Tascam 48 + ATR tape question/story

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MatDrums

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Hi! First of all, I must say I'm happy to finally join the forum.

Long story, but here it goes:

I bought a Tascam 48 a few months ago. I must say how thrilled I am to be able to record to tape. I’ve been recording digital for the last 10 years and ever since I worked in a high end analog studio with a Studer A820 many years ago, I wanted to go the analog way.

So, after a few weeks of research, I found a decent 48 that I took the chance to buy without trying because the seller was 2 hours away from my home.

Anyways, the machine came with different tapes, some of them I knew were prone to sticky shed, so I was very careful with everything. Of all the different tapes I have, there is a roll of 3M 250 that I really like. Sounds good, no problems whatsoever with shedding, transport, etc. So I made a few recordings on this tape and was very happy with the results and my purchase.

A few weeks later, I decided to purchase a new roll of ATR tape to make sure I could get the best out of my machine. I knew it would probably not be biased for that, but I decided to give it a try and listen to the results I could get.

Here is the situation: ever since I have put the ATR tape on my 48, I never had so many problems: shedding, transport problems (as if the roll of tape was too heavy for the machine – is that possible??), tracks that would not record, major drop outs, heads had to be cleaned every 5 minutes, name it, I got it.

At first, I thought my 48 was the problem and was a bit depressed about the situation, but yesterday, I recorded using the old 3M 250 that came with the machine and guess what: NO PROBLEMS. Nothing. Transport is perfect, no shedding, no drop outs, all the tracks work perfectly.

I emailed ATR this morning and they agree to replace the tape since it could come from a bad batch, but my question is: should I get a roll of tape that could be similar to the 3M 250 (which I don’t think the ATR tape is) or a good batch of ATR will work fine on my beloved 48? What would be the equivalent of the 3M 250 these days?

I enjoy reading this forum a lot. It’s good to see that the analog spirit is alive and well!

Thanks for your input!

Mat
 
more technically knowledgable folks will chime in soon enough, but in the meantime ...

ATR tape is not ideal for a Tascam 48 in general, because it is indeed heavier (although the tension can be adjusted) and because the deck can't really be calibrated up to the level of that tape, i.e., you will get a fairly clean sound from the tape itself. ATR tape is about twice as hot (loud) as Scotch 250, meaning the electronics of the deck will overload before the tape saturates. if you are looking for a very clean sound, and set it up for and track with conservative levels, it SHOULD be fine.

the shedding issue sounds like a bad reel of tape, or it could just be that the deck has wear based on the slitting of the 3M 250 tapes that were used throughout its lifetime.

current tapes that are more compatible with your machine are RMGI 911 and 468. That said, after my experience with several different reels of RMGI 911, I don't personally endorse it ... I don't really want to say anything bad about the company in a public forum, however, my preference is to use NOS tape.

no experience with ATR, but sadly my experience with the RMGI is similar to yours w/ ATR. Perhaps the current manufacturers are kind of still fine-tuning things.

My recommendation: try RMGI 911 and 468 and see if you like either (technically, you should re-bias, but they are probably close enough to throw on and use).

OR, keep your eyes on eBay for some Scotch 250 (although this formula is potentially problematic, but not neccesarily so).
 
I would suspect that slitting is the issue. The 3M tape would have been precision slit to international standards. I don't know about ATR's slitting equipment. If any of it came from the old Ampex/Quantegy factory then there are bound to be tolerance issues.

Ampex's slitting equipment was not as precise as other's equipment, including 3M. Since they couldn't ensure the same precision they built in an error factor to accomodate the "country-laning" of the slitting equipment. You can verify this for yourself by looking at the spec sheets for Ampex/Quantegy tape against other makes and comparing the tape width. Ampex/Quantegy has a wider tolerance. This means that if you have a tape path that has been worn by precision slit tape and then you put Ampex/Quantegy tape on it or vice-versa there can be issues where the tape path has a more narrow wear pattern and you put tape that is just slightly wider and guess what? Edge shed galore and you can have bits of stuff getting all over the place in a hurry.

So, that's just a thought. Also, since the ATR tape is thicker overall it will effect the tape tension and that can exacerbate any edge-shed issues.

Load each tape type up and get a gooooood flashlight and even a magnifying glass and look and see how it fits into the wear groove on the heads and or lifters. We are talking like maybe 2~3 thousandths of an inch but you can see the difference in good light, and that's all the difference you need to make a mess.
 
MatDrums said:
Here is the situation: ever since I have put the ATR tape on my 48, I never had so many problems: shedding, transport problems (as if the roll of tape was too heavy for the machine – is that possible??), tracks that would not record, major drop outs, heads had to be cleaned every 5 minutes, name it, I got it.

At first, I thought my 48 was the problem and was a bit depressed about the situation, but yesterday, I recorded using the old 3M 250 that came with the machine and guess what: NO PROBLEMS. Nothing. Transport is perfect, no shedding, no drop outs, all the tracks work perfectly.

I emailed ATR this morning and they agree to replace the tape since it could come from a bad batch,
Click to expand...


People seem to be crawling out of the woodwork with ATR shedding problems of late. I've recently been through a similar nightmare with ATR. Major shedding and shaving problems even after several passes, clearly defective tape and apparently not good slitting. I understand that some shedding is normal on the first couple passes for this tape, but the probs we had with it went far beyond this. This was my first experience with ATR and it was two reels for a commercial project. Not good!

Glad ATR is willing to replace it...in our case, it was too late to send the reels back and get replacement. The sessions were booked, the band had all taken the week off, the show had to go on and the tape can't just be returned. The band bought it so they're going to contact ATR about the experience first and then I'll also contact them, we'll see what comes of it all.

Question: what was the date on your defective ATR? In our case, both reels were stamped Oct 4 2010 and purchased new from Vintage King at the end of July.

Sorry you had that experience with your machine! In our case it was 1" and was being used on our pro MCI machine which had been carefully aligned/calibrated specifically for these reels. Ultimately, since the ATR had gotten to where it was just wasting studio time, to get the last few songs down in a timely manner I switched them over to a spare length of Quantegy 499 which functioned very well. Eventually the ATR problem subsided to the point where the reels were at least usable for repro with some coaxing and LOTS of stopping and cleaning, but they still make a ridiculous mess of the tape path even after umpteen passes.

On a side note, during those pockets of time when we DID get those reels of ATR to behave long enough to be usable, they did sound very good--big, quiet and smooth. As such, I do hope this was just an abnormally bad batch.

If ATR will replace your reel, might as well give them another shot. I'm not aware of a current production version of 250. Your choices for new tape are the ATR, or RMGI which are modern versions of BASF/EMTEC formulas.
 
I used ATR on my 48 for a while.

The most popular misconception about ATR tape is that you need to set up your deck for a very high operating level. You don't. Mike at ATR says that *most* of his customers run ATR tape at +6. The strange thing about ATR tape and its unique formulation is that it can be run with great results at *any* operating level.

As for the transport, my 48's transport is set up very well so I didn't notice issues with rubbing or *excessive* shedding, however my feeling is that ATR tape is a little too heavy and thick for the 48. The transport just seems bogged down a little. Maybe this wouldn't be an issue if I were just recording a rock band, but the nature of the music I make is that I use the transport extensively and do a ton of overdubs and bounces. In doing this, it seems like my deck struggles a little with ATR tape and I'm not really comfortable with that.

That said, if you get a tape from a good batch (dunno anything about them having bad batches, but for the sake of argument....), you shouldn't have the issues you described with THAT amount of shedding. That's really odd.
 
I would like to thanks everyone for their replies, all very informative stuff!

I am more than willing to give ATR another chance. They confirmed that my tape comes from a bad batch that used a chemical that was past its storage date. I can't tell the date the reel was produced because the code on the reel does not seem to be related to a date, but it was purchased at a local dealer (recording studio) in Montreal last july.

They are starting a new batch next week and they will send me a new reel when it's ready.

With the excellent sercive I got from ATR and their commitment to satisfy their costumers, I certainly hope the tape will behave well on my 48, which it should according to them.

Mat
 
MatDrums said:
I can't tell the date the reel was produced because the code on the reel does not seem to be related to a date, but it was purchased at a local dealer (recording studio) in Montreal last july.
Click to expand...

Was there a green sticker in the bottom corner of the reel's box? That's where ours had the date stamped, though not sure if that's ATR's sticker or Vintage King's.

Do you mean this past July (couple months ago?) That's when our bad reels were purchased--very end of July. It's very good to know they've confirmed a bad batch. I'll relay this to the band so they can try to settle the matter (I'd also like to clean some egg of my face since I'm the one who suggested the ATR).

Glad they're going to send you a fresh reel. Do let us know how that goes!!
 
Hi! I just wanted to make a follow up on the ATR tape issue. I got a new reel of tape from ATR and all my problems have gone away. All tracks work perfectly, no transport problems, no shedding problems, nothing. My 48 is running like it is brand new with this reel of tape so I am very happy.

Mat
 
Happy to hear that you have the problem solved. I have used both RMG & ATR on my 38 and will admit that the ATR has slightly cleaner highs then the RMG. It might be how my deck is set up, I'm not sure.
 
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