using reel-to-reel in conjunction with DAW

[FALKEN]

if you assume that the digital conversions are transparent, then there is no difference.

 

[AGCurry]

I think we're confusing the issue a bit here. Using an analog tape deck in any way in the digital recording process should be viewed as an effect, same as any other effect.

The results will differ, obviously, with the tape deck used. If you want the recording to sound like it was recorded on a professional tape machine, you need a professional tape machine. But, if you want to create a different effect, the cheapest of machines may do what you want.

For example, years ago I used a Tascam cassette recorder. Although it was by no means high fidelity, I wish I still had that machine because it imparted a weird but pleasing sound.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I think we're confusing the issue a bit here. Using an analog tape deck in any way in the digital recording process should be viewed as an effect, same as any other effect.

Bingo! IMHO, AGC has hit the nail on the head with that whole post.

Several years ago I used to use an old Pioneer RT1020L 10" 2-track open reel for similar puproses. I found that when gained correctly it often put a very nice patina on my 2mixes as a finishing step. It was not appropriate for all mixes or production styles, any more than a specific compressor or EQ is always appropriate for all songs. It also did not sound anything like a 2" Sony or Studer or anything like that. Nor did I expect it to. But it definitely had a positive sound and a positive purpose for many a 2mix.

G.

 

[MCI2424]

Oh I see what you mean! I guess I wasn't clear enough in my original post. I did intend to actually record to tape and then bounce that back into the hard disk.

As far as the caliber of machine, I was thinking of something along the lines of a 2-track Otari (maybe like an MX 55, 5050, or MTR 10). (Of course it would be properly aligned, calibrated, and biased, etc.)

Those units will probably work as long as you bias (align) them fairly low. The best tape compression sound is derived when the record electronics work in the linear range and slam the tape creating a easy magnetic saturation (pleasing compression) as opposed to record electronics that have the measurable headroom, but are not in a linear range. This type of tape comression sounds nasty. Measured headroom (like +28 ) means nothing if the signal above +12 is non-linear (like many low end narrow format machines). It is something to try as all these machines are different and some will do it, some will not.

Think of it this way. Take a 10Watt amplifier and a 100Watt amplifier and run the 10Watt amp at 75% power (7.5watts). Measure the distortion of the signal. Now, run the 100Watt amp at 7.5Watts and measure the signal. The 100Watt amp will have 10 times lower distortion. Same measured power but the 10Watt amp runs out of it's linear range and starts to crap out where the 100Watt amp has plenty more to go to even begin to distort. Pro decks have tons of clean gain to slam the tape where home narrow gap units tend to run out of steam when slamming the tape. It is a matter of cutting corners for price point. All these decks were never meant to slam the tape as designed. It just turned out that people figured out in pro studios that this effect was possible and it caught on. As usual, the info got around and it is accepted that every tape deck can accomplish it. My Fostexs and TASCAMS of past ownership never quite could get there. They sounded pretty bad when trying to slam the tape. I guess it is something to try as you have nothing to lose unless you run GP9 where you will not be even close.

 

[Fletcher]

could you expand on this a bit Fletcher? Recently i've been tracking to PT HD through a 192io, and then bouncing out to an Otari MTR90 and back into Tools, and am curious as to what you think of this as a pratice.

The resolution of even 24 bit digital can not match the resolution of analog... so by sending the digital signal through an extra set of conversion processes you're not really sending "the sound" to the machine... you're sending something that resembles the original sound to the machine. While analog might be able to fill in some of the holes, add some noise [etc.] I would suggest running to the analog deck first and then doing only one A/D conversion to get into P-T... I would also suggest you scrap the "HD" converters for something that sounds a measure clearer and fuller [like Apogee AD-16x and/or DA-16x... or a Crane Song "Spider", etc., etc., etc.]

also you have ried any tape emulation plug-ins, and if so what did you think of them?

I've used the Crane Song plugins a couple of times and they seemed to help in a big way... I don't run PT at my joint [we're about to switch from Nuendo to Logic Pro... and my main storage device is a RADAR V-Nyquist] so its not something I use on a regular basis. The few times I have been sentenced to having to suffer through Pro-sTools I've used the Crane Song plug ins [which helped tremendously!!] and Apogee D/A converters to sum the product in the analog domain [usually through a Folcrom summing box with a Thermionic Culture "Earlybird 2" as the output amplifier].

 

[DAS19]

I couldnt read all of these posts because it is way to long for my attention span but maybe do the tape conversion and then mix the digital track in with the tape track. You might be able to get something cool. My $ .02

Dave

 

[FattMusiek]

Perhaps someone here is willing to answer a question I've got. What's a relatively cheap reel to reel tape machine and where can you buy it? Forgive my naivete, but I know one thing: I love the sound of tape.

 

[Beck]

Perhaps someone here is willing to answer a question I've got. What's a relatively cheap reel to reel tape machine and where can you buy it? Forgive my naivete, but I know one thing: I love the sound of tape.

I can recommend the TASCAM 32 as a good machine with a proven record in both the pro and semi-pro worlds. But even more so the TASCAM 22-2 half-track with selectable speeds of 7.5 or 15 ips. It is smaller, simpler in design and thus will probably outlive most processor controlled decks by many years.

I'm a fan of the 22-2, (which is based on the TEAC small frame X-series) because it is so unassuming, yet so capable. Even if you can't find one in pristine condition it's one of the best candidates for an overhaul I know of. The critical parts are still available at low cost from TASCAM, including new heads, which are only about $40.00 each.

The best part is you almost feel that you’re getting away with something by experiencing such high fidelity with the TASCAMS "budget half-track". It’s like the dream police will knock at my door someday and I’ll have to hide them under the floor with my AK-47, because it must be against the law make such wonderful mixes on such modest equipment… Karma or something… you know.

I own two of these machines and love them to pieces. Have it setup for Quantegy 407 (you can also use Maxell XL 35-90B and Scotch 207 when/if you can find it) and start making beautiful music.

Sources:
eBay
musicgoround.com
Craigslist

 

[Fletcher]

You will negate a lot of the possitive attributes of tape by recording to digital first and then using analog like a processing device

could you expand on this a bit Fletcher? Recently i've been tracking to PT HD through a 192io, and then bouncing out to an Otari MTR90 and back into Tools, and am curious as to what you think of this as a pratice.

First off you're running through an A/D conversion to get into P-T, then a D/A to get onto the MTR-90 [which can make level management a bit tough unless you run through something like a console which adds even more amplifiers to the signal path] then when you come off the MTR-90 you're going to have to do another A/D conversion... and if you dicked with the levels [in order to optimize how you're printing to tape... which is greatly different from how you print to digital storage] then you're going to have to run through yet another set of amplifiers to optimize your levels back to digital.

You're already at a disadvantage running through the Shiti-Design 192 box so running through it an extra pair or times [one D/A to the tape then another A/D back to digital] will defeat most of the benefit you're trying to attain... if you're using Apogee AD-16X's and DA-16X's with the PT-HD card then you'll find less of a 2 dimensional thing happening to your audio but you're still doing a couple of conversions and running through some extra amplifiers which really is not the most positive thing you can do to your audio.

I would suggest that if you're going to record to tape, record to tape... from there if you want to transfer into the digital domain it will still be in your best interest to get yourself better converters than the silver and blue 192 boxes but at least you'll be doing less damage to the overall audio picture by minimizing the number of Analog-Digital/Digital-Analog/Analog-Digital conversions.

The "tape compression" thing can be compensated for by being careful about the level(s) at which you print the audio from the P-T rig to the tape... but the missing harmonic content from the 192 converters will still be absent.

also you have ried any tape emulation plug-ins, and if so what did you think of them?

The Crane Song "Phoenix" plug in is pretty outstanding for breathing life into Pro-sTools tracks... most of the rest I've heard like the "vintage warmer" suck hamster cock... but YMMV.

 

[BRDTS]

Hey Fletcher...

What did you think of the Anamod at the show?

 

[Fletcher]

I thought it was pretty cool... but I really want to hear a finished version in my control room instead of a prototype on a show floor... but what I heard from the prototype on the show floor seemed pretty cool.