Syncing a Tascam 414

  • Thread starter Thread starter famous beagle
  • Start date Start date
famous beagle

famous beagle

Well-known member
Hey y'all, I've got a Tascam 414 cassette multi-tracker, and I want to get some tracks off my Yamaha AW16G hard disk recorder and put them on the 414 to play with. The problem is that I only have one set of stereo outs on the Yamaha, and I have four tracks I want to get over to the 414.

So ... I yanked out this old sync box that I've had laying around for years and have never used. It's a JL Cooper PPS-2, but I don't have the manual for it.

Here it is: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/423664-REG/JLCooper_PPS_2_PPS_2_Plus_Synchronizer.html

Anyway, I've read what the 414 manual has to say on the subject, and all it basically tells you is how to stripe the tape and how to make the connection to the other piece of gear. But my question is ... then what?

I'm assuming the 414 would have to be the master, correct? But ... how will the Yamaha know when my tascam will be on the start of the song? Is the Yamaha chasing the Tascam's counter or something? If so, does that mean that if I hit the counter reset button at any point while I'm tranferring tracks, I'll screw things up?

I've synced my Yamaha AW16G recorder with a Yamaha QY70 sequencer before, but I've never synced to tape. Thanks for any help.
 
When you sync'ed the AW16G with the QY70, was the AW16G master or slave?

The 414 would have SMPTE timecode recorded (striped) onto track 4 (dbx off). The PPS-2 converts that to MIDI timecode (MTC). If the AW16G can slave its "transport" to external MTC, then when you press PLAY on the 414 the AW16G should follow, and stop when you hit STOP on the 414. There will likely be an offset you have to adjust on the AW16G, but that's the basics. The AW16G would not be synchronizing to the counter as that doesn't transmit any data. Its the SMPTE timecode that you record onto track 4 that the AW16G "listens" to (after it is converted to MTC).
 
sweetbeats said:
When you sync'ed the AW16G with the QY70, was the AW16G master or slave?

The 414 would have SMPTE timecode recorded (striped) onto track 4 (dbx off). The PPS-2 converts that to MIDI timecode (MTC). If the AW16G can slave its "transport" to external MTC, then when you press PLAY on the 414 the AW16G should follow, and stop when you hit STOP on the 414. There will likely be an offset you have to adjust on the AW16G, but that's the basics. The AW16G would not be synchronizing to the counter as that doesn't transmit any data. Its the SMPTE timecode that you record onto track 4 that the AW16G "listens" to (after it is converted to MTC).
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure when I synced the 16G to the QY70, the 16G was the master, but I know it can be set to slave as well.

So ... would the process be as follows?

1) Stripe the tape (track 4) with SMPTE
2) Adjust the position on the Yamaha to before the song starts and rewind the tape in the 414 to the beginning (assuming I want to start at the beginning).
3) Make the MIDI connections and settings on the Yamaha and the audio connections from the Yamaha to the 414.
4) Then start recording on the 414. The Yamaha should chase the 414 continuously (assuming the connections are correct).

My question was kind of like "how does the yamaha know where the downbeat is?" But I guess it doesn't really, right? It's just chasing based on whatever counter position it happened to be at when it first sees the SMPTE code, correct?

Also, another question: Do you have to stripe the entire tape with SMPTE, from beginning to end, or is it possible to stripe, say the first 5 minutes to use sync for the first song, but leave track 4 open for the rest of the tape for normal 4-track operation?

This is all so new to me! Thanks
 
1) Stripe the tape (track 4) with SMPTE Yup.
2) Adjust the position on the Yamaha to before the song starts and rewind the tape in the 414 to the beginning (assuming I want to start at the beginning). Yup.
3) Make the MIDI connections and settings on the Yamaha and the audio connections from the Yamaha to the 414. Yup...and don't forget the audio connection from track 4 of the 414 to the PPS-2
4) Then start recording on the 414. The Yamaha should chase the 414 continuously (assuming the connections are correct). Yyyup.

My question was kind of like "how does the yamaha know where the downbeat is?" But I guess it doesn't really, right? It's just chasing based on whatever counter position it happened to be at when it first sees the SMPTE code, correct?
Click to expand...
Right. The Yamaha doesn't care about the music. You tell it "follow this timecode signal...do what it does...stop when it stops...go when it goes, okay?" It knows where the 414 is positionally in the time frame because SMPTE code is made up of hours, minutes, seconds, frames and sub-frames, so if you forward to 3:32 into your song on the 414 and press PLAY, the Yamaha goes "Oh I have to go there now! OKAY! PANT-PANT-PANT" like a loopy but faithful dog. And you are also right that when you press REC on the 414 and then PLAY on the AW16G, the audio will land at some point amidst the code stream on track 4 of the 414. Doesn't matter where it is at because once the two units are locked, the first two tracks on the 414 will play back in sync with what's on the AW16G, and that's how you can transfer that last track...route it to an output on the back of the AW16G, patch that output to the appropriate input on the 414 and record away...it'll be synchronized because the AW16G is locked to that positional SMPTE timecode on the 414. Make sense?

Also, another question: Do you have to stripe the entire tape with SMPTE, from beginning to end, or is it possible to stripe, say the first 5 minutes to use sync for the first song, but leave track 4 open for the rest of the tape for normal 4-track operation?
Click to expand...
Logically, yes you can. Usually you stripe a tape from beginning to end, but as long as you are sure you won't run out of code when you are transferring tracks, you should be fine.
 
sweetbeats said:
1) Stripe the tape (track 4) with SMPTE Yup.
2) Adjust the position on the Yamaha to before the song starts and rewind the tape in the 414 to the beginning (assuming I want to start at the beginning). Yup.
3) Make the MIDI connections and settings on the Yamaha and the audio connections from the Yamaha to the 414. Yup...and don't forget the audio connection from track 4 of the 414 to the PPS-2
4) Then start recording on the 414. The Yamaha should chase the 414 continuously (assuming the connections are correct). Yyyup.


Right. The Yamaha doesn't care about the music. You tell it "follow this timecode signal...do what it does...stop when it stops...go when it goes, okay?" It knows where the 414 is positionally in the time frame because SMPTE code is made up of hours, minutes, seconds, frames and sub-frames, so if you forward to 3:32 into your song on the 414 and press PLAY, the Yamaha goes "Oh I have to go there now! OKAY! PANT-PANT-PANT" like a loopy but faithful dog. And you are also right that when you press REC on the 414 and then PLAY on the AW16G, the audio will land at some point amidst the code stream on track 4 of the 414. Doesn't matter where it is at because once the two units are locked, the first two tracks on the 414 will play back in sync with what's on the AW16G, and that's how you can transfer that last track...route it to an output on the back of the AW16G, patch that output to the appropriate input on the 414 and record away...it'll be synchronized because the AW16G is locked to that positional SMPTE timecode on the 414. Make sense?


Logically, yes you can. Usually you stripe a tape from beginning to end, but as long as you are sure you won't run out of code when you are transferring tracks, you should be fine.
Click to expand...

Great, thanks so much for your help!
 
sweetbeats said:
1) Stripe the tape (track 4) with SMPTE Yup.
2) Adjust the position on the Yamaha to before the song starts and rewind the tape in the 414 to the beginning (assuming I want to start at the beginning). Yup.
3) Make the MIDI connections and settings on the Yamaha and the audio connections from the Yamaha to the 414. Yup...and don't forget the audio connection from track 4 of the 414 to the PPS-2
4) Then start recording on the 414. The Yamaha should chase the 414 continuously (assuming the connections are correct). Yyyup.


Right. The Yamaha doesn't care about the music. You tell it "follow this timecode signal...do what it does...stop when it stops...go when it goes, okay?" It knows where the 414 is positionally in the time frame because SMPTE code is made up of hours, minutes, seconds, frames and sub-frames, so if you forward to 3:32 into your song on the 414 and press PLAY, the Yamaha goes "Oh I have to go there now! OKAY! PANT-PANT-PANT" like a loopy but faithful dog. And you are also right that when you press REC on the 414 and then PLAY on the AW16G, the audio will land at some point amidst the code stream on track 4 of the 414. Doesn't matter where it is at because once the two units are locked, the first two tracks on the 414 will play back in sync with what's on the AW16G, and that's how you can transfer that last track...route it to an output on the back of the AW16G, patch that output to the appropriate input on the 414 and record away...it'll be synchronized because the AW16G is locked to that positional SMPTE timecode on the 414. Make sense?


Logically, yes you can. Usually you stripe a tape from beginning to end, but as long as you are sure you won't run out of code when you are transferring tracks, you should be fine.
Click to expand...

Hey sweetbeats,

Ok I did a quick test just to see if I could get it to work, and it is working, but I have a question.

I striped the 414 tape with SMPTE. Didn't do the whole tape, but I did a good minute more than I needed. I started striping pretty much from the beginning of the tape (a second or two after the leader).

I rewound the tape to the beginning, and positioned the Yamaha at the beginning. I made the connections, pressed play on the 414, and sure enough the Yamaha jumped into action. The only thing was, it didn't start playing from the beginning; it jumped to 3:25 or something and started from there. It did that each time I tried rewinding the 414 and playing from the beginning.

I know you mentioned something about the "offset." Is this something to do with that? I noticed that on the Yamaha, it's set to 00:00:00:00.

Thanks
 
Ah yes.

That's where the offset comes in.

You may have to scan your manual for the term "offset". If you don't have a digital version of your manual you can get it from Yamaha in .pdf format and then do the search function in Acrobat for "offset".

Basically what the offset does is tell the yamaha to start at a different spot with reference to the SMPTE timecode position on the 414. So the MTC position is 00:00:00:00 (HH:MM:SS:FF) on the AW16G when you are 3:25 into the song? Then when you find out how to set the offset, set it to -3:25 or whatever you want to set it at, and then song timeline reference on the AW16G will start at -3:25 from the MTC position 00:00:00:00. MTC position 00:00:00:00 will be at the beginning of your song. Does that make sense?
 
sweetbeats said:
Ah yes.

That's where the offset comes in.

You may have to scan your manual for the term "offset". If you don't have a digital version of your manual you can get it from Yamaha in .pdf format and then do the search function in Acrobat for "offset".

Basically what the offset does is tell the yamaha to start at a different spot with reference to the SMPTE timecode position on the 414. So the MTC position is 00:00:00:00 (HH:MM:SS:FF) on the AW16G when you are 3:25 into the song? Then when you find out how to set the offset, set it to -3:25 or whatever you want to set it at, and then song timeline reference on the AW16G will start at -3:25 from the MTC position 00:00:00:00. MTC position 00:00:00:00 will be at the beginning of your song. Does that make sense?
Click to expand...

Yeah that makes sense, it just seems so arbitrary. I was thinking that the Yamaha would naturally read the beginning of the SMPTE stripe as 00:00:00:00 and therefore start there, and you'd use the offset if you didn't want the Yamaha to start at the beginning. But I guess that's not the way it works.

I have the Yami manual. I'll check into the offset deal. Thanks
 
sweetbeats said:
So the MTC position is 00:00:00:00 (HH:MM:SS:FF) on the AW16G when you are 3:25 into the song?
Click to expand...

Well, not exactly... I don't think.

The MTC on the Yamaha says 00:00:00:00 (because I've rewound it to the beginning). Then I start the 414 from the beginning. As soon as the Yamaha sees (or hears) the SMPTE code, it jumps to 3:25 and starts from there. The 414 song is at the beginning, but the Yamaha is playing from 3:25, so I think it's just basically the opposite of what you said above.

In other words, the MTC is 00:03:25:00 on the AW16G when I'm at the beginning of the song on the 414.

At any rate, I think what you said still applies. I'll need to find out the adjustment and make it with the offset.
 
Another question with this.

I striped my track 4 with SMPTE, and I've realized now that the sync tone is still audible even when I turn track 4 all the way down. It's quieter, but still audible. (And I only have the master LR mix being monitored, not the tape cue. I've turned down the tape cue all the way on track 4 just to be safe.)

Does this just mean I striped the track at too hot of a level?

I mean, the way it is now, it's not useable, because the sync tone is audible on quiet parts of the music (and probably always audible with phones on).
 
I know with open reel recorders, you typically want to track the SMPTE code at -10VU. If you tracked it at 0VU or somewhere around there then yes it is too hot and you will have crosstalk issues especially on narrow cassette format.

I apologize for neglecting to mention that...:(
 
sweetbeats said:
I know with open reel recorders, you typically want to track the SMPTE code at -10VU. If you tracked it at 0VU or somewhere around there then yes it is too hot and you will have crosstalk issues especially on narrow cassette format.

I apologize for neglecting to mention that...:(
Click to expand...

Yeah I think I did track it around 0VU or so. Not your fault! Thanks! :)
 
Let us know! ;)

So cool to take an "obsolete, outdated piece of yesteryear" (read with sarcastic tone) and to be able to integrate it with contemorary technology y'know?
 
Funny how much the term 'obsolete' is thrown around these days. If it works and you can use it, I say it isn't obsolete. The real problem is many people just want to push a button and make everything work perfectly with no effort... and of course life doesn't work that way and never will.


AK
 
WeDieYoung said:
Is it possible to do the same and sync the 414 to logic?
Click to expand...

You can make Logic follow the 414, but the 414 most likely can't act as the slave. Remember that you'd only get 3 tracks though, since one must hold the timecode. Depends whether it's worth it, I guess.
 
+1 to that.

The 414 can only serve as the master in the sync relationship, and you'd only have 3 tracks left after striping track 4 with code.
 
However, since you'll be synched, you could fill up the 3 tracks, bounce them to Logic, then fill up three more tracks on the 414, bounce them to logic, repeat ad infinitum. Granted, you'll be digitizing your analog tracks, but at least they'll have been recorded analog in the first place (which, in my opinion, is the most important thing).
 
Annnnnnd +1 to THAT.

I just read my last post...not sure why I even posted because I added nothing...that goes for THIS post too. I'm gonna shaddap now.

Maybe I just like the thought of a DAW chasing a 414 all compact like on the desk...and all the people going "You did what??"
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top