Tascam M-___ Story...

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I used my Fluke DMM that, unfortunately, has a flukey LCD screen, but both my modded M-___ PS-520 and the unmodded M-520 PS-520 measure about 0.7VAC and 0VDC at the power supply output on the chassis of the PSU...Is this by design, or are both my PS-520's messed up?



But-but-but...they don't tie together in the M-520...do they???

Okay...regardless, where do I tie them together??? What is a logical point? Inside the PSU since that is what the schematic shows? Run a jumper between the two where they connect to the motherboard?

I don't totally understand why there are two separate 0V rails if they tie together anyway. I think this is beyond me.


He, he, he. Did we say that audio was a bit of a Black Art? (Dr Evil laughter in the background)

The reason is that those stupid electrons just don't know what a ground is and ohm's law comes into play. (traces have some resistance so there is some voltage drop along the trace so the ground voltage changes at any given poing referenced to the system ground reference point.) Run the LED return current through the 0V(d) and is will not show up in the audio output as noise. This helps to isolate and noise, oscillations and what not from the analog side.

Somewhere inthe M520 the 2 grounds are tied together. THis will be the system reference ground. Most likely is stars out from there to the case and other points that need a groudn. I'll look next time I have my M520 open.

The test is to jumper them together at the meter board and see if the LED goes out. If so then you can worry about where your system ground is.

(evil laugh continues in the background) have fun!

--Ethan
 
Next time my OCD is getting out of control I'm gonna stop by this thread and reassure myself that my OCD isn't really that bad.:D

Don't ever change!!!:)
 
I done jumpered 'em temperrarily with a paper clip...

And it worked...LED's go out, meters no longer jump. Maybe later I'll put a channel strip in and run audio to see if the meters respond to input. :D

Thanks for the explanation of multiple 0V rails...makes sense.

Any advisement on where to tie the 0V rails together would be welcomed. :)
 
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And it worked...LED's go out, meters no longer jump. Maybe later I'll put a channel strip in and run audio to see if the meters respond to input. :D

Thanks for the explaination of multiple 0V rails...makes sense.

Any adivsement on where to tie the 0V rails together would be welcomed. :)


Tie them together where the noise is at a minimum. (Dr Evil laugh continues quietly)

I would look for where the 0V(c) ties to the chassis or a place where a chassis wire and 0V(c) tie together. You are looking for a system reference point.

--Ethan
 
hehhehheh...(Dr. Evil quiet laugh turns into a grotesque muffled squeal)

There is no point on the chassis where they tie together. We've been through this. With the power umbilical disconnected there is no continuity in the chassis between the chassis itself and the three 0V runs, or between any of the 0V runs. So??? I have to assume that they originally tied together either in the power umbilical or in the original power supply. Is it a bad idea to tie the 0V(D) rail to 0V(C) in the power supply? The schematic shows that's where it happens and everything else is tied together there...

Also, the test light lamp continues to glow constantly and slightly...like a dim ember, and that is with only the meter bridge connected (and of course the motherboard...)
 
Next time my OCD is getting out of control I'm gonna stop by this thread and reassure myself that my OCD isn't really that bad.

Don't ever change!!!

OCD? OCD? Um..."Oh! Cool Desk"? :D:D:D

So back to tying the grounds together...man I thought I had that whole thing licked but its come back to haunt.

Is there a problem that almost all of them are tied in the PSU and then I go and tie them together somewhere else? I thought that was bad...thought there should be one place where they all tie together...if that is the case then 0V(D) should be jumpered to the others in the PSU like the schematic shows, but then I don't understand if that will not accomplish what we want noise-wise...:confused:

Maybe I'll take another look at the mother PCB's in the M-___ and see if there is a jumper somewhere that is broken, or if there was a jumper that got ripped off or something...I've looked close at those PCB's many times, but I wasn't necessarily looking for that, and half of the fiber-board bottom covers were torn off when I got it so maybe something happened in conjunction with that...If I do end up tying them together in the mixer, the mother PCB would be the place to do it I think.

I'll also study the PCB layouts for the M-520 and see if I can come up with where they tie together in the M-520...

Help... :eek:
 
Can He Fix It?

Yes he can!.........:eek:;)
 

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GND, 0V(c), 0V(d)

I got a chance to measure on my M520 the 3 grounds. Coming out of the PS cable are GND, 0V(c) and 0V(d).

I was worried that Tascam would do something bad like tie the grounds together in the cable but that is not the case. Good Tascam, Good.

Measuring at the mixer end of the cable from the PS I find that GND and 0V(c) are tied together (in the PS). But that 0V(d) is not tied to them. This is as we wold expect based on Cory's photo.

Moving onto the power connector on the back on the Mixer I find that all 3 grounds are tied together. ie 0V(d) is tied to 0V(c) in the mixer.

Where are they tied together? We have not found that yet....

And it makes sense that they are tied together both for the noise immunity and because Cory has shown us that the LED lights up when they are not.

So best advise now is to just tie them anywhere and keep going on getting the mixer sorted out and running. Then as experience grows and more info is available tie them at a better place (once you know where that is).

Regards, Ethan
 
Thanks for the investigative field report, Ethan! :D

So best advise now is to just tie them anywhere...

Hmm...my piece of paper clip jammed between the solder blobs associated with the 0V(C) and 0V(D) pads on the first meter amp PCB seems to be working pretty good...I think my work here is done! ;):p

Kidding. You know me...I'm going to probably try and figure out where they tie together in the M-520...OCDOCDOCDOCD :eek:

If I can't figger it out pretty quick-like I'll just pick a logical point...:o
 
shaddup dr. evil...lookitcheckit

So yeah I pulled out the M-520 schematics to see if I could find where the 0V rails tie together in the mixer...for those of you that would like to follow along, I've put up links before to M-520 schemos over in my M-520 Story thread. I can link more specifics if needed...just not convenient right now as I'm posting using a mobile device...

ANYWAY...

Look at sector G3 on page 4-13 of the M-520 manual...right there on the Buss Ampl. PCB in that sector you see two 0V rails coming together...they aren't labeled, so I chased 'em back to confirm my suspicion that they are 0V(C) and 0V(D)...

So the top one that goes to P15 of the Mother (A) PCB...flip to 4-4 and there in sector D4 you see connector P15 connects to every stinkin' ground for the PGM busses as well as the SOLO buss...they also aren't labeled, but that's all audio so you can assume 0V(C) right? Not good enough for this OCD veteran...I just chased one example like P4 to the Input Ampl. PCB...so flip to:

4-15 and look at sector C9...that's an assign switchrack on the channel card...lotsa heavy black lines there, but follow them back to P6 and the rails are labeled...yep...0V(C)...you also see 0V(D) but that is for the SOLO LED's...

Okay. So back to 4-13 and we now know that the upper 0V lead is 0V(C)...well now what about the lower one that comes from P23 of the Mother (B) PCB?

Flip to 4-9 and there's P23 in sector D1...follow the 0V up annnnd *boom*...0V(D). ;)

So to review, go back to 4-13 sector G3 and we have just confirmed that, schematically the two 0V leads that come together there are 0V(C) and 0V(D).

So my first thoughts about this are that the tie-up happens downstream of the channel strips...this sort of fits with the M-___ where the 0V(D) doesn't even go to the channel strips but only to the master Control Module and the Meter Bridge...So tenatively I'm thinking about tying those two together on the motherboard ...

Thoughts anybody?
 
DO it

Sounds like a good place.

Good work tracing that down.

--Ethan
 
In fact...

Now that I've had some sleep, the tie-up HAS to happen on either the motherboard or in the wiring from power connector to TO the motherboard...the only other places would be the meter bridge and that just don't seem right, or in the Control Module, and that DEFINITELY ain't right...IfI did that then every time I pulled the Control Module out the peak LED's would go batty.

So my final question is: do I need to, or is it adviseable to tie all three 0V runs and the mixer chassis together, or just the two 0V runs??
 
There's that laugh again....

Downloading .pdf now, reading later.

In the meantime, what about this for a possible tie-together point? This is on the underside. All three 0V runs are right next to each other, plus pretty close to the same structural member to which the chassis ground is connected...?

The trick is going to be trying to solder something to those braids...the heat dissipation is tremendous so its hard to get the joint to heat up good...:mad:
 

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Thanks for the rabbit trail, Ethan... :)

So naturally I haven't done much with the M-___ the past couple-three days, but my mind had been thinking here and there in the background about the whole ground-tie thing. I read that article a couple times that you linked a few posts ago, Ethan...I highly recommend it. It has got some history bits in there and it isn't just about grounding, but rather the whole subject of balanced and unbalanced cabling and connectivity and spells out the mess we're in very well. Well written. Before I read it I thought there was balanced and unbalanced; nothing more. I now realize there is right and wrong ways to do it, and that much of what you'll find in the marketplace doesn't do it right and then since there are differing ways to do it wrong the whole problem is compounded when you try and put all the stuff together. Balanced systems with balanced cabling done the right way (where the shield connects to chassis ground at both ends and does NOT act as a return path for audio signal) should never hum or buzz...but we've all dealt with hum and buzz in balanced line right? At least I know I have...so we get into band-aid fixes like ground lifts and isolation transformers to deal with a problem that shouldn't be there in the first place if the industry could agree and standardize on a proper convention...really, really interesting.

Read it.

So out of curiosity I looked at the mic in on the M-___...maybe I'm getting this all wrong but pin two is the shield and is connected to the audio ground, 0V(C), not the chassis ground. The M-500 mixers are the same way (looking at page 4-15 of the schematis). Not a deal breaker but interesting, and I'm not sure I understand how the ideal applies to that input...should there be a fourth conductor then as shield to chassis, and does pin 2 on the mic connect to it's chassis?

I'll probably read it again and get out the DMM and do some probing...

But another thing the article really kind of cleared the fog on is all the different kind of grounds:
  • audio grounds: 0V reference voltages for +/- rails in the audio path like in opamps and such like the 0V(C) we have been discussing
  • signal or noise grounds: similar to the first one but a separate run to keep noisy non-audio circuitry ground-path activity out of the audio chain like the 0V(D) we have been discussing
  • grounds that go to the chassis
  • grounds that go to earth

The last two are connection paths for the first two.

ANYWAY, what does all this have to do with the M-___ you ask? Well the question is still out there as to what to do with tying 0V(D) in with the rest of the grounding scheme. All of the channel modules only use 0V(C)...which begs the question "what happens to the non-audio circuit noise in the channel modules?" And this goes right along with a much earlier observation that the 6V rail also does not go to the channel modules, so all the LED's and such are powered by the 15V rails (different than the M-500 mixers where the 6V rail goes everywhere powering LED's)...maybe Teac hadn't figured that out in the M-___ and I'll be dealing with it (noise), or maybe they came up with some widgety way to iolate noisy circuits within the module. Dunno...but the 6V and 0V(D) rails obviously go to the master Control Module and the meter bridge, so back to the question "where do I tie 0V(D) into the ground scheme?" My current answer is found on pages 5 and 6 of the Rane article, particularly page 6. There it talks about the "star ground scheme", the official way of saying "all grounds need to tie in one place". I don't understand why Teac broke this simple rule of thumb with the M-500 mixers...everything but 0V(D) connect to the star in the PS-520, and 0V(D) is tied to 0V(C) in the Buss Master section...why did they do this? I'm sure there is a good reason, and I'm sure it has to do with avoiding noise entering the audio path...well, I see no evidence that they did the same thing in the M-___, and the M-___ is a very different creature than the M-500 mixers. So since it is a different creature, and since I cannot find where 0V(D) and 0V(C) have ever tied together in the mixer, I'm going to assume that the original PSU for the M-___ held a complete star ground scheme that included 0V(D), and this is a base ideal according to the Rane article. I'm assuming that the worst that can happen if I do this is that unwanted noise will enter the audio path and then I go back to the drawing board. But the star ground scheme is the ideal and I can't see that they did different in the M-___ so I'm going to start there unless anybody advises otherwise.

Since 0V(D) is isolated within the chassis of the PS-520, am I risking any damage by installing a jumper between terminal 7 of the PS PCB and the main ground trace?

I'm assuming not, and I will look closer and try to come to a comfortable answer myself, but input here would help me get there much faster and to a greater degree. ;)
 
Well done Grasshopper - Spread your wings

I see no problem with joining them in the PS. Good place to start.

Pin 3 hot predates the pin 2 hot standard. Tascam used pin 3 hot for many years. I recall that Beck set me straight on that not that long ago.

I tend to use "custom" cables rather than rewire the XLR - I have been tempted to change. Balanced done properly will only see a phase change. (a rare thing)

That app note is (as you noted) well done. For new things we can follow it.

XLR have 4 connections The body of the XLY which is tied to the case. , Pin 1 which is the shield and the return for phantom power if needed, pin 2 which is the hot lead and ping 3 which is the cold lead.

Hot and cold only makes sense in a non-balanced system (pseudo balanced?)
In a truly balanced system pin 2 is at 0 degrees phase and pin 3 at 180 degrees phase. ie when the signal goes positive pin 2 is driven positive and pin 3 is driven negative.

Regards, Ethan

PS You are almost there in respect to understanding grounds... Remember that grounds are only 0V at the reference point. the resistance between the reference point and where you tap into the ground causes that point to be a different voltage (ohm's law strikes again) Change the current flowing through the ground bus (like a LED flashing) and you change the voltage at the ground tap point. We don't want that on the audio return.
 
Pin 3 hot predates the pin 2 hot standard. Tascam used pin 3 hot for many years. I recall that Beck set me straight on that not that long ago.

Yeah...I got hit with that shortly after I got my 48 and 58...Made some short snakes to interface one of the decks with the dbx 150X's, so XLR ~ 1/4" TRS. Can't remember what flagged me that the deck his pin 3 hot, but I swapped 2 & 3 in the XLR's...

XLR have 4 connections The body of the XLY which is tied to the case. , Pin 1 which is the shield and the return for phantom power if needed, pin 2 which is the hot lead and ping 3 which is the cold lead.

Huh! And that's what I thought, but I'm getting really confused with the way it is shown on the Input Ampl. PCB schemo for the M-500 mixers...Look at 4-15 and am I seeing things or does that show pin 2 to shield to 0V(C)???

I notice that a lot of XLR cable-mount connectors will have a lug to connect the shell to shield, but most pre-made cables have nothing connected to it, or have the braided shield in the cable split and half going to pin 1 and the other half going to the shell lug...does proper balanced mic or line cable have 3 conductors and a shield then? Like + and - conductors, a drain wire and a braided shield?

You are almost there in respect to understanding grounds... Remember that grounds are only 0V at the reference point. the resistance between the reference point and where you tap into the ground causes that point to be a different voltage

Is that...why...there is about a 0.67VDC differential between 0V(C) and 0V(D) when measured at the PS-520 output connector??

I think I understand the whole "ground" less than it may seem...I need analogies.
 
floating - stray currents

The voltage 0.67 that you measured was a result of leakage currents flowing through all the stray resistances that tied 0V(c) and 0V(d) together. That would be dirt, PCB leakage, fingerprints ans so on. You are using a high impedence meter so the meter does not load the circuit down much which allows megohms of stray resistance to float to 0.67 volts. (meters measure by taking some of the electrons and completing the circuit through the meter. High impedence meters require very few electrons) This implies that a different meter wouuld give you a different reading as well as changes inthe weather (eg humidity) and perhaps the phase of the moon.

The diagram on 4-15 indeed does show pin 2 to the shield on that connector. However on diagram 4-18 pin 2 on that connector goes to XLR pin 1....

How is that for a curve ball?

XLR 1 shield
XLR 2 cold
XLR 3 hot

Next time you (or I) have the back of the 520 open we need to document the XLR wiring. Looking specifically for how the shield and XLR are grounded.

Also, it may be that just reversing the XLR to IO PCB connector could turn the 520 into a pin2 hot machine....

REgards, Ethan
 
Grounding examples

Take a look at the schematic and manual pdf for the RANE MS1b preamp. It shows how RANE is implementing the grounding scheme that they promote in the tech note I pointed you to.

http://www.rane.com/ms1b.html

The MS1B represents the top of the line instrument preamp without frills and hype by the way.

-Ethan
 
Leakage currents...oh yes...we dealt with that when I was getting the PS-520 that goes to my M-520 going...remember that? I was getting voltage between the case and...um...something...probably 0V(D). So I think I get it...If I measured current between 0V(C) and 0V(D) it would be very small right (assuming the voltage is the result of leakage current)?

I'll look at 4-18...that's weird, but I guess I'll chalk it up the list of errors in the M-520 manual...not a lot, but they're there, yes?

Yes, if you have a small (very small) screwdriver you can easily swap the leads for pins 2 and 3 in the 3-pin connector that goes from the I/O PCB to the channel card making it pin 2 hot...nice idea, Ethan. ;)

I could do the same with my 48 and 58 too then. :)

I'll look at that preamp manual.

Thanks!
 
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