The New Tone Thread

[Greg_L]

Oh I did say that...the old school er knows what phasing is ..but there was no way to get rid of it...

Lol @ phasing again. Phase is real, no doubt about that. But you seem to miss the point that a cardoid pattern mic (you do know what that is, right?) pointed directly at a loudspeaker on the grill that's blaring sound will get little to no input from the other speakers in the cab. It's been done that way for decades with huge success.

There's nothing wrong with thinking outside of the box, but dude........

 

[joeydahlia]

I like the idea and the effort he's put into it. I really do. I respect that.

I just don't for one second buy the notion that it's better than a traditional speaker cab just because it's different and quirky or that you can tailor any speaker to any amp for any sound, or any of that other complete nonsense.

hahaha but thats the reason why they were made...

 

[Greg_L]

hahaha but thats the reason why they were made...

That may be the idea, but it's too bad it's not based on reality.

 

[miroslav]

Oh I did say that...the old school er knows what phasing is ..but there was no way to get rid of it...

Yeah...but honestly, there's really not enough phasing worth even mentioning when you talk about multi-speaker cabs.
You might as well tell folks to plug one of their ears shut and only listen with one so as to avoid "phasing".

Just sell them for their sound and looks....leave the science out of it.
I think you will do much better promoting them as just alternatives to traditional cabs....but not as improvement backed by hard science.

YMMV.....

 

[joeydahlia]

That may be the idea, but it's too bad it's not based on reality.

Oh it is...they will be on display at winter Namm...for Bass and Guitar players -Rockers and Recordingeers...hehe

 

[Greg_L]

So Joey, how much do these things sell for?

 

[joeydahlia]

So Joey, how much do these things sell for?

Not sure..right now I just build them at cost about 200.00 with no speaker or wire...

I can load a celestion rocket and 12 gauge for 50.00...but this is my cost...there are only about 20 drums in circulation...not many..

at Namm most guitar players would walk by them, so I have to explain them to every soul in my booth...lol....but winter Namm things will be crazy..I know what I am in for!!!

people have gone up and pulled out their drum stix...hahaha

 

[Greg_L]

Not sure..right now I just build them at cost about 200.00 with no speaker or wire...

I can load a celestion rocket and 12 gauge for 50.00...but this is my cost...there are only about 20 drums in circulation...not many..

at Namm most guitar players would walk by them, so I have to explain them to every soul in my booth...lol....but winter Namm things will be crazy..I know what I am in for!!!

people have gone up and pulled out their drum stix...hahaha

Lol. Well my humble suggestions are....stop calling them "drums" first of all. It's not a drum. It's a cab. Secondly, stop making claims that aren't true. Phasing isn't the problem that you seem to think it is and you can't just put any speaker with any amp. I notice you like the K100. That's a safe speaker for a high watt head. Safe choice there for your product, but it's very limiting.

Call it what it is - an adjustable 1x12 cab. It will never in a million years sound like a 2x12 or a 4x12, but it's very cool for a 1x12 cab.

I totally admit that your design has intrigued me and I've been researching your stuff on the net since seeing this thread. You've taken a serious beating all across the internet and everyone says pretty much the same thing. I mostly agree with them. You're barking up the wrong tree with your claims and charts. I personally find your sound clips to be thin sounding, but that's personal taste. Your product does at least work in the sense that it makes sound and the moveable pillow does something. But still, it's a really cool idea and I honestly hope you find a market for it. Unfortunately, it's really easy for anyone to just make one themselves if they're interested.

Hell, I'm a drummer. I've got 12" drum shells laying around. I might make one myself.

 

[miroslav]

I personally find your sound clips to be thin sounding...

And that's probably 'cuz there is no significant cab interaction.
That's going to be a personal choice thing...but most players like some low end thump, and in many cases, the cab design for guitar amp use tends to focus on tuning that low end to whatever the designer's goal is.

Seems that often when players talk about cabs and what they like/dislike about them....it often ends up being about how the low-end is responding....full/boxy/resonant/thin/muffled/lively/3-D, 2-D...etc, etc...
...not sure how much of a sell it is going to be when you attempt to completely remove as much cab interaction so that it's mostly/only the speaker sound.
Often...you take a speaker out of it's enclosure...and it's not that great sounding by itself.

Have you done any sales/orders yet from the previous NAMM shows?
Are there any people who have purchased them and are using them in studios or gigs (not counting prototype trials)?
If you have sold a bunch...then get some positive user feedback posted about them. That's usually what will help sell a product when it's somewhat "quirky", new, different....

 

[Telegram Sam]

 

[miroslav]

The '60s are alive and well....


That's a pretty cool process.

Do they also do T-shirts?

 

[joeydahlia]

And that's probably 'cuz there is no significant cab interaction.
That's going to be a personal choice thing...but most players like some low end thump, and in many cases, the cab design for guitar amp use tends to focus on tuning that low end to whatever the designer's goal is.

Seems that often when players talk about cabs and what they like/dislike about them....it often ends up being about how the low-end is responding....full/boxy/resonant/thin/muffled/lively/3-D, 2-D...etc, etc...
...not sure how much of a sell it is going to be when you attempt to completely remove as much cab interaction so that it's mostly/only the speaker sound.
Often...you take a speaker out of it's enclosure...and it's not that great sounding by itself.

Have you done any sales/orders yet from the previous NAMM shows?
Are there any people who have purchased them and are using them in studios or gigs (not counting prototype trials)?
If you have sold a bunch...then get some positive user feedback posted about them. That's usually what will help sell a product when it's somewhat "quirky", new, different....

I agree...

my drums are mudless any need no eq post or pre...

and with normal cabs you are recording the sound inside the cab so thats why there is always going to be boomy -mud - phase so you wont have them 3 with the drums

 

[miroslav]

OK...so just to be clear, are you pushing these primarily for recording....or also for live gigs?

And...not all cabs are muddy/boomy. The ones that are well designed and married up with the right speaker actually sound great and have a 3-D like quality because there is volume/space, and if the cab is open in back, additional interaction with the room.

You take all that away with the speaker-only approach.

Now, there may be some use for recording where you want to minimizes cab sound, but I don't ever try to remove the cab from the recording. You seem (?) to think/suggest that THAT is going to be a benefit...?
Like I said, it might work for some...but I don't see it as an improvement or replacement to traditional cab/mic recording.
It might be nice to have your cabs as an additional option...but I still think regular cabs would get used more so than your rig....mainly 'cuz players want to hear a certain sound in the room too.

Anyway...I still think you should/could sell them as an *option* to cabs, rather than keep trying to suggest that they are better than cabs 'cuz of "phasing" or whatever.
As an option, it opens up interest for everyone...as a replacement to cabs, it creates too much controversy and goes against a lot of personal tastes.

 

[joeydahlia]

OK...so just to be clear, are you pushing these primarily for recording....or also for live gigs?

And...not all cabs are muddy/boomy. The ones that are well designed and married up with the right speaker actually sound great and have a 3-D like quality because there is volume/space, and if the cab is open in back, additional interaction with the room.

You take all that away with the speaker-only approach.

Now, there may be some use for recording where you want to minimizes cab sound, but I don't ever try to remove the cab from the recording. You seem (?) to think/suggest that THAT is going to be a benefit...?
Like I said, it might work for some...but I don't see it as an improvement or replacement to traditional cab/mic recording.
It might be nice to have your cabs as an additional option...but I still think regular cabs would get used more so than your rig....mainly 'cuz players want to hear a certain sound in the room too.

Anyway...I still think you should/could sell them as an *option* to cabs, rather than keep trying to suggest that they are better than cabs 'cuz of "phasing" or whatever.
As an option, it opens up interest for everyone...as a replacement to cabs, it creates too much controversy and goes against a lot of personal tastes.

I understand...I talked about this years ago...
and may talk about it for ever...lol

you dont want to hear your tone off the walls..its not your true tone..you only want to hear off the speaker..

 

[Lt. Bob]

I agree...

my drums are mudless any need no eq post or pre...

and with normal cabs you are recording the sound inside the cab so thats why there is always going to be boomy -mud - phase so you wont have them 3 with the drums

dude .... you really need to get it thru your head that you're saying things that aren't true.

First ..... despite your repeating the mantra it is NOT true that when you mic a cab it's always boomy mud .... period. I've been recording for 40 years and all of it was thru regular cabinets and I've NEVER ..... not once ..... not ever ..... had a track that was boomy mud.

Secondly ..... it is NOT true that your speakers will never need EQ ..... every single one of your clips I listened to desperately needed EQ'ing. They all sounded thin and bright and I wouldn't consider any of them to be acceptable without EQ'ing.

Lastly ....... bass reinforcement that cabs provide is often a desired sound.

Now .... you do what you want but if I were looking at your product I would be so turned off by your non-factual statements that I would lose any interest I might have had in your product.

The things you're saying are factually and scientifically incorrect and you should shy away from them and concentrate on what your cabs actually do which is provide their own unique sound.
That alone is something that your cabs genuinely DO provide. Another color on the tone palette for guitarists.

For a live player .... meh, I gig 250 nights a year. I can take my 1x12 cab and throw it in the truck (it won't roll around) and toss it onto the stage ( don't need any sort of stand) and since I tend towards open backed cabs it's gonna sound not that different than yours. Hopefully it'll not be as thin but it's gonna sound similar.
I definitely would never want to add dealing with a stand to my set-up routine.
But I might very well consider using one in the studio.

But not if you're gonna be V.P.- like in your stubborness to keep saying things that a ton of people are telling you are factually incorrect.

you dont want to hear your tone off the walls..its not your true tone..you only want to hear off the speaker..

another factually incorrect statement. First off ..... there is no such thing as true tone ...... different guitarists want different things and virtually EVERY top recording engineer uses a room mic for the specific purpose of getting the sound that bounces off the walls.
It IS a part of your sound.
My true tone, as you put it, is what I hear when standing or sitting in front of my amp. That's my true tone and it's what i want to capture and it includes the room interaction. It's rarely what comes out an inch in front of my speaker because it needs to get out into the room and have a chance to coelesce .
And your speaker will have just as much interaction with the room as any other cab.

You can't keep simply ignoring everything that people who clearly know a lot more about speaker design than you are trying to tell you. You get the same responses on other forums and keep ignoring them.
You are fundamently wrong in some of your statements.

I predict that your cabs will do ok IF you push what they actually do which is to have their own sound.
Saying factually incorrect things isn't a good way to sell them IMO.
Now ..... this is a tone thread .... it's not about your cabs ...... post some tone.

 

[joeydahlia]

dude .... you really need to get it thru your head that you're saying things that aren't true.

First ..... despite your repeating the mantra it is NOT true that when you mic a cab it's always boomy mud .... period. I've been recording for 40 years and all of it was thru regular cabinets and I've NEVER ..... not once ..... not ever ..... had a track that was boomy mud.

Secondly ..... it is NOT true that your speakers will never need EQ ..... every single one of your clips I listened to desperately needed EQ'ing. They all sounded thin and bright and I wouldn't consider any of them to be acceptable without EQ'ing.

Lastly ....... bass reinforcement that cabs provide is often a desired sound.

Now .... you do what you want but if I were looking at your product I would be so turned off by your non-factual statements that I would lose any interest I might have had in your product.

The things you're saying are factually and scientifically incorrect and you should shy away from them and concentrate on what your cabs actually do which is provide their own unique sound.
That alone is something that your cabs genuinely DO provide. Another color on the tone palette for guitarists.

For a live player .... meh, I gig 250 nights a year. I can take my 1x12 cab and throw it in the truck (it won't roll around) and toss it onto the stage ( don't need any sort of stand) and since I tend towards open backed cabs it's gonna sound not that different than yours. Hopefully it'll not be as thin but it's gonna sound similar.
I definitely would never want to add dealing with a stand to my set-up routine.
But I might very well consider using one in the studio.

But not if you're gonna be V.P.- like in your stubborness to keep saying things that a ton of people are telling you are factually incorrect.



another factually incorrect statement. First off ..... there is no such thing as true tone ...... different guitarists want different things and virtually EVERY top recording engineer uses a room mic for the specific purpose of getting the sound that bounces off the walls.
It IS a part of your sound.
My true tone, as you put it, is what I hear when standing or sitting in front of my amp. That's my true tone and it's what i want to capture and it includes the room interaction. It's rarely what comes out an inch in front of my speaker because it needs to get out into the room and have a chance to coelesce .
And your speaker will have just as much interaction with the room as any other cab.

You can't keep simply ignoring everything that people who clearly know a lot more about speaker design than you are trying to tell you. You get the same responses on other forums and keep ignoring them.
You are fundamently wrong in some of your statements.

I predict that your cabs will do ok IF you push what they actually do which is to have their own sound.
Saying factually incorrect things isn't a good way to sell them IMO.
Now ..... this is a tone thread .... it's not about your cabs ...... post some tone.

hahaha..if I listen to everyone I would not have played guitar, exhibit at Namm... been a bodybuilder..
I mean why not go with your gut for just 1 time in life....lol

 

[Lt. Bob]

hahaha..if I listen to everyone I would not have played guitar, exhibit at Namm... been a bodybuilder..
I mean why not go with your gut for just 1 time in life....lol

thing is man ..... I haven't said your cabs aren't a good idea .... in fact, I've said the opposite ..... I've said several times they look like an interesting product.
I think you should go with your gut as far as continuing the company and marketing them. You might very well have a winner on your hands.

But ... facts aren't a matter of 'going with your gut'.
They are facts and when you insist on saying things that are flat out, period, without any doubt whatsoever non-correct; it makes you seem like you don't know what you're talking about and it reflects poorly on the product.

A GOOD business man will adjust his sales pitch to reflect reality when it becomes obvious some of it isn't correct.

Whether you succeed or not is gonna have something to do with how well you handle being a business man ....... basically it comes down to either stubbornly refuse to adjust your claims to reflect reality and be a bad businessman; or be a good businessman and change the spiel to be accurate about what your product can do and NOT turn off potential buyers by spouting nonsense.

I wish you well and hope you have success ....... but you sound VERY uninformed about speakers and cabs and if you won't correct that then it's going to have a negative impact on your sales.

 

[joeydahlia]

thing is man ..... I haven't said your cabs aren't a good idea .... in fact, I've said the opposite ..... I've said several times they look like an interesting product.
I think you should go with your gut as far as continuing the company and marketing them. You might very well have a winner on your hands.

But ... facts aren't a matter of 'going with your gut'.
They are facts and when you insist on saying things that are flat out, period, without any doubt whatsoever non-correct; it makes you seem like you don't know what you're talking about and it reflects poorly on the product.

A GOOD business man will adjust his sales pitch to reflect reality when it becomes obvious some of it isn't correct.

Whether you succeed or not is gonna have something to do with how well you handle being a business man ....... basically it comes down to either stubbornly refuse to adjust your calims to reflect reality and be a bad businessman; or be a good businessman and change the spiel to be accurate about what your product can do and NOT turn off potential buyers by spouting nonsense.

I wish you well and hope you have success ....... but you sound VERY uninformed about speakers and cabs and if you won't correct that then it's going to have a negative impact on your sales.

But If I told you a cab is just a box and the mic hears inside...you wont believe me.......lol

and thats why I made KloPs

 

[Greg_L]

But If I told you a cab is just a box and the mic hears inside...you wont believe me.......lol

and thats why I made KloPs

By that logic, your design is just a cylinder and the mic also hears what's inside, otherwise your little pillow would have no effect. As mentioned already, you clearly don't understand how speakers, cabs, and mics work.

 

[joeydahlia]

By that logic, your design is just a cylinder and the mic also hears what's inside, otherwise your little pillow would have no effect. As mentioned already, you clearly don't understand how speakers, cabs, and mics work.

huh..the mic struggles to hear inside...
we created a barrier behind the magnet ..and with the pillow on the other side..it is very hard to hear inside..and your string are busting thru along with your harmonics..

I get 100% feedback at Namm nobody wines like little girls...lol but I also understand your looking at picks and have alot of ???? but we do have to meet someday halfway..