My Corona
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mjbphotos
Moderator
I don't think many people understand the problem with 'letting it run its course' - our hospitals' capabilities of handling the sheer volume of patients. Even the hospitals have not thought about it. Yes, the panic for 'more ventilators' is happening, but what do the ventilators use? Oxygen. The big bulk oxygen supplies that hospitals have can only deliver a certain volume of oxygen gas at a time. They use large vaporizers to gasify the liquid O2. These systems are sized based on the normal maximum patient capacity of the facility. Now they are looking at doubling up the capacity by adding beds. Even if they have the ventilators, the O2 system cannot supply 2X the amount of oxygen. So to supplement that, they need oxygen cylinders. A standard O2 cylinder (those shoulder-high ones you see everywhere) will last one patient half a day (at 10 liters/minute flow). So 2 cylinders per person per day. 100 beds/patients = 200 cylinders. These temporary hospitals being set up all over the place will need oxygen too. There just is not enough oxygen to go around.
Think about that when the doctors are making the decisions on who to save (you? your parents?) and who not to.
Think about that when the doctors are making the decisions on who to save (you? your parents?) and who not to.
I think also that the Swedes might just be in better health generally, and naturally a little more isolated.
---------- Update ----------
Nope, drive thrus are still open.
---------- Update ----------
America may be on a forced diet, eating healthy food?
No more supersize me
Nope, drive thrus are still open.
Gtoboy
Well-known member
The hospital my friend is a surg tech at is relatively small and they have three 750 cu foot oxygen tanks on the premises and though i see your point, oxygen supply is really less of a problem then lack of beds or ventilators
Gtoboy
Well-known member
America may be on a forced diet, eating healthy food?
No more supersize me
So few people seem to be able to cook anything but packaged meals which are just as unhealthy/fattening as fast food
gecko zzed
Grumpy Mod
Comparisons between countries are interesting, and often better policies and practices are believed to be the reason why one country would seem to be doing better than another. However, there are other factors (e.g. geographic isolation, as you have noted) that make comparisons difficult. Another couple of factors are population density and the mobility of the population.
Sweden is still on an upward curve. Its rate of infection is 551 cases per 1m population, which is a bit more than UK's of 497.
CoolCat
Well-known member
Yeah...did you also see that in one of the news clips...they actually eat fucking bats.
.
Ive been enlightened (or darkened?) about "wet markets" by a few who seem to know about these places, from reading more in depth than I care to.
But fixing the source seems kind of like a high priority doesnt it? I mean whats the point of all of this global crisis if China and other Wet Market chops open back up. Shoudnt it be considered mass-murder or something? Global-Murderer? And CHina is the source of at least 3 of the last large crisis's like this and seems they arent getting reprimanded or held accountable.
Should they be financially liable in any way?
Its kind of a test to my Pro-Choice stance, I mean if they want to die of Wet Markets and Disease thats ok with me, but then theres the spreading thing.
Like tobacco smoking, is self lung damage and thats a persons choice, but 2nd hand smoke is another.
In the Wet Market case how many glabal outbreaks does the human population allow before they tell these Wet Markets like "hey man! youve got to start doing something about this bat shit and disease dinner stuff?"
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
That's really what you're focused on...? Sorry, I'm just not living with that kind of fear.
It will be what will be, and they will make the decisions they need to. You're apparently looking for some kind of guarantee, that they will be able to save your life in the event of you being that sick that you need a ventilator.
I look at that from the perspective the majority recovers from this virus, so the odds are on my side...and if I was going to worry about that slim chance I might die because they were short a ventilator...then heck, I wouldn't leave my house ever, virus or no virus, because there's a lot of greater risk out there that can kill you every day.
So we're trying keep the hospitals from overload...and in the process we may destroy millions of lives if we will lose the economy and possibly go into a true depression.
When you can't find bare necessities, and not much food, and people suffering from mental depression along with the economic depression, and everyone fighting to find work just to get by, and complete loss of lifestyles and collapse of many businesses, taking with them the lives of many who depended on them...
...then let me know how much that worry about the ventilators being available is still on your mind.
Right now we are ALREADY making that decision, who will live or die sooner...it's just that most people are only focused on what is immediately in front of them.
So when this virus is over or pretty much under control...then the ugly reality of a destroyed economy will finally set in....and that's not just some wild hypostasizing on my part...already experts are predicting a serious economic collapse the longer we stay shut down, and that we're just walking into it by our own decision making.
The government is not going to be able to bail us out indefinitely...if you call a $1200 check any kind of bailout.
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TalismanRich
Well-known member
The number of celebrities who are testing positive is growing.
Jackson Browne
Placido Domingo
Rapper Scarface
Laura Bell Bundy
Slim Thug
Harvey Weinstein
Colton Underwood
Charlotte Lawrence
Kristofer Hivju
Tom Hanks (and wife)
Andy Cohen
Daniel Dae Kim
Surely there are more to come.
Jackson Browne
Placido Domingo
Rapper Scarface
Laura Bell Bundy
Slim Thug
Harvey Weinstein
Colton Underwood
Charlotte Lawrence
Kristofer Hivju
Tom Hanks (and wife)
Andy Cohen
Daniel Dae Kim
Surely there are more to come.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
TBH...and I'm not directing this at you...but I find it so annoying that the media has to let us all know when a celebrity gets infected.
It's as though it's supposed to mean something more because a celebrity got infected.
Those are the people who have full/immediate access to any kind of healthcare support they need...it's like rubbing it in.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Yes, that is true, and something they expected...but if their numbers end up pretty much at the same levels as the USA and UK, etc...yet Sweden maintains a relatively normal lifestyle with only minor restrictions and just plenty of awareness and caution...
...they will have come out ahead of all the other countries who opted for the shutdown mode in the order to save some more lives, and in the process killed off much of their countries' livelihood.
For me...completely destroying the normal way of life across the board for years to come, in order to maybe save some more lives now...isn't a justifiable tradeoff.
Yes, that may sound cold...but if we lose many more lives from the aftermath due to a variety of conditions brought about by a hard economic downturn...well, they will have something to talk about and analyze for decades...much more so than the topic of the virus spread.
The celebrity infections are to drive it home. Oh, no! Our “ Hero’s” are falling! The invincible are falling prey. We’re all doomed!!!
All part of media fear mongering.
Look at how all the world reacted when Magic Johnson was diagnosed with HIV. All of a sudden a ‘lifestyle disease confined to a small portion of the population went mainstream and put everyone into fear.
No matter how real a situation is the mainstream media will always paint the picture much worse to generate maximum distress.
Fear P**n. And sadly people are addicted to it.
Gtoboy
Well-known member
The purpose of the media is to sell soap. If you can get people to fear something they will remain glued to the tube, increasing ratings, increasing the price of ad time increasing the profits.
The people who are making the decisions on who has to stay at home and lose their income do not have anything to risk-they will still get their salaries, their health care, etc.
CoolCat
Well-known member
why is it any different than the normal media flooding us with Kardashian crisis's news like "cellulite on Kims ass was seen in a photo!!"
I find it normal that the famous chosen ones will be the US face on anything that happens.
Im glad Italy is getting some positive signs, Seattle Washington is where we had the US #1 Wuhan virus confirmed person, and Washington is slightly getting better I heard today...not much.
China is opening things up with caution. Maybe June for the US?
I'll guess the US will be a long drawn out mess as it floats across the nation hitting cities and then fanning out to small towns slowly like usually happens in the US. Bit Nowheresville Montana wont make the media fake news.
Medicine and vaccine progress by the experts, faster tests for Wuhan virus, will be the anti-Fear pill. imo.
Logically if Wuhan and others open up the Wet Markets , and China and other leaders do nothing, they will continue to produce new virus's to share with the world. Or was it intentional, military grade lab virus secretly carried all over on purpose? and what about Kims cellulite bump on her ass?
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Well that stuff is even more annoying, but overall, it's just nonsense stuff.
I just think that any time there is something important, it's annoying when the media needs to put a celebrity face on it...like I could care less what Joe Actor has to say when it's anything other than his lines in some movie.
I get it, they are famous...they are good actors...they make a lot of money...etc...but that doesn't give them any special powers or intelligence that we all need to hear their take on something other than acting.
I feel the same way about sports figures... I mean, go play ball, don't preach about anything else to me.
AFS the virus in the US...I think because we now have way too many people involved in making decisions or driving them in a given direction...that is what will drag this whole thing out.
Now that the initial blast from the virus has passed and we've been into it for awhile...all the talking heads are recalibrating their talking points based on what is the most favorable thing for them and their political future or their wallets...and that will start to drive decision making.
That's another reason why I would like to see us get back to normal soon...before we lose normal forever.
gecko zzed
Grumpy Mod
It doesn't look like the 'initial blast' is anywhere nearing having passed.
Check out US figures here. Daily cases reported is increasing.
Yesterday, New York showed a total of 93,000+ cases. That one state has the fourth largest cumulative cases of all countries.
mjbphotos
Moderator
Sorry, I work in the gas industry, I do know what I am talking about. There is no such thing as a '750 cu ft' tank. If there was, each one (and you are talking about gaseous cubic feet) would last one patient less than 2 days. These are probably liquid O2 tanks, capacity measured in gallons. Again, the problem is that the system CANNOT delivery more O2 than it is capable of gasifying - overtax the system and big huge iceballs form on the outside of the vaporizers (from moisture in the air, not moisture in the oxygen) and they work even less efficiently.
We have been talking to hospitals who DID NOT EVEN CONSIDER the capacity of their Oxygen supply system. They know we come and fill up their bulk liquid tanks when they need them filled, that's it.
So your plan is just let people die, and keep spreading the virus and dying and not even try to keep those numbers in check?
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
The initial shock that we are being hit by a virus pandemic...that's the "blast" I was referring to.
Yeah...OK, Mike, you read into it whatever works for you. I'm not sure how it's my "plan" to just "let people die".
You're now living in fear, and I can understand why you can't see beyond just the virus.
I won't be surprised if several months from now we'll be back here discussing the economic disaster, and how people are dying from that and normal life across the country has been destroyed.
We could let the elderly and health compromised people stay sheltered...implement the social distancing and wearing of masks, and the hand sanitizing...and let the rest of the country get back to work before the whole thing collapses.
Again....look at Sweden...are they just "letting people die"...no....but they are also not living in fear and with panic.
Mickster
Well-known member
He's not the only one who got that impression. See above. It's easy to see how anyone could get that idea.
Ok.....what if we let more die now and the economic downturn is not as bad as you predict? I 100% believe that any hard economic downturn can and likely will cost lives....as you say. How many is up for debate. That hasn't happened yet.......and maybe never will. What if it doesn't?
But surely.......actually purposely allowing more to die....if it comes to that....in this pandemic......purposely....as a matter of policy decision has to be saying that it's ok.
I really don't think you think that......but you have to be able to see why someone might think you do.
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