My Corona

[Gtoboy]

Sorry, I work in the gas industry, I do know what I am talking about. There is no such thing as a '750 cu ft' tank. If there was, each one (and you are talking about gaseous cubic feet) would last one patient less than 2 days. These are probably liquid O2 tanks, capacity measured in gallons. Again, the problem is that the system CANNOT delivery more O2 than it is capable of gasifying - overtax the system and big huge iceballs form on the outside of the vaporizers (from moisture in the air, not moisture in the oxygen) and they work even less efficiently.
We have been talking to hospitals who DID NOT EVEN CONSIDER the capacity of their Oxygen supply system. They know we come and fill up their bulk liquid tanks when they need them filled, that's it.




So your plan is just let people die, and keep spreading the virus and dying and not even try to keep those numbers in check?

Yeah, i was actually talking about the size of the tanks, not their capacity. ~ 8-10 feet in diameter and ~ 15 feet high. I know liquids are measured in gallons, thanks.

 

[Steenamaroo]

I'm not sure how it's my "plan" to just "let people die".

Sort of curious what your 'plan' is here. I see a lot of moaning and complaining and being down on pretty much everything without really committing to anything.
If that's the intention, fire ahead. It's just not always clear to everyone.

 

[miroslav]

Not sure what the confusion is about where my thinking goes....?

The "plan" was/is to take a more relaxed approach VS just shutting everything down for weeks to come, which is what is now being considered.

Those that are at high risk...STAY HOME...but you can still let other people go back to work...and the real irony here is that by the time you add up the "essential" people, you still have a lot of people who need to move about, not to mention, everyone at home still needs to go out occasionally to get stuff...so it's not some absolute quarantine that will stop the virus spread.

That relaxed "plan" is working just fine in Sweden, as I've pointed out...and they are not just "letting people die".
That's just fear talking if you think that way.

So far, in the states that have issued the stay at home...the spread has not been affected much, if at all.
Now I'm sure all the people living in fear will say, "but how do you know that we're not saving more lives by staying home?"...and I say, how do you know that you are...???

AFA what the aftermath will be...we can speculate as much on that, as we are about how many more lives are being saved by everyone staying at home.

We have a lot of experts telling us stuff...but there are also a lot of experts already preparing for a serious economic crash...with up to 20% unemployment (the Great Depression was 25%)...and up to a 38% economic crash.
If some people want to turn a blind eye to that, and just hope that it won't happen...well, I find it confusing, that you can live in fear of the virus, but not be fearful of the economic collapse that may follow, and peripheral lives that will be lost in the fallout. If we shut down the whole country (I'm focused on the USA) for 2-3 months, most experts predict it will happen.

My point and my "plan" is that we need to weigh all the things out, and consider the long-term big picture...how many lives will be saved now and lost later...since people are just speculating on both.
I think the real lack of foresight by those just focusing on the virus...is that they don't have any reference how life would be in a serious economic crash.
Life's been pretty good...plenty of everything...easy access and affordable...supermarkets loaded...so, it's hard for some to imagine that could dramatically change, so they block it out and become very nearsighted.

 

[miroslav]

Here's a small reality check on my own home front...

I've got a contractor here working on my house. He's been finishing up the siding and some other stuff.
I asked him a week ago before he started if he was planning to postpone due to the virus stuff, which was OK with me...and he said, why?...there's nothing for him to be fearful of working on the outside of my house.

Now today...he realized that he needed some piece of equipment for a portion of the work, and he also had 2 other jobs coming up where he needed that same equipment...something that he would normally be able to get with out issue.
Well...can't get it due to the shutdowns.
He said he could still do most of the work, but some may have to wait....and I was fine with that, I was not in any rush, it wasn't that critical.
That said... it IS critical to him, because...no work, no pay.
He may have to cancel his other jobs...and he was already getting a bit concerned now if he can't move forward with work.
By the way...construction work was still considered essential...so he was playing within the rules.

The point being...if he has to stop working...inside of a few weeks he will be one more person looking to collect unemployment along with the 10 million+ that have already filed for unemployment. He already said, the check you get at unemployment is a fraction...and it's not something you can live normally on for too long.

There are MANY people who live pay-to-pay, and it's just fine in a normal economy...but when the economy stops, it will have much more dramatic effects on life than the virus everyone is living in fear of.

 

[miroslav]

He's not the only one who got that impression. See above. It's easy to see how anyone could get that idea.

Ok.....what if we let more die now and the economic downturn is not as bad as you predict? I 100% believe that any hard economic downturn can and likely will cost lives....as you say. How many is up for debate. That hasn't happened yet.......and maybe never will. What if it doesn't?

But surely.......actually purposely allowing more to die....if it comes to that....in this pandemic......purposely....as a matter of policy decision has to be saying that it's ok.

I really don't think you think that......but you have to be able to see why someone might think you do.

I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that we would be "purposely" allowing more to die. You're just making an assumption...but then so are all the experts.

So what exactly are you suggesting...?

1.) It's unlikely that the economic crash would happen or that it would be that dramatic...so let's just all stay home and focus on the virus.

2.) Let's not even think about the possible economic crash and the 10x more lives it will destroy...let's just focus on the virus, and we'll worry about that disaster when it comes later on.

See...some of you are saying what's my "plan"...but I would like to know WTF is the long-term plan for everyone in this country, and not just the immediate focus on easing up the hospital overcrowding.

My buddy in CA had to go into the hospital on Monday for an intestinal issue...something totally unrelated to the virus. He was still there last night, hoping to go home today...and I asked him on the phone how was it in that hospital.
He said they had one section quarantined off for the COVID-19 patients...but the rest of the hospital was taking care of other health issues. The only concern was that all the staff would at some point rotate through the quarantined ward. He said they didn't test him, just asked if he had been feeling any symptoms of the virus, to which he said no...and they said when he goes out into the halls, he needs to wear a mask, otherwise, it's business as usual in the hospital for many patients like him.

So when we just focus on the hot spots like NYC, Chicago, now New Orleans...it paints a picture that fuels the fear and panic...but many places are not experiencing that kind of virus overload, and most people just feel ill, and then they get better.

For the last week or so...the US mortality rate has held between 2%-2.5%...with most of that happening in the hot spots where the shut downs are in effect.
So they are not having any significant effect on the numbers.
The USA has 330 million people of which 270 thousand are infected, but that doesn't mean sick and dying and needing ventilators...which is how things are being interpreted by the people living in fear.
Basically that's 0.08% of the USA population infected...which means 99.02% are not.

I'm just saying that there has to be some middle ground where we take care of the sick, and have the high-risk people stay at home and also let the healthy folks exercise caution guidelines and allow them to maintain some sense of normalcy for the benefit of everyone, for the long-term.
Nowhere in that is it suggested that we just "let people die". I'm saying that we may lose a lot more in the long-term if our perspective is too myopic.

 

[RFR]

Construction is still going in in Ca. However, one of the bigger suppliers of materials, Home Depot, is limiting customers to no more than 10 people in the store. The building is over 10,000 sg feet! Plenty of room to practice social distancing, but no more than ten customers are allowed inside.
Insane!
Makes it awfully hard to get the needed supplies for a job in an efficient timely manner.
To be fair, I don’t know if this is a statewide policy or it just applies to my local store.

 

[Steenamaroo]

I'm just saying that there has to be some middle ground where we take care of the sick, and have the high-risk people stay at home and also let the healthy folks exercise caution guidelines and allow them to maintain some sense of normalcy for the benefit of everyone, for the long-term.

With respect if you'd done it in less than 10 thousand words, without shitting on everything you encountered along the way, people have might understood that all you wanted to do was state the obvious.

 

[miroslav]

With respect if you'd done it in less than 10 thousand words, without shitting on everything you encountered along the way, people have might understood that all you wanted to do was state the obvious.

With respect...I've been pretty much repeating the same suggestions, but some people don't want to hear it, and prefer to use hyperbole driven by their fear, so I get dumbass responses saying my "plan" is to "let people die".

So I'm not "shitting" on anything...and that's just the kind of perspective some people will get when you don't agree with them.

I knew the hostility WRT to the virus discussion and differing views was bound to show up here eventually, thank you Steen.

 

[Steenamaroo]

This is all in your head man. You just go on and on relentlessly complaining about everything without a point.

You're a pure expert at twisting and turning and always looking like you won something but, Jesus, it gets boring.

TL/DR - Miro knows everything. Everyone knows nothing.

 

[miroslav]

If it's all in my head...don't let it bother you so much then.

 

[RFR]

Sorry, but I gotta have Miro’s back on this one. He’s one of the few interjecting some common sense into the discussion. Seems like the rest have completely bought into the propaganda disseminated by the govt, media, and medical ‘authorities’.

Anyone not towing the line gets covertly or overtly attacked. My, what good, well behaved sheep we are.

I get that people are freaked out right now, and that’s what those in charge want. People that are scared are more willing to accept non optimum solutions. Those solutions will leave most of us poorer and less free.
These people are destroying the whole world’s livelihood and well being. Our grandchildren are going to be paying for this mess.
The whole world is being shut down!!!!! For what???? A virus that kills a few, but most recover from??? Meanwhile healthy people’s lives will be ruined. Humanity will recover from the disease, but it may take generations to recover from the cure. And you’re all ok with that???

I don’t care if you ban me, ridicule me, paint me as a conspiracy kook or whatever, but I gotta take Miro’s side on this. To attack him because he hasn’t bought into it hook line and sinker is not only wrong, but stupid.

 

[miroslav]

I always thought you were a kook...

I appreciate that someone else here is considering what we may end up leaving our children and grandchildren...and I don't even have any, but I am concerned that the next couple of generations will be digging out of the economic hole we may end up in.

I too understand that some people are scared of the virus. If my mother was still alive, with her COPD and heart issues, she too would be scared, and I would make sure she was safe...but she always worried more about how I would make out after she was gone...and so I too worry about how we will make out after this virus is gone, more than I worry about the virus.

 

[miroslav]

Coronavirus may cause some food shortages, says government document

Coronavirus could wipe out department stores: former Apple store chief

 

[Steenamaroo]

I'm 'attacking' Miro for being a troll and a hypocrite.
His point, like I said, seems pretty obvious.

I've been pretty much repeating the same suggestions, but some people don't want to hear it

don't let it bother you so much then.

One rule for one and a different one for the rest.

 

[TAE]

Now kids!

Miro you can be a real PITA but you is who you is and there's a lot of what you bring to this group that I do like and appreciate...sometimes however....if I had a rake!

Howsabout a little levity to lighten this tense situation..

YouTube

 

[miroslav]

I'm 'attacking' Miro for being a troll and a hypocrite.
His point, like I said, seems pretty obvious.

One rule for one and a different one for the rest.

Let's not get into who's been a hypocrite around here, Steen...'cause that conversation would go back across several years.

I've not stopped or complained about anyone else here posting their opinions and making counter responses to what I've said.
In fact, I welcome it...this is a forum for discussion, and maybe someone has new info or a new way of seeing things.
Let everyone post as much as they want...especially since this is an evolving situation with the virus, so the conversation will follow that for as long as it goes on.


There's that old forum saying...if you don't like the conversation in the thread...don't read it or post in it.
What you want to do, is shut down who you don't agree with.
AFA the "rules"...I live with the same ones as everyone else here....and I'm not the one who brought hostility into this thread.

I am as frustrated and bothered by all this virus stuff as everyone else...I'm just more concerned about the long-term than the short-term.
There's nothing hypocritical in my perspective.

 

[Mickster]

What in hell's name are we doing here? What's the conflict all about? And please.....don't say there's no conflict. Not pointing at anyone in particular. Is anyone here going to pretend that there's not some level of ridicule and name calling and finger pointing going on?

You know.......when this is over.........no one in this thread will have been 100% right. However.........some will probably have been more insightful than others. And yes....some here will have overreacted. And then....of course......we'll be arguing about who was more right. And then......as now......we'll be proving that insanity is..............well..........you know how that ends.

 

[Steenamaroo]

There's that old forum saying...if you don't like the conversation in the thread...don't read it or post in it.

There's nothing hypocritical in my perspective.

I'm starting to think you really don't see it.

 

[miroslav]

I'm starting to think you really don't see it.

It would help if you would actually say what's on your mind instead of the cryptic one-liner posts.

See...I DON'T dislike the conversation in the thread...so I have no reason to not read it or not post in it.
What's hypocritical about that?

You seem to be mostly bothered because I keep posting in this thread...even though everyone's been behaving until you decided to raise the hostility level.
What's the problem Steen...you just don't want me to keep posting, is that it?

If this virus topic is just becoming to stressful and bothersome in general...shut it down then.
I asked earlier if people wanted to just stop talking about it, then fine...let's ALL stop talking about it.

 

[TAE]

You know.......when this is over.........no one in this thread will have been 100% right. .

You forgot "other than TAE" Mick!