and engineers that can bring the knowledge forward into the present and future along with the hardware.
What you’re basically saying is that, armed with a handful of material data safety sheets, you’re here to correct the errors of the past… all those poor souls who used denatured alcohol in thousands of studios all over the world for decades. That’s what I mean by reinventing the wheel. We don’t have to figure this out from scratch, just like we don’t have to figure out any other aspect of recording or equipment maintenance from scratch. We have a long history of convention to reference.
Web forums like these are the only places I see conventional practices become controversial.
B
Beck
Guest
I agree that plain water is good for rubber pinch roller, but I go the little extra and recommend distilled water. Some municipal tap water is very hard; hard enough to leave residue behind over time. I also use Windex on rubber, and then the occasional rubber conditioner every now and then. I still use the TEAC brand, but there are lots of different kinds that are fine. I was using rubber roller cleaner deigned for printer maintenance for a while when I couldn't find the TEAC stuff.
rayc
retroreprobate
This is where the patronising bit comes in:
"If you (or anyone else) feel being uninformed and incautious is the better choice....go for it."
If I've read and understood Tolstoy yet prefer Phantom comics I've made an informed choice.
I'm not uninformed: I'm well informed, if by nothing else then at least by your repetition based lesson.
I'm not incautious: I've considered information and made a choice based on experience and some empirical evidence.
These two things make you assertion imperious, condescending and dismissive.
You don't find me telling you that your choice or personal choice is wrong simply because it diverges from my own.
Perhaps I should find fault with your rubber treatment afterall there's every possibility in the multiverse taht somewhere, someone, (or thing), has dribbled a little bit into a breather hole and the reult was a damaged PCB.
I won't. It would be silly of me.
Expertise is based on education and experience validated by peers.
In this discussion there are two relative "experts" and two divergent opinions.
I've weighed in as a layperson to lend my support to the one I agree with based on the information I've digested and my experience, (which in this instance goes back to 1976). I remain, however, a layman with a layman's bias, a laymans need to recallibrate the information I have in terms of new valid information available. I could be wrong.
Even if I'm wrong the evidence and my experience suggest there'll be no significant negative implication/s for my analogue recording gear.
I appreciate your efforts to elucidate and illuminate the greater unwashed tape heads but...
Climb down and get on mate.
"If you (or anyone else) feel being uninformed and incautious is the better choice....go for it."
If I've read and understood Tolstoy yet prefer Phantom comics I've made an informed choice.
I'm not uninformed: I'm well informed, if by nothing else then at least by your repetition based lesson.
I'm not incautious: I've considered information and made a choice based on experience and some empirical evidence.
These two things make you assertion imperious, condescending and dismissive.
You don't find me telling you that your choice or personal choice is wrong simply because it diverges from my own.
Perhaps I should find fault with your rubber treatment afterall there's every possibility in the multiverse taht somewhere, someone, (or thing), has dribbled a little bit into a breather hole and the reult was a damaged PCB.
I won't. It would be silly of me.
Expertise is based on education and experience validated by peers.
In this discussion there are two relative "experts" and two divergent opinions.
I've weighed in as a layperson to lend my support to the one I agree with based on the information I've digested and my experience, (which in this instance goes back to 1976). I remain, however, a layman with a layman's bias, a laymans need to recallibrate the information I have in terms of new valid information available. I could be wrong.
Even if I'm wrong the evidence and my experience suggest there'll be no significant negative implication/s for my analogue recording gear.
I appreciate your efforts to elucidate and illuminate the greater unwashed tape heads but...
Climb down and get on mate.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Not at all....rather to raise some awareness that may prevent future errors.
You go on the assumption that ALL denatured alcohol from 50 years ago to date, has been exactly the same formulation.
I've already agreed that there may have been more "pure" blends, and I was only pointing out that some blends have acetone which can damage certain plastics and dissolve some binders/glues, and I showed a few cases were other people have found issues with it (those are facts, not my imagination).
Your position that dismisses all that, and suggestions that it's silly to waste time reading safety sheets or have any kind of concern about that.....I find odd.
Read the above....
I really don't wish to debate your interpretations of my reasons for posting some basic caution about using cleaners with acetone.
It may be that it sounds patronizing because you take every post I've made as some personal attack on YOUR choices.
I'll say it again, I don't really care what you use to clean your heads with.
If the acetone content of some denatured alcohol blends raises no concerns for you....just ignore my posts about it, but don't expect me to accept YOUR perspective that it's perfectly safe just because you've used it for x years, and stop objecting because I posted the concerns.
I find THAT somewhat condescending.
I'm not attacking YOUR choice to use whatever you want, I'm pointing out the potential for issues with acetone.
A Reel Person
It's Too Funky in Here!!!
...
I still have a couple of cans of TCE Head Cleaning fluid. One is TEAC and one is Hewlett Packard. I used to work for HP in field service, and we worked on plenty of 1/2", 9-track data tape drives back in the day. The TEAC can I believe I got about 10 years ago when I bought the MSR-24, used.
I use the 91% Isopropyl alcohol on my home recording gear, for the most part.
I still have a couple of cans of TCE Head Cleaning fluid. One is TEAC and one is Hewlett Packard. I used to work for HP in field service, and we worked on plenty of 1/2", 9-track data tape drives back in the day. The TEAC can I believe I got about 10 years ago when I bought the MSR-24, used.
I use the 91% Isopropyl alcohol on my home recording gear, for the most part.
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
lol ..... guys ....Miro can never acknowledge that ANYone else knows anything at all or that he's not perfect in his opinions.
Don't waste your time.
Newbies ...... Beck's about your best bet for analog knowledge here ..... if he says denatured is fine then it is.
Don't waste your time.
Newbies ...... Beck's about your best bet for analog knowledge here ..... if he says denatured is fine then it is.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
No thread is complete without an Lt. Bob "observation"....never mind that actual topic at hand. 
For the amount of time you've gone against a lot of what Beck has said in his firm pro-analog/anti-digital views....I find it comical that now you showed up to give him your "seal of approval" ....just so you can take a shot at me.
Beck and I can disagree and debate, but I don't take personal shots to win a point, and neither does he.....something you can't seem to help doing.
In this very thread I acknowledged that Beck knows a lot and has a lot of experience in analog....so stop trying to stir the pot....just 'cuz you're still butt-hurt over the "Vinyl" thread where I posted tons of facts supporting my views, and you....ZERO.
For the amount of time you've gone against a lot of what Beck has said in his firm pro-analog/anti-digital views....I find it comical that now you showed up to give him your "seal of approval" ....just so you can take a shot at me.
Beck and I can disagree and debate, but I don't take personal shots to win a point, and neither does he.....something you can't seem to help doing.
In this very thread I acknowledged that Beck knows a lot and has a lot of experience in analog....so stop trying to stir the pot....just 'cuz you're still butt-hurt over the "Vinyl" thread where I posted tons of facts supporting my views, and you....ZERO.
rayc
retroreprobate
Sorry Miro,
I don't believe I took any personal shots.
I though I'd clarified the positions taken and pointed out that there are holes or flaws in every argument - even those of experts.
I didn't attack your choice or information.
I didn't object to you posting concerns, that would be silly and unproductive.
You should read things when you're calmer as you seem to have missed the point.
I objected to your failure to accept another perspective.
You've willfully misinterpreted my simple statements.
You've also misinterpreted condescension.
At no time did I attempt to bring you around to my point of view - as stated I gave my opinion and supported that of another.
Trying to convince you of anything you've already taken a position on would be pointless.
You really aren't flash at accepting the differing position of others. That's personal.
Strangely, you seem not to have understood what the words actually say in the quote I clipped from your essay & that you requoted to me.
Read through the thread from a disinterested position. That's what I did initially. Reflect on the the content and the way that content is proposed.
You'll find ... no I won't assume anything.
I've learnt something about pinchrollers - two bits of information from two different sources that have significant cross over so I can take that cross over area - water - and change my current method to something safer - thanks fellas. I'm willing & happy to learn which is why I visit HR.
You've taken the wounded bull stance.
I'll respond with a fleeting goodbye because I've wasted my time.
I don't believe I took any personal shots.
I though I'd clarified the positions taken and pointed out that there are holes or flaws in every argument - even those of experts.
I didn't attack your choice or information.
I didn't object to you posting concerns, that would be silly and unproductive.
You should read things when you're calmer as you seem to have missed the point.
I objected to your failure to accept another perspective.
You've willfully misinterpreted my simple statements.
You've also misinterpreted condescension.
At no time did I attempt to bring you around to my point of view - as stated I gave my opinion and supported that of another.
Trying to convince you of anything you've already taken a position on would be pointless.
You really aren't flash at accepting the differing position of others. That's personal.
Strangely, you seem not to have understood what the words actually say in the quote I clipped from your essay & that you requoted to me.
Read through the thread from a disinterested position. That's what I did initially. Reflect on the the content and the way that content is proposed.
You'll find ... no I won't assume anything.
I've learnt something about pinchrollers - two bits of information from two different sources that have significant cross over so I can take that cross over area - water - and change my current method to something safer - thanks fellas. I'm willing & happy to learn which is why I visit HR.
You've taken the wounded bull stance.
I'll respond with a fleeting goodbye because I've wasted my time.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
After all that....^^^^^....I wonder who's the "wounded bull" here and needs to calm down.
You object to me not accepting yours/others perspectives...but then you say you're not trying to bring me around to your point of view. Huh?
That's not my problem....that's your problem.
If I disagree, you think I'm wrong to do so, and you want me to accept your views...while I also accept my opposing views. Nope...can't be done.
One thing I agree with you is that this has been a lot of "wasted time"...which is why I keep saying use whatever you want, but that's not good enough, 'cuz what you really want is for me to abandon my view and accept yours as the more correct....that's the condescending part.
All I've been trying to talk about is the cleaning process and the tools.....all you've been talking about since you came into this thread... is me. After the alcohol discussion tied off a week ago, you saw the need to resurrect it by once again talking about me.
Get over it...let's move on.
B
Beck
Guest
There's probably just too much alcohol in this thread and we're all a bit talking out of a bottle or can of whatever. 