How hot can 32 and 34b heads be driven?

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evm1024

evm1024

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One of the reasons that tascam 32 and 34b cannot be calibrated to +9 tape is that the electronics will not "adjust" to that level.

Let's ignore that limit for a moment assuming that the record amp could changed.

The question is: do we know the maximum levels that the record head will take? What are the effects of overdriving? And for that matter the playback head too?

--E
 
are you sure that the electronics won't adjust to that level?

I was mastering my friend's cd this week..slamming the mix to the 32. clipping the electronics sounded bad...and I didn't even notice it at first it was so subtle...using a peak limiter in front of the tape machine helped this a lot.

The hotter I ran it the more "mono" it got (probably from bleed and also flattened out transients).

all it really did was raise the avarage relative to the peaks. you can hear it working. the more input gain, the less the material "jumps out" of the speakers. very useful control.

by the end, what I did was adjust the input for overall tone more than anything, and adjusted to avoid any clipping (which did occur relatively quickly).

the final product the average level was about + 6 to 8 on the meters, and on the PC the RMS was -14, so the transients being 14 db above that, I estimate that it would clip at about +22 db. just a rough guess.

that is all above +6 calibration. hope this helps.
 
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This goes for any head really, but expect more crosstalk, more distortion and lower frequency response. The particular head/heads in question will dictate whether the changes are marginal or make the system unusable for serious high fidelity recording.

Funny... I set my 22-2 up for GP9 @ +7 a while back to see if it could do it. It worked without a hitch and sounded great. Since the 22-2 is really designed for 1-mil tape I was afraid to run the heavier stuff on a regular basis, so I changed it back.

I don’t know if the 32 or 34 could ramp right up to 520 nWb/m, but I would be surprised if they didn’t come close enough to realize some benefit from the GP9 and ATR10 class of tape.

What methods did you employ to test the machine’s electronics? How would you describe how you discovered the limitation?

~Tim
:)
 
No range left

The first problem was to get the playback levels to read 0 VU at 520 nW/m. On my 32 the pots just don't adjust that far down. But that is the easy fix.

On the record side same problem in that the pots do not adjust up far enough. Thats not too hard to fix either. Add in some emitter followers and you could drive the heads rail to rail.

Bias might be a little more tricky but not too much.

I'm more interested finding out the limits of the heads.
 
This relates back to misinformation that I see on the web, over and over.

For the record: (heh: pun)...

The Maximum Operating Level (MOL) of +9 tape (499/GP9/996) is 520nWb/m.

You'd use the MOL as the top level you'd expect to hit, and set Standard Operating Level to appx. 3db below the MOL.

Therefore, if you're setting up for +9 tape, (MOL),... then the Standard Operating Level should be [+6db/185 = 370nWb/m = 0VU]. In turn, if you have a 520nWb/m cal tape, the 520nWb/m tone section should be sitting at +3db/VU.

Hello? For however many times I've stated this, does anyone really understand why?

MOL is the Maximum Operating Level, above which distortion will occur. It's normal to set Standard Operating Level appx. 3db below MOL, (@0VU), so as to set average level to 0VU, which is well below the hard-clip limit of MOL. In turn, this allows transient peaks to bounce the meters to +3db/VU without ill effect.

If you set 520nWb/m = 0db/VU, then 0VU is your hard clip limit, and that would be contrary to how decks were traditionally set up,... "back in the day". More importantly, many of the vintage decks we discuss on these boards are not capable (or barely capable) of adjusting to [520nWb/m = 0VU]. More important is the reason directly above, that you want your "hard clip limit" to be +3db/VU on the meters, plain & simple.

However, with that being said, you may set your levels however you want, whether I'd view it as improper or not. It goes hand in hand with misinformation that's been propagated on the web that I've seen on several sites, which in my opinion is flat wrong.

I can understand that this late in the game there's not a firm understanding of analog and levels, enough that misinformation published on websites is taken as gospel. It's not the users' fault.

In short,... a properly setup deck that's running +9db/185 should hit (MOL) 520nWb/m at +3db/VU, (not 0db/VU).

Hello? Is anyone listening?;)
 
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Gosh,...

I'm sorry to sound like I'm ramming that down yer throat!

F/I, for running 456 tape, I'd set my 0VU to 250nWb/m. For 499, I'd want my 0VU at 370nWb/m. For any value or setting, I'd want my hard clip limit to be +3VU, but you could calculate another value if you wanted. I think the idea in analog was to set a nominal level that let you average 0VU and peak at appx 3VU without reaching saturation. It sounds like old-school philosophy, I guess.:eek: That's how I understand it to be, contrary to things I've read on "official" analog websites.

The guys who (f/i) set the operating level for 456 at 370nWb/m=0dbVU are driving the tape into the saturation zone for any signal above 0VU. Some people might set it this way on purpose, some by mistake, or others for philosophical reasons. I dunno, but that's not by the book. I guess it depends which text you read. :eek: :confused: ;)

Cheers;)

/DA
 
dave,

if the average level of your recording were 0 db and your peaks were at +3 db then you would have a very, very loud recording!! with only 6db of dynamic range!! what are you talking about man? are you recording german death metal and didn't tell us?
 
Had to reread the spec

I've got a pretty a bad cold so my thinking has been a little fuzzy.

I've gone back to the reference document "Choosing and using MRL calibration taped for Audio Tape Recorder Standerization" because I was sure that I did read that some systems are set to 500(520) nW/m 0 VU reference.

This document does state that common (at least when we were using tape recorders extensivly) US practice was to set the reference fluxivity to read 0 VU on the meters. There is a table that includes 500 nW/m reference fluxivity for 499 and like tapes.

The MOL (maximum output level) is defined as the level on tape where the 3rd harmonic rises to 3%. Here is a table of MOL for a few tapes:

642 1000 nW/m
406 1400 nW/m
456 2000 nW/m
499 2700 nW/m

So should I set a deck to have the reference level to 500 nW/m I would have 7.3 dB headroom (over 0 VU at 500 nW/m) for 499. Which is more headroom than 456 with a reference level of 355 nW/m!

10 log (2700/500) = 7.3 dB headroom (499)
10 log (2000/355) = 5.6 dB headroom (456)

Looking at 456 at 250 we get 10 log (2000/250) = 9 dB headroom

And looking at 406 at 250 we get 10 log(1400/250) = 7.48 dB headroom.

Now of course very few decks use 499 exclusivly and it is obvious that VU meters are not peak meters so recording at 0 VU "peaks" would most likely exhaust your headroom. But as you can see from the calculations above that happens with 456 at an operating level of 355 nW/m as well. Actually, the 456 has 1.7 dB less headroom!

Running 499 at 500 nW/m would would give you 1.7 dB extra headroom over 456 at 355 nW/m plus it would reduce the noise floor by 1.4 dB (3 db total of course 1.7+3.4).



Anyway my question was in regards to the heads capabilities....and not a plan of action.

Regards
 
evm1024 said:
Anyway my question was in regards to the heads capabilities....and not a plan of action.

i already tried to answer this for you, but it should be in the specs for whatever machine you are working with.
 
did read, was usefull

FALKEN said:
i already tried to answer this for you, but it should be in the specs for whatever machine you are working with.

Thanks Falken, Your post was interesting and usefull.

Sadly, I do not have the head specs.

Gutting the audio electronics and replacing with something else is not beyond me.

-e
 
The answer to the head question can be found in the manual for the BR-20, which uses the same heads, part number 5378301800 for both play and record.

The BR-20 has a High/Low operating level switch that normally switches between 250 nWb/m and 320 nWb/m. However on page 6 of the manual we see it can be alternately setup to switch between 320 nWb/m and 520 nWb/m.

So apparently the BR-20 will do it with the same heads as are on the 32. The BR-20 should also be a good study in a view to beefing up the 32 for the job. A link to the BR-20 manual is below:

http://www.tascamcontractor.com/ftp_resources/files/manual/BR-20_manual.pdf

I guess I’m a little surprised the 32 (or at least not all of them) can’t be setup at a higher level. My 22-2 is able to adjust up to 514 nWb/m right out of the box. The heads are similar to that of the 32, but it actually has two different part numbers for the record and play heads. However, a substitution part is listed that is the same for the 22-2, 32 and BR-20, for both record and play.

Anyway, I hope that helps.

Dave offers some good advice as far as best practices for lowest distortion. However, there are longstanding disagreements about standards, especially those of North America compared with the other side of the pond.

This is one of those thorny subjects where there really is no one right answer, and in fact many do set their reference fluxivity (VU Deflection 0 dB) at OPL (Operating level) for a given tape. That would be around 500 nWb/m for GP9 tape.

Since tape doesn’t actually “clip”, but rather softly compresses the peak signals, the true maximum operating level is really much higher than the “recommended maximum operation level.” Quantegy’s Maximum Operation Level recommendation is not well explained, but based on the tape specs it must be OPL, and not the other MOL (Maximum output Level). At 500 nWb/m GP9 is nowhere near 3% 3rd harmonic distortion. It is more like 0.8%.

Tape manufacturers could do a lot more on their web sites to explain this in simple terms. Quantegy’s website is wholly inadequate, and is about as useful as nothing at all. See the chart at the following link: “Recommended Maximum Operating Levels”

http://www.quantegy.com/html/recordersetup.html

OPL (operating level) depends on machine, tape speed, track width and the maximum acceptable level of 3rd harmonic distortion, based on the user’s judgment for the type of material he/she is recording, and the dynamics of the material.

Based on Quantegy's standard testing conditions, we are looking at a recommendation for ¼” half-track @ 15ips. The test reference level for GP9 is 320 nWb/m. But here’s the important part. Under these testing conditions with that reference level the 3rd harmonic distortion is only 0.06%. So you can see just how far we have to go before true maximum operating level, which is a limitation of increasing distortion as the tape begins to saturate.

Keep in mind that 1% is pretty standard for the format. And in many cases 2% 3rd harmonic distortion is just detectable, and again depends on the material you’re recording.

A machine’s reference fluxivity can be set somewhat below a tape’s recommended maximum OPL for the cleanest, most distortion-free recordings. Where each person finds that sweet-spot between distortion and noise floor is really up to them. It also has a lot to do with how you want to read your meters. For mastering to half-track, I personally like to set my operating level a couple dB down and keep any peaks below +3 VU, for lower distortion and highest frequency response. I felt my 22-2 worked best with GP9 @ +7 referenced to 0 VU.

~Tim
:)
 
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Bingo!

Bongi, I knew asking here would provide the information. This is really exactly what i was looking for and much better than expected.


Thanks Beck, you rule (Sorry it won't let me give you more rep)

PS I've started collecting manuals in pdf planning to host them for all to download. No fee but donations accepted. Anybody care to send me a few Tascam manuals?


Beck said:
The answer to the head question can be found in the manual for the BR-20, which uses the same heads, part number 5378301800 for both play and record.

The BR-20 has a High/Low operating level switch that normally switches between 250 nWb/m and 320 nWb/m. However on page 6 of the manual we see it can be alternately setup to switch between 320 nWb/m and 520 nWb/m.

So apparently the BR-20 will do it with the same heads as are on the 32. The BR-20 should also be a good study in a view to beefing up the 32 for the job. A link to the BR-20 manual is below:

http://www.tascamcontractor.com/ftp_resources/files/manual/BR-20_manual.pdf

I guess I’m a little surprised the 32 (or at least not all of them) can’t be setup at a higher level. My 22-2 is able to adjust up to 514 nWb/m right out of the box. The heads are similar to that of the 32, but it actually has two different part numbers for the record and play heads. However, a substitution part is listed that is the same for the 22-2, 32 and BR-20, for both record and play.

Anyway, I hope that helps.

Dave offers some good advice as far as best practices for lowest distortion. However, there are longstanding disagreements about standards, especially those of North America compared with the other side of the pond.

This is one of those thorny subjects where there really is no one right answer, and in fact many do set their reference fluxivity (VU Deflection 0 dB) at OPL (Operating level) for a given tape. That would be around 500 nWb/m for GP9 tape.

Since tape doesn’t actually “clip”, but rather softly compresses the peak signals, the true maximum operating level is really much higher than the “recommended maximum operation level.” Quantegy’s Maximum Operation Level recommendation is not well explained, but based on the tape specs it must be OPL, and not the other MOL (Maximum output Level). At 500 nWb/m GP9 is nowhere near 3% 3rd harmonic distortion. It is more like 0.8%.

Tape manufacturers could do a lot more on their web sites to explain this in simple terms. Quantegy’s website is wholly inadequate, and is about as useful as nothing at all. See the chart at the following link: “Recommended Maximum Operating Levels”

http://www.quantegy.com/html/recordersetup.html

OPL (operating level) depends on machine, tape speed, track width and the maximum acceptable level of 3rd harmonic distortion, based on the user’s judgment for the type of material he/she is recording, and the dynamics of the material.

Based on Quantegy's standard testing conditions, we are looking at a recommendation for ¼” half-track @ 15ips. The test reference level for GP9 is 320 nWb/m. But here’s the important part. Under these testing conditions with that reference level the 3rd harmonic distortion is only 0.06%. So you can see just how far we have to go before true maximum operating level, which is a limitation of increasing distortion as the tape begins to saturate.

Keep in mind that 1% is pretty standard for the format. And in many cases 2% 3rd harmonic distortion is just detectable, and again depends on the material you’re recording.

A machine’s reference fluxivity can be set somewhat below a tape’s recommended maximum OPL for the cleanest, most distortion-free recordings. Where each person finds that sweet-spot between distortion and noise floor is really up to them. It also has a lot to do with how you want to read your meters. For mastering to half-track, I personally like to set my operating level a couple dB down and keep any peaks below +3 VU, for lower distortion and highest frequency response. I felt my 22-2 worked best with GP9 @ +7 referenced to 0 VU.

~Tim
:)
 
Hi guys
I own a 32 machine and since I got it I wan to calibrate for SM911, but first I start to read because RTR is a new for me , I read a lot in the past weeks but all the interesting threads like this one stops without a conclusion

Please Ethan, tell me for Tascam 32 will be better to set at 250nW or 320nW if we use the new RMG SM911?
In the input level will better to set at 316mv at 0VU or 775mv or maybe 1V for 0VU.

All my recordings will be made from a 24/192kHz DAC with an output at 2.5v RMS at 1khz 0db sine wave played from Sony Test C.D. Type 4 [YEDS-18]

I don't use this machine for professional recordings but I want to have it calibrate for SM911 at the best level possible I will use also Zonal 675 an LPR35. but all the new tape will be SM911.
One more thing, I will use the machine only at 15ips if that’s if that counts.

So how Hot will work a Tascam 32?

Best regards
Gabriel
 
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1) probably the only danger to heads is the possibility of burning out the erase head, but the electronics probably aren't up to that on a Tascam.

2) as noted, MOL is maximum output level, and does not refer to an operating level.

3) you want the tape to distort before the record electronics do, and elevated levels above what the machine was designed for run the risk of distorting record amps.

4) you may be able to test this by trying to calibrate to 520 (make sure you can bias up and get a good erase) and then record a simple test tone and increase level and then watch playback on a scope. I'm not sure, but the Tascam may have single-ended electronics driving the record head. If so, and if it is distorting before the tape saturates because the levels are set too high, you'll see asymmetrical distortion on the playback, rather than symmetrical distortion from the tape.

Cheers,

Otto
 
IIRC the '32 is factory-set for 250. It might be able to reach 320, I'm not sure.
 
If you’re not using any kind of noise reduction 320 nWb/m @ 0 VU is an option for the 32 using +6 tape like 911. You get a bit hotter signal to tape @ 0 with plenty of headroom to spare. THD will still be < 1% @ 0 VU. You won’t reach 3% distortion until you’re slamming over 1000 nWb/m. It’s all about standards really and actually having some idea where you are in reference to the VU meters. Some people stay at 250 and just bury the needles, but then your VU meters aren’t doing you much good. I like to know where I am, so I would zero @ 320 try to keep my peaks at 3 VU... and with an eye on the peak LEDs of course. I don’t want to hear the needles physically pegging against the inside of the meter. 250 nWb/m has always been a standard in North America, but 320 nWb/m is a fairly common alternative.

The 32 is designed for nominal input/output levels to be at –10 dBv (0.316 volts) and that’s how it should be calibrated. It has a maximum input/output level of +18 dB or 8.0 volts. If you have equipment with a different nominal line level of +4 or +6 it’s best to use matching transformers or resistance adaptors for that purpose.
 
Hi
I know that 32 is set at 250 but I can take advantage over the tape if i set at 320 using SM911?
Another very important thing that I still do not understand is the input level . it is better to adjust the input level as those from Tascam say at 316mv or 775mv at 0VU or 1V at 0VU.
Will be better to set the input level at 1V if the source of the recording has a high output level?

Best regards
 
Thanks Beck
My last post was after yours
So the conclusion will be:
Tascam 32
Repro flux at 320nW/m if we use SM911 LPR35 or Quantegy 456
Input level at -10db 316mv at 0VU
 
You're welcome, Gabriel

Yes that is correct. And if you could tell us what the brand and model converters or other devices you want to interface with the 32 we can also better help you with specifics, rather then speak theoretically. What product exactly do you have that you want to use with the Tascam 32? Both input and output. Connecting different line levels can be tricky, but can always be done with the right information.
 
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