tascam 38 and m512: very quiet tape playback

[christiandaelemans]

hey all, i’m finally learning how to use my tascam m512 board and the tascam 38 i acquired this summer. all is good with the board, there’s some scratches and screeches as i exercise the flows and work the thing like it probably hasn’t been in 10 years, but whenever i record to tape using sensible levels (just faintly going into red, but basically living in the middle of the vu meter), the tascam 38 has extremely quiet tape playback. granted, it doesn’t have NR. i just bought 2 units cheap last night because i’ve heard that it can combat a lot of the noisiness, and i like how it sounds on my 244.

for those that won’t read ahead: basically, my tape playback is way too quiet to be right. it’s either user error in the monitoring stage, level setting stage, or the 38 unit i’m using which i was TOLD was serviced maybe wasn’t. the heads look totally unworn, it was a unit that was barely used.

as i understand it: you go into INPUT mode to track initially, while not using the cue lever, and you stay in mic mode on the mixer while you record. the only levels that matter on the board are your trim, and your fader level. everything else is monitor related or some other facet of sound not related to levels.

then, to playback what you recorded and even to overdub, you go to sync mode, still not using the cue lever, and you go into TAPE mode on that channel strip. you then use primarily the tape trim on the 512 to hear back the tape.

you can also set some buss monitors or aux monitors to tape, but even then, i find it waaay too quiet. the sound of my real-time overdub (which i’m assuming is a function of the tascam 38, it monitors an overdub input as you play it, and you can’t turn it down) is too loud to hear the tape track i’m playing along with.

any help would be greatly appreciated!

 

[christiandaelemans]

i’m also using a samson patchbay, and i’ve tried the normal, half normal, and “middle” positions and it hasn’t effected sound. here’s a diagram of my patching scheme, as layed out in the m512 user manual. i’m only referring to the patching between the 8 track and the mixer, not the 2 track or other devices.

though, if someone could tell me how/where to connect an interface to digitize a final stereo mix, that would be appreciated.

 

[sweetbeats]

When you are playing back what you recorded, do you see meter activity on the 38? And if yes, was the tape blank before you recorded? Like can we have confidence the meter activity you see is what you recorded?

I have a hunch it has to do with your settings on the console, but step 1 is to verify you actually printed something to tape.

I wish I still had an M-500 console here…I’d make an “M-500 Basics” video and put it up on YouTube. 99% of the problems people have with an M-500 have to do with basic routing and monitoring and how these consoles are setup and work compared to a lot of other consoles.

 

[christiandaelemans]

When you are playing back what you recorded, do you see meter activity on the 38? And if yes, was the tape blank before you recorded? Like can we have confidence the meter activity you see is what you recorded?

I have a hunch it has to do with your settings on the console, but step 1 is to verify you actually printed something to tape.

I wish I still had an M-500 console here…I’d make an “M-500 Basics” video and put it up on YouTube. 99% of the problems people have with an M-500 have to do with basic routing and monitoring and how these consoles are setup and work compared to a lot of other consoles.

yes, i see meter activity but it is very faint. much less activity than both the console and decks vu activity while tracking. it was a blank tape, an ATR master tape. the guy who sold me the deck said the company who serviced it told him to always use ATR master tape, so unless they knew nothing about how to service or calibrate, it might be a user error with my console. but i also just wanna verify that my deck isn’t busted.

i did just clean the heads, and a good bit of gunk came off. i thought it was maybe a normal amount, but just now i also took a second to clean the heads of a 244 that i’ve been using for months and NOTHING came off. i guess reels get a lot more dirty. but still, the playback was very faint with the reel to reel even after i cleaned the heads.

it sounds quiet, a lot of hiss, and pushing the console pres just make it sound pathetically compressed and crackled. would it help to send a picture of my console controls when i’m trying to monitor the tape?

 

[christiandaelemans]

as i’m reading the user manual for the m512, the patching scheme that i lifted from the manual makes it seem like there’s some extra patching adjustment or device needed to “remix” in this patching scheme. does that mean that i’m set up to track instead of listen back to the tape deck in that configuration? oh boy, i was excited about getting a big ol console with knobs galore but if only i properly knew how to patch the way i want.

 

[sweetbeats]

If you see strong meter activity when monitoring the input on the 38, but very little on playback, then it’s not a matter of the console. Is the meter activity in the 38 also faint when the 38 is set to repro instead of sync?

 

[christiandaelemans]

If you see strong meter activity when monitoring the input on the 38, but very little on playback, then it’s not a matter of the console. Is the meter activity in the 38 also faint when the 38 is set to repro instead of sync?

yep. but it gets noticeably clearer sounding, just more high frequency information.

 

[christiandaelemans]

okay wait… just ran a test on track 3. my voice was A LOT louder than it has been every other time. i did also just mute every aux except the channel im listening to.

 

[sweetbeats]

It’s hard to follow what you’re doing because I have no idea how you have stuff hooked up. Let’s make sure though we’re using the same terminology: track = tape track, not mixer channel. That may be exactly what you mean by “track” above, but a lot of times people use the term “track” when they’re talking about a mixer input channel. And I’m not sure why it would make any difference to mute AUX channels…but, again, I have no idea how you have stuff hooked up.

 

[christiandaelemans]

It’s hard to follow what you’re doing because I have no idea how you have stuff hooked up. Let’s make sure though we’re using the same terminology: track = tape track, not mixer channel. That may be exactly what you mean by “track” above, but a lot of times people use the term “track” when they’re talking about a mixer input channel. And I’m not sure why it would make any difference to mute AUX channels…but, again, I have no idea how you have stuff hooked up.

sorry for the confusion. the way i hooked up my unit, track 3 on tape and track 3 on the mixer are one and the same. at least, that’s how i’ll use it. but, i think the results of the clearer sound is the fact that after that initial head cleaning, i got bored and just started listening to music and cleaning them again.

i remember hearing “do it until you don’t get any brown on a q tip”. so i did em all again, until the q tip was white, and that might be what i’m hearing now. as the manual said (or maybe it was a post on this forum…) that even the most infinitesimally small amount of dirt/oxide on the heads surface can impact the sound a lot. some little thousandth of an inch of it can do the trick.

but, assuming everything works now: how take the stereo signal from this mixer into a 2 channel interface? the 244 is quite simple with its line out on the back, but there’s many options on the back of the 512.

 

[sweetbeats]

“…track 3 on tape and track 3 on the mixer…”

This is exactly what I was talking about…what you mean to say is “…track 3 on tape and channel 3 on the mixer…” Referring to the mixer channels correctly as channels avoids confusion. And even more specifically it helps to say what inputs are being used. I’m assuming the TAPE jacks are what the outputs from the 38 are hooked up to.

I don’t know how you have your 38 inputs connected…if it was me, and what was intended, is the 8 PGM group outputs connect to the 8 tape machine inputs, and then of course the tape machine outputs connect to the channel 1-8 TAPE inputs.

The STEREO A/B outputs are actually intended or are setup to be your CONTROL ROOM and STUDIO feeds respectively…that’s how they’re setup, but they labeled them “STEREO” I think just to promote flexibility. But STEREO A connects to your control room monitor speakers and then STEREO B goes to the speakers in the recording room…STEREO B carries talkback faculties so you can communicate with the talent. So then to your question about how best to feed your 2-channel computer audio interface…I think some people use the STEREO A output to do that and that’s perfectly fine, but notice there are actually two output jacks for each PGM group. So I’d have one set 1-8 going to the 38 inputs, and I’d use 2 of the jacks from the second set (like PGM 1 & 2) and connect that to my master recorder (which in your case is your audio interface). Don’t get twisted up in “how does that work…how can I have PGM 1 & 2 outs connected to track 1 & 2 inputs on the 38 AND to my interface?” Process-wise you won’t be multitracking to the 38 and mastering to the computer at the same time. First you multitrack, and then you mix down and master. The advantage of using the PGM outputs vs the STEREO outputs is there’s a whole host of amplifier stages you eliminate by using the PGM outs. So it’s a cleaner and quieter access point for the signal. Using the PGM outs to feed your multitrack and master recorders is also great because every input channel can be routed to one or more PGM groups. Think of the groups as an infinitely variable and flexible internal patchbay and you patch using the assign switches and PAN controls on each input channel. And furthermore the M-500 series with its monitor mixer allows you to monitor those groups and create a submix that’s independent of you PGM mix. So that’s how I’d do it.

 

[RRuskin]

Has your 38 been calibrated? What kind of tape are you using? Do you have the user manuals for the mixer and machine? Are you aware that once a 38 is calibrated, ALL work is to be done in sync mode?

 

[christiandaelemans]

Has your 38 been calibrated? What kind of tape are you using? Do you have the user manuals for the mixer and machine? Are you aware that once a 38 is calibrated, ALL work is to be done in sync mode?

i’m not sure if it’s been calibrated, i’m assuming it has considering the dude i bought it from told
me it was serviced. it uses ATR mastering tape, which is the tape he gave me and the tape he said it was calibrated to use. the sync mode is something i learned today, and i’m starting to hear my signal with it.

though i wish i could turn down the monitoring that i’m assuming is coming from the recorder itself when it enters record mode. i could be in a mode on the mixer that gives me no mic monitoring at all, but when i press record and it starts rolling, i can hear myself and pretty loudly too.

 

[christiandaelemans]

“…track 3 on tape and track 3 on the mixer…”

This is exactly what I was talking about…what you mean to say is “…track 3 on tape and channel 3 on the mixer…” Referring to the mixer channels correctly as channels avoids confusion. And even more specifically it helps to say what inputs are being used. I’m assuming the TAPE jacks are what the outputs from the 38 are hooked up to.

I don’t know how you have your 38 inputs connected…if it was me, and what was intended, is the 8 PGM group outputs connect to the 8 tape machine inputs, and then of course the tape machine outputs connect to the channel 1-8 TAPE inputs.

The STEREO A/B outputs are actually intended or are setup to be your CONTROL ROOM and STUDIO feeds respectively…that’s how they’re setup, but they labeled them “STEREO” I think just to promote flexibility. But STEREO A connects to your control room monitor speakers and then STEREO B goes to the speakers in the recording room…STEREO B carries talkback faculties so you can communicate with the talent. So then to your question about how best to feed your 2-channel computer audio interface…I think some people use the STEREO A output to do that and that’s perfectly fine, but notice there are actually two output jacks for each PGM group. So I’d have one set 1-8 going to the 38 inputs, and I’d use 2 of the jacks from the second set (like PGM 1 & 2) and connect that to my master recorder (which in your case is your audio interface). Don’t get twisted up in “how does that work…how can I have PGM 1 & 2 outs connected to track 1 & 2 inputs on the 38 AND to my interface?” Process-wise you won’t be multitracking to the 38 and mastering to the computer at the same time. First you multitrack, and then you mix down and master. The advantage of using the PGM outputs vs the STEREO outputs is there’s a whole host of amplifier stages you eliminate by using the PGM outs. So it’s a cleaner and quieter access point for the signal. Using the PGM outs to feed your multitrack and master recorders is also great because every input channel can be routed to one or more PGM groups. Think of the groups as an infinitely variable and flexible internal patchbay and you patch using the assign switches and PAN controls on each input channel. And furthermore the M-500 series with its monitor mixer allows you to monitor those groups and create a submix that’s independent of you PGM mix. So that’s how I’d do it.

my bad once again. i think too narrowly about this stuff. and yes, i’m using the PGM outs to get the signal to the tape recorder. i do run the tape machine outs through the meter bridge upper rca connections (EXT IN), which then run an rca-to-rca snake from the meter bridge outs (FLB) to the TAPE IN sections.

and thanks for the many options on getting a stereo signal to an interface. i find it fascinating that this console almost seems at home in a semi-professional recording studio, control room and all. i guess it was a step above tascams “home recording” lines of mixers. or maybe it was for a different kind of home studio, for folks who own 48 or 58 recorders, or even ms16s (for the m520).

my console is probably in need of a servicing, because the talk back mic you mentioned will cut in and out of audio, as will channel 4 occasionally. i had it working today though, it’s almost like you gotta get audio running through it enough and it wakes up and stays put.

 

[RRuskin]

You are making assumptions that are causing most of your problems. You really need to read the manual for both units.

 

[ecc83]

Are you sure you have not got the tape 'inside out'? Don't feel bad if so, most of us have got it twisted at some stage! Some tapes have a matte backing and it can be very hard to tell from the oxide side.

Another reason could be a clogged head they sometimes need a LOT of cleaning.

Dave.

 

[christiandaelemans]

Are you sure you have not got the tape 'inside out'? Don't feel bad if so, most of us have got it twisted at some stage! Some tapes have a matte backing and it can be very hard to tell from the oxide side.

Another reason could be a clogged head they sometimes need a LOT of cleaning.

Dave.

now that the tape is working a lot better, i believe the clogged head was what it was. it took about 5 q tips before they started coming back white.

and yes, i’m 10000% sure my tape is on the right side. smooth, shiny brown side towards the heads, and the matte black side towards the tires.