Is a dynamic mic better for ME? Advice needed pls

[Joe-H]

I currently have a condenser mic (Rode NTK) to do vocal recordings. My signal chain is this: NTK===>Mackie VLZ Pro (this will be upgraded with a better preamp)===>M-Audio Audiophile 24/96===>CoolEdit Pro

I recorded a few singers with this setup, and so far the results I'm getting aren't so good. Now, I'm not expecting professional quality recordings by any mean. I used to record with an AKG1000s going through an Audio Buddy and into my computer generic soundcard. To be honest, the results I'm getting with my new setup aren't really noticably better than the results I got from my old setup, which is why I'm kind of frustrated (and a little bitter, I guess).

Reading this forum, I'm getting the sense that acoustic treatment is of utmost importance. So I guess that is where my leakest link of the chain is. My room is not treated at all. This, I can't do anything about until I move into my new house in a year.

Knowing that my room is not treated, will a really good dynamic mic be an improvement over the condenser that I'm using? If so, would you explain a little and suggest which dynamic mics are ideal for recording? Thanks for your help.

 

[chessrock]

Knowing that my room is not treated, will a really good dynamic mic be an improvement over the condenser that I'm using? If so, would you explain a little and suggest which dynamic mics are ideal for recording? Thanks for your help.

Maybe. No way of really knowing, really, without actually being there. Try a Shure SM-7 or an Electrovoice RE-20. Either of those would be great choices anyway -- even if your room doesn't suck.

 

[Joe-H]

Try a Shure SM-7 or an Electrovoice RE-20. Either of those would be great choices anyway -- even if your room doesn't suck.

Would those two mics be an improvement over the NTK I currently have though? The NTK is a highly regarded vocal mic, right? And it doesn't sound all that good for me (not just me but also the singers I have recorded) so far. I could, of course, upgrade the preamp, but I think my untreated room is definately the weakest link.

So knowing that my room is the biggest problem, would you recommend using dynamic mics to record as a sort of solution? Dynamic mics have better sound isolation and doesn't pick up the room sound nearly as much as condenser mics, right?

Also, the kind of vocals I'm recording needs to be really, really bright. You know how a lot of the country music singers tend to sound really clear and bright in their recordings? Well, the type of vocal recordings I'll be doing would be much brighter! I need a REALLY bright mic.

Generally, which is a more bright sound mic, dynamic or condenser? I read that the Shure Beta58A is very bright. Would that be a good option?

 

[mshilarious]

So knowing that my room is the biggest problem, would you recommend using dynamic mics to record as a sort of solution? Dynamic mics have better sound isolation and doesn't pick up the room sound nearly as much as condenser mics, right?

Also, the kind of vocals I'm recording needs to be really, really bright.

Well this is going to be tough. Condensers are more sensitive than dynamics, so at a given distance, they need less gain. However, most people don't set the distance, they set the gain and move the source. Thus, singers tend to sit right on dynamics and back off from condensers. If you add 10 or 15 dB of gain to a dynamic, it'll pick up your room noise too. So to some extent, you'll have to have singers closer to the mic either way, which might not be the best sound.

Try to build a portable mic booth. Some PVC pipe (don't cement all the joints so you can tear it down), a bit of foam, maybe some heavy blankets, and you're in business. This can be done pretty cheaply.

 

[Innovations]

Well the part that I am a bit confused about is the bit about not being able to improve the sound of your room until you move. It is possible to have freestanding room treatments, like gobos and absorbers hung on music stands, that require no attachment to the structure and can be packed away when not in use and even moved to your new home.

That will solve your real weakest link and be usefull in your new place too.

 

[still4given]

Would those two mics be an improvement over the NTK I currently have though? The NTK is a highly regarded vocal mic, right? And it doesn't sound all that good for me (not just me but also the singers I have recorded) so far. I could, of course, upgrade the preamp, but I think my untreated room is definately the weakest link.

So knowing that my room is the biggest problem, would you recommend using dynamic mics to record as a sort of solution? Dynamic mics have better sound isolation and doesn't pick up the room sound nearly as much as condenser mics, right?

Also, the kind of vocals I'm recording needs to be really, really bright. You know how a lot of the country music singers tend to sound really clear and bright in their recordings? Well, the type of vocal recordings I'll be doing would be much brighter! I need a REALLY bright mic.

Generally, which is a more bright sound mic, dynamic or condenser? I read that the Shure Beta58A is very bright. Would that be a good option?

The NTK is a fairly bright mic, especially for a tube mic.

I agree with mshilarious. Try putting together some kind of portable "booth" made of blankets or the like, on some kind of stand.

Blessings, Terry

 

[chessrock]

Would those two mics be an improvement over the NTK I currently have though? The NTK is a highly regarded vocal mic, right? And it doesn't sound all that good for me (not just me but also the singers I have recorded) so far. I could, of course, upgrade the preamp, but I think my untreated room is definately the weakest link.

So knowing that my room is the biggest problem, would you recommend using dynamic mics to record as a sort of solution? Dynamic mics have better sound isolation and doesn't pick up the room sound nearly as much as condenser mics, right?

Also, the kind of vocals I'm recording needs to be really, really bright. You know how a lot of the country music singers tend to sound really clear and bright in their recordings? Well, the type of vocal recordings I'll be doing would be much brighter! I need a REALLY bright mic.

Generally, which is a more bright sound mic, dynamic or condenser? I read that the Shure Beta58A is very bright. Would that be a good option?

Well, first off, no, I don't know that the room is your biggest problem. I haven't been in your room, nor have I heard any of your recordings. I hope you don't take offense to this -- I'm merely trying to help out, and sometimes people assume my tone as being confrontational. Okay, and it is sometimes, so I apologize.

Anyway, most often, the guyss who ask the kind of questions that you're currently asking -- usually the biggest problem is that the guy behind the controls just needs to gain some more experience.

Take that for what it's worth. So will a dynamic be the solution to a poor-sounding room? Maybe -- but maybe not. Depends on the room and how you're tracking. It can certainly help, in some situations, since they tend to be a bit less sensitive. And if you need your sound to be abrasively bright, you can always dial that in with a parametric equalizer I assume.

I've certainly never heard the NTK accused of not being bright enough, so it's possible there could be something wrong with it. Or perhaps something wrong with another part of your signal chain . . . maybe there's too much proximity effect because people are swallowing it? I've heard of people actually singing in to the wrong side of the mic before, don't laugh. Could be any number of 100 different things.

 

[DJL]

I currently have a condenser mic (Rode NTK) to do vocal recordings. My signal chain is this: NTK===>Mackie VLZ Pro (this will be upgraded with a better preamp)===>M-Audio Audiophile 24/96===>CoolEdit Pro

I recorded a few singers with this setup, and so far the results I'm getting aren't so good. Now, I'm not expecting professional quality recordings by any mean. I used to record with an AKG1000s going through an Audio Buddy and into my computer generic soundcard. To be honest, the results I'm getting with my new setup aren't really noticably better than the results I got from my old setup, which is why I'm kind of frustrated (and a little bitter, I guess).

Reading this forum, I'm getting the sense that acoustic treatment is of utmost importance. So I guess that is where my leakest link of the chain is. My room is not treated at all. This, I can't do anything about until I move into my new house in a year.

Knowing that my room is not treated, will a really good dynamic mic be an improvement over the condenser that I'm using? If so, would you explain a little and suggest which dynamic mics are ideal for recording? Thanks for your help.

Yes... and being the mic junkie I am... I love dynamic mic's and you should get some... even if for no other reason but just to have some.

oh, and the answer to the second part of your question is...
http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=27030

 

[Joe-H]

Thanks for the replies!

About building a vocal booth or some kind of portable/attachable vocal booth, I won't be able to get this done until either I have a lot more money or move into my new home, which I will have an extra room for a tracking room. Then I can hire someone to treat that room properly for me.

I currently don't have a spare room for a tracking room. So if I'm going to improve my tracking, I'll have to have some kind of vocal booth. I can't build one myself (being in a wheelchair has its physical limitation). So if I want one, I would have to buy one. I checked out some of the vocal booths at whisperroom.com. They look good, but I would have to buy the more expensive ones to fit myself into. I might even need them to customize it for me, which I assume would cost me quite a bit.

 

[Joe-H]

I hope you don't take offense to this -- I'm merely trying to help out, and sometimes people assume my tone as being confrontational.

Not at all. None taken. I'm here to learn.

Anyway, most often, the guyss who ask the kind of questions that you're currently asking -- usually the biggest problem is that the guy behind the controls just needs to gain some more experience.

Oh I have no doubt about that. But if you can speed up your learn curve a little, why not?

So will a dynamic be the solution to a poor-sounding room? Maybe -- but maybe not. Depends on the room and how you're tracking.

I don't know if it is a poor-sounding room. It is just your regular mid-size bedroom with four walls and a window. And that might be my problem right there.

I've certainly never heard the NTK accused of not being bright enough, so it's possible there could be something wrong with it.

Well, I wouldn't say it is not bright. Just that it is not bright enough for the type of music I'm doing. Maybe it is bright enough but that the picked up room noise muddy up my recordings, I don't know.

maybe there's too much proximity effect because people are swallowing it?

On soft songs that doesn't require the singer to sing too loudly, I usually place the mic 8-10 inches from the singer. 12-14 inches on songs that require the singer to scream.

 

[chessrock]

Alright, I'm going to guess you've probably got some funky room modes / standing waves going on that are likely accentuating the low-mids wherever it is you're tracking. That's my best guess. You should probably look in to using some sort of broadband absorption / treatment, along with some (good) bass traps and what not.

Obviously, you'll want to put them in some sort of portable / temporary array so that they can easily be moved to your new place when the time comes. You'll still have use for them -- trust me.

 

[Joe-H]

Alright, I'm going to guess you've probably got some funky room modes / standing waves going on that are likely accentuating the low-mids wherever it is you're tracking.

I don't know much about this subject to tell if my room is suffering from what you're guessing. I know that when I make a loud sound that I can clearly hear the reflection or echo. This isn't good, right? I want to add effects from the MPX1 later onto the dry vocal track. I just want a really dry track, which I can't seem to get due to the reflection/ambience I get from my room. It really muddy up the track once I add effects to it.

You should probably look in to using some sort of broadband absorption / treatment, along with some (good) bass traps and what not.

Will I hear a noticeably improvement on my tracking if I do this properly? I live near a store that sell rigid fiberlass 703, so getting the right materials is no problem. What I'm worrying most is that my room is kind of noisy (I have a fairly quiet computer but the NTK still pick it up pretty good). Even if I apply acoustic treatment to my room, then what about sound isolation? The NTK will still pick up noise from the outside of my room, right?

 

[still4given]

Having a bad sounding room causes a few problems. First, you get some weird frequencies when you are tracking, then when you try to mix you get a false impression of how the recording really sounds and usually make things worse as you try to EQ what you're hearing. You really need to address the acoustics in your room a bit.

If you have a walk-in closet, you may want to try recording in there. Also the PVC frame with blankets draped over it, as was already mentioned, is a pretty easy thing to make and doesn't cost very much. I would think someone confined to a wheel chair could manage it fine, and if constructed properly it should store in a pretty small space.

Blessings, Terry

 

[chessparov]

Here's what I would do in your situation...

(my wife is also handicapped so am used to the issues here BTW)

1) Get an Electro-Voice EV 635a omni, they sell for about $100 new or $70
used. Be careful it was never dropped nose first if it's used.
You can sing within 2-3" of it and it will take less gain than a SM7
or RE20 will require. The Mackie pre's do especially poorly with a
SM7 or SM57.

2) Go to www.realtraps.com and seriously consider getting a pair of
MicroTraps. Read the FAQ section.

3) Since you said BRIGHT, one reasonable option would be to get one of
the new Joe Meek's that have an enhancer along with the mic pre,
opto-compressor, EQ, etc. It can be a cool effect if used in
moderation. If you get it, then the SM7 or RE20 idea will be viable
again too. You'll have an easier time with the RE20 though since it
treats off-axis sounds more evenly.

4) Consider selling the NTK and add the $$ into your budget.
Same goes for the Audio Buddy and C1000S.

Chris

 

[chessrock]

I live near a store that sell rigid fiberlass 703, so getting the right materials is no problem. What I'm worrying most is that my room is kind of noisy (I have a fairly quiet computer but the NTK still pick it up pretty good).

Yup. Get some 703 wrap 'em up with some sort of fabric (something not too girly ) and make panels out of it. Put 'em up in the corners, maybe stick a few on the celing . . . and on every other wall surface. That will help a lot. I wouldn't worry as much about the external noise -- although I suppose that could be a problem, but probably not as much as the early reflections and standing waves. Put enough of it up and it will help.

 

[Lance135]

Yeah, read up a little on "standing waves". Basically, certain frequencies compound on each other in rooms that contain parallel walls. The frequency of the standing wave is in direct correlation to the distance between the walls. This causes the room have an increased response to those frequencies. This really affects both recording, and mixing down since you would tend to attenuate the standing wave frequencies.

There are two types of remedies: dampening and dispersion. Dampening is obviously putting in materials to absorb the sound, and reduce reflections. Dispersion is adding material that randomizes the reflections instead. Using dispersion materials give the room a livelier sound (more reflections) while dampening gives the room a dead sound.

I would go the dampening route--it's easier, and usually cheaper. Some engineers prefer to mix in a completely dead sounding room so it doesn't colour their mixing desicions.

 

[DJL]

Yes... and being the mic junkie I am... I love dynamic mic's and you should get some... even if for no other reason but just to have some.

Oops, I didn't finish the above sentence...

Yes... and being the mic junkie I am... I love dynamic mic's and you should get some... even if for no other reason but just to have some to experiment with.

 

[Joe-H]

Get an Electro-Voice EV 635a omni, they sell for about $100 new or $70 used.

I looked at musiciansfriend.com, zzounds.com, and music123.com but did not see them. I did find one on ebay. Are they good for recording? One poster here recommend I get an Audix OM5 since its pick up pattern would be suitable for my needs, and it sound really good. How would the mic you recommend compare with the Audix OM5?

Go to www.realtraps.com and seriously consider getting a pair of MicroTraps. Read the FAQ section.

The picture shown below would be four microtraps put together, right? That would be $480, a pair would be $960. Too pricey for me.

Since you said BRIGHT, one reasonable option would be to get one of
the new Joe Meek's that have an enhancer along with the mic pre, opto-compressor, EQ, etc. It can be a cool effect if used in moderation.

Forgive my ignorance, but what would an enhancer do to my vocal? What does it add? Can you tell me the model so I can look for it?

Consider selling the NTK and add the $$ into your budget. Same goes for the Audio Buddy and C1000S

The Audio Buddy and C1000S is going to be on ebay this week. The NTK I would like to keep around until I can treat my room to hear its full potential as a vocal mic.

Thanks for all your suggestions!

 

[chessparov]

You can read about the oneQ (with enhancer) at www.joemeek.com
Also you can email them or call with questions.

There is some excellent information on enhancers aka exciters at www.soundonsound.com/search available when you put either name in the search field.

While the OM5 is a fine sounding mic, because it has a unidirectional pattern the micophone placement is more critical due to proximity effect,
and coloration resulting from off-axis placement.

With the EV 635a you just point it at the sound source and you're pretty much done. Personally I like placing one around "10 o'clock" (or "2 o'clock")
to cut down on plosives although it's resistant to them.

Pro AE's like Bob Ohlsson or Scott Dorsey has great respect for this microphone and consider them essential for a professional studio's mic cabinet. The frequency response was designed to compensate for areas with
poor acoustics (sound familiar? both inside and in the field-primarily for
broadcasting work in that regard BTW.

The EV 635a has its bass rolled off, then a mellow toned mid-range, along with amazingly clear (not harsh) top end for a dynamic microphone.
The limited top end response is usually an advantage in domestic recording.
(up to about 13 kHz effectively)
It also does better with cheap pre's vs. a Shure SM57 IME.

www.bswonline.com sells them new for around $100 IIRC.

Chris

 

[noiseportrait]

I used to record with an AKG1000s going through an Audio Buddy and into my computer generic soundcard. To be honest, the results I'm getting with my new setup aren't really noticably better than the results I got from my old setup, which is why I'm kind of frustrated

I've always thought that the audio-buddy was a better mic-pre than the mackie VLZ. I've never compared the two side by side, but I've never been frustrated with a audio-buddy like I have with a mackie. I don't think it's going to fix all of your problems, but maybe you should try switching back to the audio-buddy.