What is this chord?

[LI_Slim]

I haven't listened to it but it "sounds" to me that (assuming no capo) she is using it as one would use an Am7 in the key of C (since it has no third you can't distinguish between Am7 and A7). It might not be discernable on the recording because it just sounds like part of the C chord that preceeds it.

 

[famous beagle]

I haven't listened to it but it "sounds" to me that (assuming no capo) she is using it as one would use an Am7 in the key of C (since it has no third you can't distinguish between Am7 and A7). It might not be discernable on the recording because it just sounds like part of the C chord that preceeds it.

Assuming no capo (so ... I'm not talking about sounding pitch here, I'm talking guitar thinking), I think you're right that it's functioning kind of like an Am7, but the song is not in the key of C. It's actually in the key of G.

The verse is kind of like a ii-V progression that never resolves to I. Guitar pitch, this would be kind of like Em/A to Dadd2/4. In sounding pitch, it would be Gm/C to Fadd2/4.


Oh wait! I just listened to the very end of the song, and she does go up to that chord with two sets of unison notes in it. But it's not until the end of the song. For the rest of the song, she's playing that chord I just referenced a few posts ago.

 

[zbert]

Here is what she is playing for each section of the song. The song has a capo on the third fret. The chords I am giving you are as I know the names of the chords in the OP. I know it changes with the capo but for the sake of argument let's talk about this as OP.
Intro and Verse
C the unknown chord on the 5th fret

Chorus
C Em Am

Chorus into the solo
C Em Am G E

Solo section
C to a "C" on the third fret to the unknown chord and back to the "C" on the third fret

Most of the song is the C to this unknown chord

 

[famous beagle]

Here is what she is playing for each section of the song. The song has a capo on the third fret. The chords I am giving you are as I know the names of the chords in the OP. I know it changes with the capo but for the sake of argument let's talk about this as OP.
Intro and Verse
C the unknown chord on the 5th fret

Chorus
C Em Am

Chorus into the solo
C Em Am G E

Solo section
C to a "C" on the third fret to the unknown chord and back to the "C" on the third fret

Most of the song is the C to this unknown chord

geez ... I'm just so confused at this point, but now I realize you're not talking sounding pitch because of the rest of the chords you listed. You're talking about what a guitarist is seeing the chords as.

So .... here goes.

Those chords you listed in the verse are not right.

Here is what she is playing on the verse (a "0" represents the capo in the tab; all other numbers are counted out from that):

first chord in verse:

---0--- E
---0--- B
---0--- G
---5--- G
---0--- A
-------

This chord can best be called (IMO) an Em/A. (With a capo at fret 3, obviously, this chord sounds 3 half steps higher, which would be Gm/C.)

second chord in verse:

---0--- E
---3--- D
---0--- G
---4--- F#
---5--- D
-------

This chord is called Dadd2/4. (With a capo at fret 3, obviously, this chord sounds 3 half steps higher, which would be Fadd2/4.)

The verse alternates between these two chords. This is as plain as I can make it.

Nowhere in the verse (if the song begins on the verse) does she finger a C chord. That doesn't come in until the chorus (the bit about the "hometown").

I'm not trying to be rude. I'm just trying to get the facts straight. Sorry if I came off that way.

 

[JTC111]

Here is what she is playing for each section of the song. The song has a capo on the third fret. The chords I am giving you are as I know the names of the chords in the OP. I know it changes with the capo but for the sake of argument let's talk about this as OP.
Intro and Verse
C the unknown chord on the 5th fret

Chorus
C Em Am

Chorus into the solo
C Em Am G E

Solo section
C to a "C" on the third fret to the unknown chord and back to the "C" on the third fret

Most of the song is the C to this unknown chord

Okay, I played it and it's exactly what I said it was, although for the sake of being correct within the key, I'd call it something slightly different: Am7(no 3rd). If you play it as the performer is playing it, then substitute x02010 for the x05050 chord, it's clearly the right chord.

 

[JTC111]

I suppose one could say this, but it seems awfully semantic.

I mean, first of all, what would you call (low to high) G-C#-E if you don't call it A7?

It's a C# diminished triad. If the composer didn't want an A in there, then he didn't want an A7.
I understand that functionally it can perform the job an A7 chord performs, but it's not an A7.

Secondly, music theory is really nothing more than applying names and terms for musical devices and explanations for how and why things work. It allows us to communicate with other musicians,

I agree with you up to this point...

but it doesn't exist in a vaccum. The "rules" of music theory are broken all the time, and if it's been communicated by two musicians that this is an A7 chord, then why can't it be?

...but here I disagree.
Yes, the rules get broken all the time by people but if we all have a different set of rules, eventually the ability to communicate breaks down. If it's okay to call a G-C#-E an A7, then is it also okay to call G-C# an A7?

If your answer to that question is yes, then my next question is: if it's okay to call a G-C#-E an A7 and it's okay to call a G-C# an A7, then isn't it also okay to call a C#, all by itself, an A7 too?

And if your answer is no because chords require 3 notes, my question is: why is the rule that chords require 3 notes more important than the rule that any variation of any A chord must have an A note present?

You don't actually have to answer those questions. I just wanted to point out why I think the practice of breaking the rules should be kept to a minimum.

 

[zbert]

Damn guys. I didn't mean to open such a can of worms. I called the girl who wrote the song. She really has no idea what she's plying. She just messes around with chords till she finds something she likes. The first chord she is calling a C is not. Ready for this. What she is playing is in OP (starting on low E) OO4400 to the OO5O5O. BTW thanks for teaching me how to write out these chords. Like I said I'm a drummer who can play a few chords.

 

[Henry Mars]

Damn guys. I didn't mean to open such a can of worms. I called the girl who wrote the song. She really has no idea what she's plying. She just messes around with chords till she finds something she likes. The first chord she is calling a C is not. Ready for this. What she is playing is in OP (starting on low E) OO4400 to the OO5O5O. BTW thanks for teaching me how to write out these chords. Like I said I'm a drummer who can play a few chords.

Depending how the harmonic line and bass notes are moving it could be used as a 7th a minor 6 or 6/9 a half diminished or a 13b5 etc.there is a tremendous potential in triads when they are understood in context. In this case I suspect that it is being used as an A7 without the root and if the bass player knows what he/she is doing it will sound good.

 

[famous beagle]

Damn guys. I didn't mean to open such a can of worms. I called the girl who wrote the song. She really has no idea what she's plying. She just messes around with chords till she finds something she likes. The first chord she is calling a C is not. Ready for this. What she is playing is in OP (starting on low E) OO4400 to the OO5O5O. BTW thanks for teaching me how to write out these chords. Like I said I'm a drummer who can play a few chords.

Well, either she's in a altered tuning (which in unlikely), or she's incorrect. Those notes are not what's on the recording; that's just a fact.

The first chord is either X05400 (which she could mean), or it's X05000 like I said. (The low 6th string is not played) An X05400 shape would just be doubling the second open string instead of doubling the 3rd open string, which is possible.

But in no universe whatsoever is the second chord 005050. If you can't hear that, then your ear is not trained enough or something. The second chord is clearly 54030 (the low 6th string is not played). This is a very common device on the guitar. It's basically just moving the C chord shape up two frets, so you get these 2nd intervals between the 5th and 4th strings and 2nd and 1st strings. If y'all can't hear those clusters, then you're just not listening hard enough (or you just haven't listened to the tune at all).

Actually, the low 6th string is not played on the first chord either.

 

[famous beagle]

It's a C# diminished triad. If the composer didn't want an A in there, then he didn't want an A7.
I understand that functionally it can perform the job an A7 chord performs, but it's not an A7.



I agree with you up to this point...



...but here I disagree.
Yes, the rules get broken all the time by people but if we all have a different set of rules, eventually the ability to communicate breaks down. If it's okay to call a G-C#-E an A7, then is it also okay to call G-C# an A7?

If your answer to that question is yes, then my next question is: if it's okay to call a G-C#-E an A7 and it's okay to call a G-C# an A7, then isn't it also okay to call a C#, all by itself, an A7 too?

And if your answer is no because chords require 3 notes, my question is: why is the rule that chords require 3 notes more important than the rule that any variation of any A chord must have an A note present?

You don't actually have to answer those questions. I just wanted to point out why I think the practice of breaking the rules should be kept to a minimum.

You bring up good points, but I guess I just feel that the rules can be bent much more than you can.

I mean, think about it: It would be silly and impractical if this type of thinking were put into practice.

Singer: Ok, let's take it from the A7.

Guitarist: Where?

Bassists: The A7, at the beginning of the verse.

Guitarist: Hmmm .... well ... I'm not playing A7 there. I'm playing C# diminished.

Bassist: Well, yeah .. you're playing only three notes, but I'm playing the root note, A, so the chord you're playing functions as an A7.

Guitarist: Well ... sure ... but this chord really can't be called an A7 if I'm not playing an A.

Singer: Shut up, both of you. Ok (to bassist), let's take if from the A7 ... (to guitarist) let's take it from the C# diminished.


I know this demonstration is a bit absurd, but I'm just trying to make a point. There are some "chords" that simply don't make sense if you force another root on them.

Case in point:

---10---
---10---
---9----
---9----
--------
--------

This chord could be called many different things: Bm11 would be one possibility. Or maybe E7sus4.

However, if you played this chord at the end of a jazzy tune in the key of G, it will sound like a G6/9 chord. In fact, it is a very common 6/9 voicing.

It could also function as a D6/9 chord (in which case it actually would contain the root).

So, my question to you is this. Would it make sense in the music to call this an E7sus4 chord as the final chord to a song in G? (When the bass in fact plays G at the end too).

If your answer is no, then you agree that context should play a role in the naming of a chord, and the "rules" of chord naming don't exist in a vacuum. They rely on context too.

This is really just more a matter of a philosophy than a matter of fact.

 

[zbert]

I guess the next best thing I can do is when she is in for another session (I think this upcoming Wednesday night) I'll film her playing the song and post it on You Tube. Thanks for all the insite and I'll be back next week.

 

[JTC111]

So, my question to you is this. Would it make sense in the music to call this an E7sus4 chord as the final chord to a song in G? (When the bass in fact plays G at the end too).

If your answer is no, then you agree that context should play a role in the naming of a chord, and the "rules" of chord naming don't exist in a vacuum. They rely on context too.

I'm pretty sure I agreed with you on that point already. The key of the song certainly provides some context as to what name a particular chord should have. For instance, as I'm sure you know, a dim7 chord with the notes C-Eb-Gb-A can have 6 different names depending on the key and perhaps also what it's sitting between. But if you change or omit one of those notes, it's no longer one of those 6 chords.

 

[famous beagle]

I'm pretty sure I agreed with you on that point already. The key of the song certainly provides some context as to what name a particular chord should have. For instance, as I'm sure you know, a dim7 chord with the notes C-Eb-Gb-A can have 6 different names depending on the key and perhaps also what it's sitting between. But if you change or omit one of those notes, it's no longer one of those 6 chords.

Ok, I think we'll just have to respectfully disagree on the subject. You're obviously very knowledgable on the subject of theory, as am I. We just tend to view it differently. Thanks for your insights; it was an interesting debate.

 

[JTC111]

Ok, I think we'll just have to respectfully disagree on the subject. You're obviously very knowledgable on the subject of theory, as am I. We just tend to view it differently. Thanks for your insights; it was an interesting debate.

Yep, just don't be passing along any of your fake sheets and expect me to know what to play.

 

[dogonjon]

My turn with the can opener

I had to check my tuning to be sure we are talking about the same song, Hometown.The tonality sounds like it's in the key of Bb and the chords are Ebmaj7 (Eb,Bb,D, G)to a D min7(D,A,C,F) which could also be a Bbmaj7 depending on the bass. I based this analysis on two notes fingered as described. The first voicing Bb +G, the second A+D. I interpret this to be a IV- iii vamp in the key of Bb. The bridge/ turn around Cmin, Bb, G7 is an unusual twist which resolves neatly to the Ebmaj7. I have difficulty in finding the exact voicings as I have no capo but I wouldn't rule out lowered or altered tuning. None the less, tonality being what it is and the possibility of substitutions, I think I hear what I hear and it plays out with the tape.
Am I high? Or not high enough?

 

[famous beagle]

I had to check my tuning to be sure we are talking about the same song, Hometown.The tonality sounds like it's in the key of Bb and the chords are Ebmaj7 (Eb,Bb,D, G)to a D min7(D,A,C,F) which could also be a Bbmaj7 depending on the bass. I based this analysis on two notes fingered as described. The first voicing Bb +G, the second A+D. I interpret this to be a IV- iii vamp in the key of Bb. The bridge/ turn around Cmin, Bb, G7 is an unusual twist which resolves neatly to the Ebmaj7. I have difficulty in finding the exact voicings as I have no capo but I wouldn't rule out lowered or altered tuning. None the less, tonality being what it is and the possibility of substitutions, I think I hear what I hear and it plays out with the tape.
Am I high? Or not high enough?

I think you're a little high, but not quite high enough.

The tonality is Bb (concert pitch), you're right about that. But the root notes of the two verse chords are C and then F, not Eb and D.

So, this post is referring to sounding (concert pitch), not guitar thinking-pitch.

The first chord could be called C9(no 3rd) or Gm/C. This has three notes from Ebmaj7 in it: G, Bb, and D. But there's no Eb in the chord. There's a low C root (which is the open 5th string, capoed at fret 3).

The second chord has a few notes in common with Dm7 as well: F and A. But there's no D or C in the chord. There's a Bb and a G. These are the open third and first strings capoed at the 3rd fret. The other notes are F on the fift string, A on the 4th string, and F on the second string. This is the old trick of taking a C chord shape and sliding it up two frets and allowing the open 3rd and 1st strings to still ring open. (remember, she's capoed at fret 3.)

If you put a capo on, these are very easy shapes to play.

 

[dogonjon]

Melody and Root movement

Just because a note isn't sounded doesn't mean that it isn't implied. The melody of the vocal line is Bb, A, F,Eb,D,C,Bb. A,F,D,C are the notes (arpeggio) in Dmin7. Bb is the 5th of EbMaj7 a common convention is starting a melody on the 5th. My ear and musical sensibility demands that I insert the necessary root movement to fill in the blanks left by the guitar part. Chords can be suspended over many bass notes but ultimately the tonality and root movement is tied to the melody.

 

[Jouni]

So, there is three pages of this...
Go find that proggie where you place dots on a fretboard and it tells you what the chord is.
..can't remember the name of the program, since I couldn't care less... I don't even know how A7 is fingered.

 

[dogonjon]

The point is...

So, there is three pages of this...
Go find that proggie where you place dots on a fretboard and it tells you what the chord is.
..can't remember the name of the program, since I couldn't care less... I don't even know how A7 is fingered.

This is a transcription and analysis puzzle. The challenge is to take a piece of music that was composed and recorded by a musician with an inspiration and no technical baggage and force it to fit into the conventions of traditional music theory.

 

[famous beagle]

This is a transcription and analysis puzzle. The challenge is to take a piece of music that was composed and recorded by a musician with an inspiration and no technical baggage and force it to fit into the conventions of traditional music theory.

I'm not trying to be rude, but it's really a pretty simple progression. The notes are easy to hear, and if you put a capo on the 3rd fret and play the chords I've mentioned, you'll see what I mean.