Greg_L mix contest/clinic/critique - just for shits and grins

  • Thread starter Thread starter Greg_L
  • Start date Start date
Greg,

You've been a great help. I've learned a lot from this exercise. Thanks again. Here's my final mix, but first, some things I learned.

1) Great sounding tracks don't need lot's of effects, they mostly just need the correct volume.
2) Mixing drum tracks requires removing un-wanted bleed. Gating is important.
3) EQ'ing drums is important. Logic has built in EQ settings for snare, kick, toms, overheads. I didn't know this, but now I do, and they work.
4) Always check phase on drums (thanks RAMI). I also noticed that the overhead tracks seem out of phase with each other. When I flipped the phase on one of them for this last mix, a lot of the swishy cymbal sound disappeared.
5) Reverb on drums is important. The kick, snare and toms should sound like they are coming from the same room (thanks Greg)
6) There's some pretty talented people on this forum

 
guitar zero said:
2) Mixing drum tracks requires removing un-wanted bleed. Gating is important.
Click to expand...
That's a matter of opinion. I didn't gate them.
Logic has built in EQ settings for snare, kick, toms, overheads. I didn't know this, but now I do, and they work.
Click to expand...
Pre-sets? Don't fall into that habit. It's impossible that they "work". You might get lucky once in a while, but you should really learn to EQ for yourself.
4) Always check phase on drums (thanks RAMI). I also noticed that the overhead tracks seem out of phase with each other. When I flipped the phase on one of them for this last mix, a lot of the swishy cymbal sound disappeared.
Click to expand...
Actually, the reason a lor of the swishy sound of the cymbals diappeared is because you just put them out of phase with each other. But it couldn't have sounded better. Out of phase overheads is the last thing you want.
 
guitar zero said:
1) Great sounding tracks don't need lot's of effects, they mostly just need the correct volume.
Click to expand...
True
guitar zero said:
2) Mixing drum tracks requires removing un-wanted bleed. Gating is important.
Click to expand...
Not always. In fact I used gates on toms with a lot of dry left in, meaning there was only a slight reduction of bleed. I doesn't really make any audible difference bypassing these gates.
guitar zero said:
3) EQ'ing drums is important. Logic has built in EQ settings for snare, kick, toms, overheads. I didn't know this, but now I do, and they work.
Click to expand...
I didn't EQ these drums at all. It's more important to get the sound you want at the start.
guitar zero said:
4) Always check phase on drums (thanks RAMI). I also noticed that the overhead tracks seem out of phase with each other. When I flipped the phase on one of them for this last mix, a lot of the swishy cymbal sound disappeared.
Click to expand...
They seemed in phase to me.
guitar zero said:
5) Reverb on drums is important. The kick, snare and toms should sound like they are coming from the same room (thanks Greg)
Click to expand...
It's not always important, especially if you want tight, dry drums, but yeah it's generally a good make them sound like they are from the same room. This doesn't always mean applying the same reverb however.
guitar zero said:
6) There's some pretty talented people on this forum
Click to expand...
Why thank you :D

RAMI said:
But it couldn't have sounded better. Out of phase overheads is the last thing you want.
Click to expand...
That's not the case on every track though. Most people, myself included, prefer your drums to mine. I think the main difference is your out of phase snare. ;)
 
Last edited:
pandamonk said:
That's not the case on every track though. Most people, myself included, prefer your drums to mine. I think the main difference is your out of phase snare. ;)
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I understand. What's "Not the case on every track"???
And, actually, my snare is in phase is this tune. It was recorded out of phase to the overheads and had to be flipped to be in phase. :)
 
Last edited:
I hate that I missed this. I could've really butchered this song and made all of your mixes sound even better. :D


Nice work Greg.
 
RAMI said:
I'm not sure I understand. What's "Not the case on every track"???
And, actually, my snare is in phase is this tune. It was recorded out of phase to the overheads and had to be flipped to be in phase. :)
Click to expand...
Sometimes "mistakes" can sound good.

I believe that yours is out of phase. The original is out of phase, but sounds closer to what it should sound that your reversed phase snare. I'm not arguing against the fact that yours sound good however. :D
 
pandamonk said:
I believe that yours is out of phase. The original is out of phase, but sounds closer to what it should sound that your reversed phase snare. I'm not arguing against the fact that yours sound good however. :D
Click to expand...
Well, I'm not going to spend too much time nit-picking here...but, I have to insist again that mine is IN phase. On the original track, the snare mic is OUT of phase with the overheads. What I did made it sound closer to what it should sound like because it's the way it would be if the mics were picking up an in-phase sound. Anyway, it's hard to define what "what it should sound like" means, but my phase inversion made it closer to what the ears would hear in the room. Everyone else's snare sounded very thing for a reason....it was out of phase.
 
RAMI said:
Well, I'm not going to spend too much time nit-picking here...but, I have to insist again that mine is IN phase. On the original track, the snare mic is OUT of phase with the overheads. What I did made it sound closer to what it should sound like because it's the way it would be if the mics were picking up an in-phase sound. Anyway, it's hard to define what "what it should sound like" means, but my phase inversion made it closer to what the ears would hear in the room. Everyone else's snare sounded very thing for a reason....it was out of phase.
Click to expand...
An in phase sound would sound like the snare mic on its own with a bit of overheads. The solo'd snare sound does sound quite thin.

But yeah, I was just trying to say that "problems" are sometimes beneficial.
 
RAMI said:
That's a matter of opinion. I didn't gate them.
Pre-sets? Don't fall into that habit. It's impossible that they "work". You might get lucky once in a while, but you should really learn to EQ for yourself.
Click to expand...

I totally understand and agree, but remember, before this exercise I had ZERO experience mixing drums. The presets gave me a great clue as to what frequencies are important for emphasizing in drum tracks. I had no idea, and before I found the presets, my drums were sounding like shite after many attempts at EQ.

I listened many times to the overheads, flipping phase back and forth. To me it sounded better with one of them flipped. Again, I have zero experience, just an observation.

The reverb issue was in reference to Greg's comment that my kick and snare were dry as a bone and my toms were roomy. I think at least it sounds like the same kit now?????

Also, the mud in my mixes cleared up when I removed the kick bleed from the other tracks. You guys don't routinely do that?
 
By the way, I checked each track with a phase meter and the snare is out of phase whether played normally or with the phase flipped 180 degrees. To me this means it's out of phase by something other than 180 degrees. Right? Is there some phase alignment tool plug in that allows you to change phase by something other than 180 degrees?
 
RAMI said:
Ah. OK...THAT'S what you're saying. OK, I didn't realize that the solo'd snare sounded that thin. There's a good chance I didn't even hear it solo'd. :cool:
Click to expand...
Haha, well that's why I was making the argument. The solo'd snare sounded thin, the snare in the overheads sounded fatter but still nothing like your snare, so I was arguing that yours doesn't sound "right", but it sounds better.
 
guitar zero said:
By the way, I checked each track with a phase meter and the snare is out of phase whether played normally or with the phase flipped 180 degrees. To me this means it's out of phase by something other than 180 degrees. Right? Is there some phase alignment tool plug in that allows you to change phase by something other than 180 degrees?
Click to expand...
Just drag it into phase if you really want it in phase. However, it might not be a huge issue.

That was my point btw, that even the flipped phase snare was out of phase!
 
Last edited:
A close mic'd snare is never gonna be "in-phase" with the overheads no matter how you flip it. A snare mic is inches from the source, and overheads are feet from the source. There's gonna naturally be a time delay which naturaly will create phase issues. In the past I've nudged the overhead tracks to line up with the snare track. The close mic snare track is more accurate because it's closer to the source, so I would move the overheads. Lately, I've just let it ride as-is. The two overheads should be pretty damn lined up with eachother. I take care in setting them up. The swish of the cymbals is still sort of a mystery to me, but I suspect it's a few things combined: big loud cymbals, small room, drums in a corner. My room is very treated, but it's still small, and the drums are in a corner. That's all I can do right now.

Is that what you guys are talking about?
 
Greg_L said:
A close mic'd snare is never gonna be "in-phase" with the overheads no matter how you flip it. A snare mic is inches from the source, and overheads are feet from the source.
Click to expand...
isn't that why they're supposed to be equidistant? to minimize it?
 
Very interesting topic of drum phasing. For me, I've had night-and-day better results in various recordings when I drag the kick / snare / toms so they're in-phase (as much as my eyes can tell) with the Overheads. I also make sure the overheads are in phase with each other right at the Kick / Snare line (the recorderman technique gives a fabulous explanation on how to very easily accomplish this).

Because a drum kit has sounds coming from all over the place, the overheads will never truly be in phase with each another all the time. If you tune the overheads to receive the signal from the snare at the exact same moment, then the OH will be in perfect phase only when the snare drum is hit. As soon as you hit one of your toms, your OHs will be out of phase for that drum. Same for any drum, but because the kit isn't all in the exact same space, it's impossible to tune the overheads to the entire kit.

The more I record drums, the more I believe that it's definitely more of an art, than a science.... Especially when you record other people's kits, and have very little time to do sound checks.

I can say that I've had extraordinary results mucking with phasing by dragging the various drum tracks to be as much in phase with the overheads as they can be.

Anyway.. There's my take on what I've learned in the past year.

Also - Greg - the washiness of your cymbals, in my experience, comes from the exact things you mention. Small room, big cymbals. I've found the bigger the cymbals I record, the more inherent washiness is recorded - unless I pull the mics back farther. The smaller the cymbals, the closer I can record them without having them be washy.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top