Tascam 58-OB Story...

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AK, I neglected to specify that the compressor has a built-in DI. Not the best, but sufficed for what I was doing...not really worried about that right now...more worried about the clickities on track 5 coming off the sync head...:(
 
Clickities

Okay...anybody have some suggestions?

  • I swapped channel cards and the clickities still come off of track 5 when monitoring the sync head.
  • I'm assuming it is not my output cabling because if it were, it wouldn't matter whether I was monitoring via the sync or repro head, and the clickities aren't there when listening off the repro head.
  • I'm assuming it is not my input cabling because it only happens on track 5, and the clickities are present on sections of tape that are virgin (and therefore I also believe the clickities are not printed to tape...I will confirm this by flipping the tape over and reproducing to see if the clickities come off of track 4 on a virgin section of tape, or if they come off of 4 and 5).
  • I applied DeoxIT to the sockets on the headstack PCB.

I will try to post up some audio of the phenomenon tonight.
 
just a thought-- have you thoroughly demagnetized both heads?
One of the AES papers on the MRL site says that it's possible for a head to be partially magnetized (ie some channels, but not others) and head magnetization is a possible cause of click-y sounds.
i would have guessed the relays if you hadn't already tried swapping cards..
good luck.
 
I did demag them, but I can certainly try it again. This is a new issue...wasn't doing it recently when I have been working on calibration. I'll try it.

Thanks, Pete.
 
Yes, AK, that's correct, and I'm reasonably certain it is not my input or output cabling or hardware. I believe it is internal, and I believe it is not on tape, but occuring in the output audio path internally on the 58...
 
Ok have you tried recording to track 5 and then listening back on repro? Forgive me if you already covered this just trying to narrow down the area of the trouble as much as possible. I've been fighting an issue with track 4 on my Otari that may or may not be similar. I had one of those not nearly enough coffee in the universe days.

AK
 
Yes...the problem only presents on the sync head, not on the repro head which tells me iits not a problem with my cabling on the output side or my monitoring hardware.
 
The clicketies are multiplying...

This...is...wierd.

I flipped the tape over, wound to a totally untouched spot on the tape, pressed PLAY monitoring the sync head and guess what? The clicketies were now on track 4 (also faintly on track 5), now even when monitoring the repro head. :eek: The clickities are on the tape... :mad:

I wound to the spot on the reel where I did my test recording last night and, of course, the clicketies are still there too, but they seem to be multiplying! The sections of tape that have had more passes are getting, uh...clicketier. So now I still don't know what's going on, except that my test song sounds better played backwards...

Is it possible that, regardless of whether or not the deck is in record mode, the sync head could be putting the clicketies onto the tape with each pass???

I've got a couple .wma audio samples you can listen to if you would please.

One is the "side b" sample with the tape flipped...I created that sample first, so listen to it first. Then there's the "side a" sample with the tape loaded right-way-'round. Hope it helps you to help me! :D;)
 
Maybe this will help somebody...

I had another problem crop up tonight...I was messing with the takeup reel brake a couple nights ago because I noticed it was catching the hub. I think I loosened it up too much. Watch this 3.5Mb video. In the video you can see that, with short RTZ runs (5-10 seconds in REW mode), the takeup reel would coast a bit longer when the transport reached zero, disengaging the tension arms...by the end of the video I had a hunch it had to do with the takeup brake. I fiddled with it a little and it is better. So, what was frustrating at first turned out to be something that could maybe help somebody.
 
Weird! I would suggest bulk erase and demag that sucker and see if it is still there (assuming you haven't done all that already).


AK
 
This is kuh-rayzee...

I had not yet demagnetized the tape path nor bulk erased the tape.

I've done that now.

The clickities are still there :mad:, but now they are on track 8. :eek:

Points of possible interest:

  • The clicks are now more prominent when monitoring the repro head vs. the sync head (this may be a simple mechanical alignment issue).
  • I have confirmed that the clicks are being printed to tape even though there are no record enable buttons depressed, and the deck is in PLAY mode not REC mode. I cycled PLAY ~ RTZ a bunch of times from 0:00 to 0:20 and there is now quite a clickety orchestra until 0:20 when it drops off to just a couple "clickety takes" because it layered a click-click-click everytime I played from 0:00 to 0:20.
  • The only things I have done since the clicketies were on track 5 is bulk erase the tape, demag the tape path, and I checked the bias tuning on each amp card. That involved (A) powering the deck down, (B) pulling an amp card, (C) inserting the extender card and plugging in the amp card, (D) powering the deck on, (E) putting the deck in REC mode with all 8 record-enable switches latched (on/engaged), (F) checking the L4 bias amp voltage and tweaking as necessary, (G) stopping and powering down the deck, pulling the extender card and reinserting the amp card and back to the first step for the rest of the channels.

That's it. Could it still be a demag issue? See my other post about my demag technique.

For those that haven't heard the clicketies, it is a click at about 2-3Hz. It is steady and even. Links to audio samples 3 posts ago...

Oh I hope somebody can help...:(
 
now on track 8?!? Ummm.....


errr.......




Crap, clean and demag again, SOMETHING is causing that man. What do you have hooked up to the 58 right now? Try disconnecting everything and recording aka erasing. It could still be a magnetization issue, and it DID move after you demagged the heads. You aren't wearing one of those Austin Powers Secret Decoder rings are you? or any magnetic jewelry, Hand Phasers, Light Sabers or other new fangled technology?


AK
 
Pulled all the inputs out of the deck...still clickety on track 8...

demagged each head (starting 2 ~ 3 feet out, moving in slowly, slowly moving back and forth over each track of a head with the probe cover touching the head, and then slowly moving back out to 2 ~ 3 feet, then repeating for the other two heads...maybe overkill but...). Each head probably got 10 ~ 15 seconds each.

The probe sticks to the heads when I get in close. It is hard to control the advance or retreat rate because of this so once I get in close (like 1/8 inch away) it sucks up to the head quick...same on the way back out. Is this dangerous?

Also, I neglected to mention earlier that the clickety occurs even in EDIT mode...If I'm scrubbing the tape slowly it is a click...click...click if you know what I mean...the clicks are tied to the rate of the tape, which makes sense since they are printed on the tape.

I also swapped the outputs of tracks 7 and 8, again to confirm what I think I already know, that it is output cabling rather than the deck, and it was no surprise that the clicks were present on channel 7 of my mixer once I made the switch, so it is not the cabling but rather the deck.

AK, thank you again for contributing...it is keeping me going. I've seriously had a couple moments these past couple days starting to question why I'm going through all this...I've already been through all the mind-benders with my digital system...it works flawlessly...very stable...my heart says analog but my mind says to put it away, at least for awhile.
 
That sucking/sticking thing is normal, that's the steel/iron in the record and playback heads - just be careful, and remember that the soft tip on the handi-mag is to prevent damage if it does touch. We won't discuss the crappy demag tool I use, let it suffice to say it does work as it should so I keep using it :D.

As to the clicking, the only other thing I can suggest is that it is either something in the unit - perhaps a specific card, since you have swapped them around - or something in the environment, like the wiring in your walls, your neighbors illegally overpowered CB/HAM radio set etc. Even something silly like a magnetized screwdriver in the area........



AK
 
AK et al:

This is interesting...

Okay...trying to remember the process here...if I am remembering right, the clicketies were on track 5, I demagged the deck and bulk erased the tape. Then the clicketies were on track 8. I demagged the deck again (carefully giving each head full attention and time), and then put the tape back on, forwarded to what I considered an untouched section of tape, and the clicketies were still on track 8...well course they were...I had not yet bulk erased the tape again! :eek:

You see, I assumed the clicks were new because I REW spooled the tape onto the supply reel from the tails-out spool on the takeup reel...I assumed that if I was playing the tape from a spot I hadn't played the tape before and the clicks were there, then that meant they were being printed at that moment. But I think that may not be the case...let me explain...sometime after my last post I came out to the studio and tried some more things out...I pulled the sync cable out of the back of the 58, and pulled all the output cabling from the deck and just ran one line from track 8 to my monitoring setup, bypassing all non-essential gear (patchbays, noise reduction, etc.). I went to another (so I thought) new section of tape, pressed play...click-click-click...then something you said triggered a thought, AK...

Try disconnecting everything and recording aka erasing.
Click to expand...

I thought "What does happen if I record?" Up to this point I had only been in reproduce mode. So I armed track 8 and put the deck in REC mode monitoring the repro head...I did it on the fly. Click-click-click (sweetbeats holds REC and taps PLAY and.....................silence (except for some soft tape hiss and the sound of the transport...good sounds...).

I tried it again in another section, same thing. Recording silence wiped the clicks and I realized that they were no longer being printed after the careful demagging. I bulk erased the tape again, and all seems well. :) (except now the tape has a low frequency swelling pulse, but I think it is my bulk erase technique...I'll be starting another thread...)

What I think happened is this: I was thinking the clicks were only being printed in play mode, but I think the whole tape was actually being striped with clicketies when I was REW spooling onto the supply reel. :eek:

Hey, if I can hear the clicks in EDIT mode, why couldn't they be printed in spool mode? Its the only thing I can think of.

Anyway, the clicketies seem to be abated. :o
 
I bulk erased the tape again and everything is working as far is clicketies go. :D

I did another 1 minute test recording, 8 tracks of electric bass. I did two versions:


The above are links to 160Kbps .wma files.

I like how the version with the dbx on sounds better, but that may change when my deck gets properly calibrated...I think there is still too much high-end dialed in and that may be why there seems to be a lot of tape hiss on the no noise reduction version. But even outside the hiss I like what the dbx is doing to the low-end punch.

You'll hear some distorting here and there...Some is clipping coming out of the compressor that the bass is plugged into...again, the compressor has a built in DI, and an output level knob. This was the best way I currently have to be able to boost the signal going to the 58, but every now and then it gets a little crunchy. :o

Plus, I'm still not used to how to treat levels when using dbx vs. not, and I think I may have saturated the tape in a couple spots.

Also found out, after recording the third track, that it was my studio lights making the bass hum so badly...so you can hear that coming through pretty good, especially on the dbx version.

Anyway, take it for what it is, a comparison of noise reduction vs. no noise reduction. ;)
 
Pete, thanks!

I actually don't think I have read that article. I've printed it off to read a little later. Anything Jay McKnight has published regarding analog recording is worth reading and keeping on-hand. Thanks!

BTW, all, I forgot to mention how nice it was to mixdown the little sample song. Just mild compression on the bass going into the deck and no processing coming out (except for pans and levels), mixed to stereo through my Yamaha 01X and tracked in Cubase at 24bit 48kHz, and then nothing done to the master file except the conversion to the .wma file. I wanted it to be a straight through comparison...

And I must say, it was so refreshing to watch the VU's dancing on the 58 to program material vs. test tones. :D
 
Glad things are working better! Amazing how missing one step in a process can distort the results....


Kind of sad today, my original Pioneer RT-707 may truly be worn out :(. Thank goodness my dad just gave me his old one, which has about 800 less hours than mine hehe. Still, I toted that first one around for close to 3 decades, sad to see that it may not be repairable now.



AK
 
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