sweetbeats
Reel deep thoughts...
I’ve seen your post…will respond in detail when I have a chance to do so.
Reel to Reel Machine - Head, Lifters, Rollers, Technical Issues?
- Thread starter horeq
- Start date
sweetbeats
Reel deep thoughts...
I watched the video. It looks to me like the tape is touching the bottom of the center guide rather than the top, and actually bottoming hard enough the tape is buckling or curling a little bit. Am I seeing that right?
I don’t know how to say “no” strongly enough. Your very question freaks me out. Relapping is a precision process. Never, ever, ever, ever take any kind of power or rotary tool near a tape machine head.
To be perfectly honest, what I see there looks like sticky shed. “Rough” heads shouldn’t even cause that sort of shedding. I know you said you tested the tape on another machine and it was fine, but I still maintain that looks like sticky shed on your sync head.
Calibration has to do with the electronics. If you have some place like JRF Magnetic Sciences relap the assembly, they will adjust the wrap angles and all that. You’ll want to probably do a fine azimuth check. It should be close.
I’m not sure I can answer that for you. Clearly you have tape path issues and I’m not convinced you don’t also have problems with your tape. Leaving something alone is *always* an option, in doing so you just choose to accept whatever the compromises are of doing that. Obviously if you don’t have the money, sending it out for a professional relap is not an option. If it was me, that’s what I’d be saving up to do. You can do nothing, which clearly is not what you chose because you rotated the guides already, right? And in doing so the tape may no longer be able to effectively contact the surface of the heads, at least not until the new wear path is established…it’s not such a big deal if the flattened area on the face of the head is narrow, but the wider it is the more problematic it is. It is possible to relap your own heads…Nortronics published a how-to guide some decades ago…but you have to have the right supplies, equipment, and work space to do it and evaluate progress and outcome. The reality is, if done wrong, you can permanently ruin your heads. And once done, if successful, you have to have the know-how to re-mount the heads and adjust the position for optimum performance and wear characteristics. That is what DIY relapping looks like. Not for the faint of heart. I have no interest in trying it because of what’s at stake, and what could happen if it doesn’t go well. Also because of the critical work to reassemble and correctly position all the tape path components. So if you’ve already rotated your guides, there’s no going back there. If you can’t afford the professional relap and setup, and you aren’t up to trying to do it yourself, your only option, really, is to leave it as it is and run it. I can’t tell if you have sticky tape, old sticky tape deposits that haven’t been cleaned, an Ampex/Quantegy-established tape path that is more narrow than your current tape and that’s part of the problem, or damaged heads…some combination of all three? Hard to say. Have you truly thoroughly cleaned the tape path? What are you using to clean it? You need to use 91% or higher isopropyl alcohol, or good quality denatured alcohol, and don’t bother with cotton swabs. When there is buildup like that you have to use either cotton makeup remover pads or a 100% cotton cloth, and it can take a fair amount of work to get stubborn sticky shed off the tape path. It looks like somebody had to do a bunch of something at some point and/or used the wrong kind of chemical, because the information printed on the labels on top of the heads are partially worn off. I’ve never seen that before.
Another advantage to having heads professionally relapped is you can ask them to cut edge slots on the face of the heads eliminating the possibility of ever having to deal with tape edge issues as the wear path progresses. Some heads came from the factory like that.
Okay…I guess you can do that, but keep in mind if it’s not there on tape you’re not going to create it with EQ. I would only consider that option as a temporary band-aide solution. You do realize you could correct that or identify if there’s really a problem by calibrating the machine as I mentioned earlier, right? And if I’m right that there is some stubborn sticky shed buildup on the tape path you could improve the performance by properly getting that all cleaned up.
Yes that is the first priority. Get the tape path throughly cleaned and try running the tape again. It’s hard to understand how tape exhibits flaky shed like you posted earlier, but runs fine on another machine. Get it throughly cleaned up, put your tape on and capture and share some video footage of what happens when you run your tape on your machine.
That’s the repro head you have pictured there. It is normal for the head to have a flattened area on the face as it wears. When it is new or freshly relapped there is indeed a curved contour to it. But that begins to be flattened the first time you roll tape on it, and it progresses from there. As I mentioned earlier the width of the flattened area on your heads looks like nominal wear to me.
There is absolutely no way to know that without specialized equipment and a microscope. You have to know the factory spec on the tip depth when new, and those typically are not published specs…professional service providers have gathered this information by measuring the tip depth of new heads of different types and manufacturers so they can compare head life and serviceability of a head when they get it in for evaluation. A relapped head looks like a new head. A worn head looks like a worn head and there’s no way to know how many times if any it’s been relapped unless you can measure the tip depth…no way to know the remaining life without that. The only way to know a head’s state for sure is if it is A. brand new, or B. you can see one or more coil gaps opening up and it’s done…new, or dead. Those are the only states and end user can determine without measuring tip depth. Every single listing of a tape machine that says anything like “heads look good” or “heads look like the have a lot of life left” is totally meaningless. Its not even worth discussing unless there is a head report and verifiable hours operated since the report was generated. Period.
I don’t know how to say “no” strongly enough. Your very question freaks me out. Relapping is a precision process. Never, ever, ever, ever take any kind of power or rotary tool near a tape machine head.
To be perfectly honest, what I see there looks like sticky shed. “Rough” heads shouldn’t even cause that sort of shedding. I know you said you tested the tape on another machine and it was fine, but I still maintain that looks like sticky shed on your sync head.
Calibration has to do with the electronics. If you have some place like JRF Magnetic Sciences relap the assembly, they will adjust the wrap angles and all that. You’ll want to probably do a fine azimuth check. It should be close.
I’m not sure I can answer that for you. Clearly you have tape path issues and I’m not convinced you don’t also have problems with your tape. Leaving something alone is *always* an option, in doing so you just choose to accept whatever the compromises are of doing that. Obviously if you don’t have the money, sending it out for a professional relap is not an option. If it was me, that’s what I’d be saving up to do. You can do nothing, which clearly is not what you chose because you rotated the guides already, right? And in doing so the tape may no longer be able to effectively contact the surface of the heads, at least not until the new wear path is established…it’s not such a big deal if the flattened area on the face of the head is narrow, but the wider it is the more problematic it is. It is possible to relap your own heads…Nortronics published a how-to guide some decades ago…but you have to have the right supplies, equipment, and work space to do it and evaluate progress and outcome. The reality is, if done wrong, you can permanently ruin your heads. And once done, if successful, you have to have the know-how to re-mount the heads and adjust the position for optimum performance and wear characteristics. That is what DIY relapping looks like. Not for the faint of heart. I have no interest in trying it because of what’s at stake, and what could happen if it doesn’t go well. Also because of the critical work to reassemble and correctly position all the tape path components. So if you’ve already rotated your guides, there’s no going back there. If you can’t afford the professional relap and setup, and you aren’t up to trying to do it yourself, your only option, really, is to leave it as it is and run it. I can’t tell if you have sticky tape, old sticky tape deposits that haven’t been cleaned, an Ampex/Quantegy-established tape path that is more narrow than your current tape and that’s part of the problem, or damaged heads…some combination of all three? Hard to say. Have you truly thoroughly cleaned the tape path? What are you using to clean it? You need to use 91% or higher isopropyl alcohol, or good quality denatured alcohol, and don’t bother with cotton swabs. When there is buildup like that you have to use either cotton makeup remover pads or a 100% cotton cloth, and it can take a fair amount of work to get stubborn sticky shed off the tape path. It looks like somebody had to do a bunch of something at some point and/or used the wrong kind of chemical, because the information printed on the labels on top of the heads are partially worn off. I’ve never seen that before.
Another advantage to having heads professionally relapped is you can ask them to cut edge slots on the face of the heads eliminating the possibility of ever having to deal with tape edge issues as the wear path progresses. Some heads came from the factory like that.
Okay…I guess you can do that, but keep in mind if it’s not there on tape you’re not going to create it with EQ. I would only consider that option as a temporary band-aide solution. You do realize you could correct that or identify if there’s really a problem by calibrating the machine as I mentioned earlier, right? And if I’m right that there is some stubborn sticky shed buildup on the tape path you could improve the performance by properly getting that all cleaned up.
Yes that is the first priority. Get the tape path throughly cleaned and try running the tape again. It’s hard to understand how tape exhibits flaky shed like you posted earlier, but runs fine on another machine. Get it throughly cleaned up, put your tape on and capture and share some video footage of what happens when you run your tape on your machine.
That’s the repro head you have pictured there. It is normal for the head to have a flattened area on the face as it wears. When it is new or freshly relapped there is indeed a curved contour to it. But that begins to be flattened the first time you roll tape on it, and it progresses from there. As I mentioned earlier the width of the flattened area on your heads looks like nominal wear to me.
There is absolutely no way to know that without specialized equipment and a microscope. You have to know the factory spec on the tip depth when new, and those typically are not published specs…professional service providers have gathered this information by measuring the tip depth of new heads of different types and manufacturers so they can compare head life and serviceability of a head when they get it in for evaluation. A relapped head looks like a new head. A worn head looks like a worn head and there’s no way to know how many times if any it’s been relapped unless you can measure the tip depth…no way to know the remaining life without that. The only way to know a head’s state for sure is if it is A. brand new, or B. you can see one or more coil gaps opening up and it’s done…new, or dead. Those are the only states and end user can determine without measuring tip depth. Every single listing of a tape machine that says anything like “heads look good” or “heads look like the have a lot of life left” is totally meaningless. Its not even worth discussing unless there is a head report and verifiable hours operated since the report was generated. Period.
Thanks for pointing out the curling, I think it's coming from the heads not being smooth and even?
I think the Sync and Repro heads have some of this wear out happening below, due to the tape as shown in my diagram. This may also be a cause for the curling?
I have exaggerated it a bit though in my diagram above.
I use Isopropyl Alcohol 99%.
I have some cotton makeup remover pads, I'll try cleaning it more again.
I think you are correct, it is possibly also some sticky tape shedding happening here.
I am using this rubber cleaner I bought decades ago for the Erase head and pinch rollers, as the erase head has plastic around the erase head. Do you think there is something better/affordable I could use, like Windex for the erase head?
How do I clean and get into the tape pits in the Erase head?
I am looking for budget conscious solutions for these problems
I think the Sync and Repro heads have some of this wear out happening below, due to the tape as shown in my diagram. This may also be a cause for the curling?
I have exaggerated it a bit though in my diagram above.
I use Isopropyl Alcohol 99%.
I have some cotton makeup remover pads, I'll try cleaning it more again.
I think you are correct, it is possibly also some sticky tape shedding happening here.
I am using this rubber cleaner I bought decades ago for the Erase head and pinch rollers, as the erase head has plastic around the erase head. Do you think there is something better/affordable I could use, like Windex for the erase head?
How do I clean and get into the tape pits in the Erase head?
I am looking for budget conscious solutions for these problems
sweetbeats
Reel deep thoughts...
Curling/lifting in the wear groove of a head will not cause curling/lifting in a guide.
Curling/lifting in a guide, in your case, since you rotated the guides, is cause by a maladjusted guide.
Curling/lifting in the wear groove of a head is caused either by a maladjusted guide, or a too-narrow wear pattern for the tape you are using which I’ve mentioned several times. The ONLY way to resolve that is with a relap.
DO NOT…use rubber renew for cleaning the erase head. That product is for…wait for it…rubber. You use the same thing to clean the erase head as you do the record and repro heads…use the isopropyl alcohol. It won’t damage the plastic. Notice the alcohol you have is in a plastic bottle.
I know you’re trying to do things on a budget, but what you’re going to have to accept at some point is tape machine maintenance and repair is expensive, and there is no short-cutting these expenses, unless you are okay with compromising performance and longevity. That’s the reality of it. And if you’re coming here to find support and validation for shortcuts and mistreatment of a tape machine you’re not going to get guidance from me in that direction. I’m all about finding ways to efficiently and reasonably do things, but with a tape machine you can’t expect not doing what is required is going to elicit the desired results. It just doesn’t work that way.
I’ve repeated myself several times regarding what I recommend and what I see happening with your 52. You have the opportunity at this point to digest and follow what I’m advising or not. But I’m not going to continue repeating myself. No offense or disrespect meant, but I’ve outlined what I think you need to do, and I respect if you choose otherwise. Just don’t expect the results you desire if you do so.
Curling/lifting in a guide, in your case, since you rotated the guides, is cause by a maladjusted guide.
Curling/lifting in the wear groove of a head is caused either by a maladjusted guide, or a too-narrow wear pattern for the tape you are using which I’ve mentioned several times. The ONLY way to resolve that is with a relap.
DO NOT…use rubber renew for cleaning the erase head. That product is for…wait for it…rubber. You use the same thing to clean the erase head as you do the record and repro heads…use the isopropyl alcohol. It won’t damage the plastic. Notice the alcohol you have is in a plastic bottle.
I know you’re trying to do things on a budget, but what you’re going to have to accept at some point is tape machine maintenance and repair is expensive, and there is no short-cutting these expenses, unless you are okay with compromising performance and longevity. That’s the reality of it. And if you’re coming here to find support and validation for shortcuts and mistreatment of a tape machine you’re not going to get guidance from me in that direction. I’m all about finding ways to efficiently and reasonably do things, but with a tape machine you can’t expect not doing what is required is going to elicit the desired results. It just doesn’t work that way.
I’ve repeated myself several times regarding what I recommend and what I see happening with your 52. You have the opportunity at this point to digest and follow what I’m advising or not. But I’m not going to continue repeating myself. No offense or disrespect meant, but I’ve outlined what I think you need to do, and I respect if you choose otherwise. Just don’t expect the results you desire if you do so.
@sweetbeats, what should I use to clean the rubber pinch rollers?
I don't think that blue stuff is rubber renew.
I am listening to what you are saying, it is very good information which I am using partially and will use the others later in the future when my funds can dedicate some portion to get the 52 back to its glory. This info will also be helpful for others who may be in similar situations.
@RFR, that depends, there are some cases in poor countries where used parts are used as long as it is within "safety tollerance" (that's if they follow it)? ie. helmets.
I don't think that blue stuff is rubber renew.
I am listening to what you are saying, it is very good information which I am using partially and will use the others later in the future when my funds can dedicate some portion to get the 52 back to its glory. This info will also be helpful for others who may be in similar situations.
@RFR, that depends, there are some cases in poor countries where used parts are used as long as it is within "safety tollerance" (that's if they follow it)? ie. helmets.
sweetbeats
Reel deep thoughts...
I was using the term “rubber renew” generically…referring to your rubber cleaner. You only have one pinch roller. The rubber roller on the takeup side. I usually use water to clean the rubber rollers, Windex if something more is needed. Your rubber rollers are in need of replacement/rebuilding…you can try to use your rubber cleaner in them but it’s only going to do so much.
I think this needs de-magnetising due to the roll off in the high frequencies from the Logic frequency response and the units history of use.
I am considering making this DIY demagnetiser, seems easy, just need to find an old motor for the windings.
What is the deal with those vintage demagnetisers on sale, does age make them useless, lose its demagnetising power?
Also, most demagnetisers seems to be made from USA and are the US two prong 110v plugs. Any issues using a 220 to 110 inverter to use it on the Tascam 52, which is 50hz Australian power?
Sure I get that.
But once a pinch roller is shot, it’s shot. Period.
My experience with these ‘rubber cleaners and conditioners’ is that they don’t work and often make it worse.
Getting a new one is inevitable.
jamesperrett
Active member
Before you do anything more, clean the tape path thoroughly and then try a brand new tape. I still reckon that your problem is a bad tape. Trying to make your own demagnetiser is likely to only make things worse - possibly irretrievably worse. If you accidentally magnetise the heads badly enough you may not be able to de-magnetise them again.
sweetbeats
Reel deep thoughts...
I 100% agree with both @RFR and @jamesperrett…that’s not the kind of HF detriment you get with magnetization. That is not your problem. You always, always, always start with the most obvious and easiest thing to do…throughly and appropriately clean the tape path. Then verify your tape is okay. Just start there. I also would not make my own degausser when I can buy a reputable one for $60 or whatever.
[EDIT]
The kind of diminished HF performance you are experiencing is typically caused by soiled heads, bad tape-to-head contact either through soilage or maladjustment, bad tape, bad heads, or improper electronics setup and calibration. We’ve brought these points up repeatedly. And there is a process to go through to rule out each one. The process is important. Clean your tape path first.
[EDIT]
The kind of diminished HF performance you are experiencing is typically caused by soiled heads, bad tape-to-head contact either through soilage or maladjustment, bad tape, bad heads, or improper electronics setup and calibration. We’ve brought these points up repeatedly. And there is a process to go through to rule out each one. The process is important. Clean your tape path first.
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sweetbeats
Reel deep thoughts...
You keep asking questions, and getting informed answers. You then are disregarding some of those answers and conjecturing your own reasoning. Either ask the questions and follow the advice or don’t. Taking time to thoughtfully respond to your questions only to have you veer off in a different direction is not a valuable way for any of us to spend time, including you.
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jamesperrett
Active member
Sadly it seems to be a trend with some people who buy old tape machines. There has been a very similar and frustrating thread on the SOS forum very recently. Mind you - I also steer clear of Tapeheads these days because it is full of people who pose as experts yet have little idea of what they are talking about.
TalismanRich
Well-known member
I hate to say it, but statements like this point to a fundemental lack of understanding of the whole proscess of recording tape and even basic electronics.
"What is the deal with those vintage demagnetisers on sale, does age make them useless, lose its demagnetising power?
Also, most demagnetisers seems to be made from USA and are the US two prong 110v plugs. Any issues using a 220 to 110 inverter to use it on the Tascam 52, which is 50hz Australian power?"
Buying a old tape deck is almost akin to buying a vintage car. Either you understand about setting points, changing shocks and adjusting valves and carbs, or you pay someone to do it. Buying something with the idea that you can just throw a tape on get like new performance is wishful thinking. These machines are now 30-40 years old, and in many cases, have been mostly sitting idle for a decade or so.
I don't want to discourage someone from learning how things work, but when a professional gives advice on something, you really should pay attention.
"What is the deal with those vintage demagnetisers on sale, does age make them useless, lose its demagnetising power?
Also, most demagnetisers seems to be made from USA and are the US two prong 110v plugs. Any issues using a 220 to 110 inverter to use it on the Tascam 52, which is 50hz Australian power?"
Buying a old tape deck is almost akin to buying a vintage car. Either you understand about setting points, changing shocks and adjusting valves and carbs, or you pay someone to do it. Buying something with the idea that you can just throw a tape on get like new performance is wishful thinking. These machines are now 30-40 years old, and in many cases, have been mostly sitting idle for a decade or so.
I don't want to discourage someone from learning how things work, but when a professional gives advice on something, you really should pay attention.
I will be giving it a thorough clean again with the makeup removal pads, just been trying to find replacement parts or alternatives for this unit (pinch roller) and an affordable new tape.
I have been following the suggestions, but I am also offering possible suggestions.
I have checked the relap service, and I am still figuring out options as all these professional services are not cheap.
@TalismanRich, you are correct. I only know very surface knowledge about tape or electronics. Paint by numbers, but I am very excited about my Reel to Reel machine, especially with the tarnished audio results I am getting, so I am trying to make it work with my limited budget and knowledge.
Think of it like this, you just got passed down a Ferari, though it needs TLC, you really can't afford to own it, for whatever time you have with it, you still want to take it for a spin.
If I had the money, I would just buy a Reel to Reel Machine that has been serviced and checked properly, but it is what it is.
Appreciate all the replies!
I have been following the suggestions, but I am also offering possible suggestions.
I have checked the relap service, and I am still figuring out options as all these professional services are not cheap.
@TalismanRich, you are correct. I only know very surface knowledge about tape or electronics. Paint by numbers, but I am very excited about my Reel to Reel machine, especially with the tarnished audio results I am getting, so I am trying to make it work with my limited budget and knowledge.
Think of it like this, you just got passed down a Ferari, though it needs TLC, you really can't afford to own it, for whatever time you have with it, you still want to take it for a spin.
If I had the money, I would just buy a Reel to Reel Machine that has been serviced and checked properly, but it is what it is.
Appreciate all the replies!
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Does anyone know the exact dimensions and specifications for the Pinch Roller tyre? I can't seem to find the dimensions on the Service Manual. The Part#: 5800347601 based on the exploded diagram.
I presume they are made to be flat and not concave or angled in any way?
I am trying to source someone local to make the tyre if possible.
Thank you.
I presume they are made to be flat and not concave or angled in any way?
I am trying to source someone local to make the tyre if possible.
Thank you.
There’s already guys who are true professionals who make them. I’d much rather go for one of them than a person who lacks familiarity. Why add more complexity?
@RFR, let us be realistic here, approx. $280 AUD including postage for a rubber tyre with bearings. Tascam has already done the R&D on the pinch rollers.
$150AUD for 2 lifter sleeves that are about 6cms in total. I can get smooth brass or stainless steel 30cms tube that I can cut to length for $10AUD including free postage. If I need it to be super smooth, I can buy 2200 grit wet and dry sandpaper for $4 with free shipping.
Not knocking these companies as they are experts in the field, but I do not believe in their pricing and whether these alternatives I suggested cannot compete with their products.
If my machine isn't calibrated properly anyways, are there any additional benefits for me spending $200 on sleeves whose purpose is to lift the tape for fast forward and rewind, when I believe my $10 stainless steel tubes could do as better job?
I appreciate your post RFR, just explaining why
$150AUD for 2 lifter sleeves that are about 6cms in total. I can get smooth brass or stainless steel 30cms tube that I can cut to length for $10AUD including free postage. If I need it to be super smooth, I can buy 2200 grit wet and dry sandpaper for $4 with free shipping.
Not knocking these companies as they are experts in the field, but I do not believe in their pricing and whether these alternatives I suggested cannot compete with their products.
If my machine isn't calibrated properly anyways, are there any additional benefits for me spending $200 on sleeves whose purpose is to lift the tape for fast forward and rewind, when I believe my $10 stainless steel tubes could do as better job?
I appreciate your post RFR, just explaining why
Where you at, Australia? Not familiar with your currency exchange rates
I bought a NOS Tascam replacement for a 16 track for 90 USD tax & shipping
Seemed a bit high but demand determines prices.
The pain of the purchase is over and forgotten, and I’m happy with having a new Pinch roller.
I bought a NOS Tascam replacement for a 16 track for 90 USD tax & shipping
Seemed a bit high but demand determines prices.
The pain of the purchase is over and forgotten, and I’m happy with having a new Pinch roller.