SHEPPARDB.
Well-known member
And BTW a soundmans job is not more difficult than the musicians.Truth of the matter is that both have pretty cushy jobs if they have thier shit together.
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
^^^^^ man, this a thousand times ^^^^^^^
If I can get all my sound from the stage without being too loud (it's possible) I prefer to not even be in the PA except for a little to 'spread' the sound. I don't really like the idea of the soundman having control over my sound. Too many of them suck for one thing .... and even if he's good ..... he might have a very different idea of what he's looking for ina guitar sound than I do. I have my own sound ...... I want it to sound like I want it, not someone elses' idea of what they think is a good guitar sound.
As for vloume ...... most pros have a good idea of how loud they need to be and how loud is too loud. I don't know any pros that go blasting away at top volume.
I'll have a soundman come up and tell me to turn down and I'll ask him, "Am I too loud?" Because I don't want to be too loud. And he'll say "no but I don't have you in the PA hardly at all". So then I'll ask, "Am I loud enough?" And he'll say yeah. So what's the problem?
If I'm loud enough but I'm not too loud then everything's fine.
That's limited to certain sized venues, of course, outside or big venues you gotta go PA but when possible I'd just as soon not be in the monitors anymore than neccessary even if it's a large venue where the PA has to provide most of the sound.
T
theD1CKENS
*insert clever title here
only time I wanna be in the monitors is when....
...ummm
I guess when the drummer is too loud?
...ummm
I guess when the drummer is too loud?
Bubba po
Tiny Stonehenge Moment
I agree with SheppardB about taking control from the soundman to a certain extent, but only if the musician is an experienced pro who knows what the hell he's doing. As Andy Summers once replied to the interviewer, on a documentary about his guitar rig and sound: "No, I can't turn the fucking thing down- what's the point in that, it would sound like a fucking mouse!" - or words to that effect. I'm sure "like a fucking mouse" was in there, anyway. He was using a half-stack, as I recall.
Lead guitarists do often suffer from the ego factor, but their girlfriends are even worse! I've rocked the sound desk a few times and I'm happy to let the band set their stage sound and go through a couple of numbers before I do any mic checks at all, but at this one gig the guitarist with his full stack was blowing the whole band away - the PA and venue was too small to cope with it - and the girlfriend was incessantly haranguing me to turn him up!
The soundman does have a difficult job on one-night shows, where he does at least one band (or several bands) that are variable in quality. But the worst thing he has to deal with is dicks and the unreasonable girlfriends of dicks. And people tapping him on the shoulder putting in their two penn'orth every five seconds. And people putting their beer precariously close to the desk.
He was using a half-stack, as I recall. Lead guitarists do often suffer from the ego factor, but their girlfriends are even worse! I've rocked the sound desk a few times and I'm happy to let the band set their stage sound and go through a couple of numbers before I do any mic checks at all, but at this one gig the guitarist with his full stack was blowing the whole band away - the PA and venue was too small to cope with it - and the girlfriend was incessantly haranguing me to turn him up!
The soundman does have a difficult job on one-night shows, where he does at least one band (or several bands) that are variable in quality. But the worst thing he has to deal with is dicks and the unreasonable girlfriends of dicks. And people tapping him on the shoulder putting in their two penn'orth every five seconds. And people putting their beer precariously close to the desk.
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fat_fleet
Swollen Member
yup. i would have to agree with SHEPPARDB. the soundmen i've dealt with absolutely HATE on bands and will walk away from the board with all kinds of wonky shit coming through the speakers. we went so far as to bring our own PA, mics, and stands so that we could set up independently and not have to deal with that crap at all. of course it was alot of work toting all that stuff around... and if you play original music, you're never making any money etc
S
stevieb
Just another guy, really.
I tried to respond with multi-quotes, but the system here would not show them as quotes, which made my post very hard to follow, even from the beginning- so I am going to try another day.
SHEPPARDB.
Well-known member
I have that same problem so I just gave up even trying.And god forbid you take to long to type something because this place will log you off.I do understand the points you made and I dont disagree with most of what you posted.
ZoSo58LP
rock guy
agreed with shep. besides, any of the soundmen i've dealt with are absolute dicks anyway; i've only met one who's actually cool and knows what he's doing. the rest have some bullshit aura that they're the shit, when in fact, they're 40 something and failed musicians who never made it big. they don't like the music they're hearing, so how could they possibly care about your tone/sound? they don't. they butcher that shit up and at the end of the show i always hear people in the crowd saying the mix sounded like garbage.
all in all, i hate soundmen, and nowadays i prefer playing un-miced lol
all in all, i hate soundmen, and nowadays i prefer playing un-miced lol
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
I've had this same debate a few times in the past on other forums. There was one guy who talked about how the soundman didn't even allow them to use amps, and they all pretty much DI'd in one form or another 
and the soundman made ALL the decisions, and how it was "OK" and sounded pretty good...etc...but I couldn't buy that shit.
You spend all your life playing a guitar with an amp up your ass...and that's how you hear the thing, that's how you set your tone and feel from the amp. I can see pumping some of that through a PA if needed, and I don't think for most clubs/bars guitars should be SCREAMING off the amp/stage, but you need to have a good stage volume.
You can't DI the drums (unless it's an electronic kit)....so to have most of your guitar/bass coming out of the PA, will IMO sound weird. I think you need to find a solid stage level/balance...and then bring the PA into the equation.
Huge auditoriums and arenas are a different animal altogether...and the PA plays a much bigger part, but a decent stage volume is still needed.
When I was still gigging, we had a dedicated soundman, our guy...so that's a lot easier to work with than when you have the house soundman who wants to control the whole thing for you.
and the soundman made ALL the decisions, and how it was "OK" and sounded pretty good...etc...but I couldn't buy that shit. You spend all your life playing a guitar with an amp up your ass...and that's how you hear the thing, that's how you set your tone and feel from the amp. I can see pumping some of that through a PA if needed, and I don't think for most clubs/bars guitars should be SCREAMING off the amp/stage, but you need to have a good stage volume.
You can't DI the drums (unless it's an electronic kit)....so to have most of your guitar/bass coming out of the PA, will IMO sound weird. I think you need to find a solid stage level/balance...and then bring the PA into the equation.
Huge auditoriums and arenas are a different animal altogether...and the PA plays a much bigger part, but a decent stage volume is still needed.
When I was still gigging, we had a dedicated soundman, our guy...so that's a lot easier to work with than when you have the house soundman who wants to control the whole thing for you.
M
moresound
Loud Sun Studios
I m not stepping into this conversation 
M
moresound
Loud Sun Studios
But Lt Bob has it about right. Just bring the rest of the band up to meet the loudest performer. FOH is just suppose to make the on stage artist louder and that's it (maybe a bit of verb on the drums and vocals)
So what if the guitar is loud if needed just turn up the solos.
So what if the guitar is loud if needed just turn up the solos.
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
well ..... let me point out that I specifically said I don't play TOO loud and I don't WANT to play too loud. Playing loud enough to not need the PA in a small to medium sized venue is NOT the same thing as playing LOUD.
Also ..... I personally have not run into soundmen 'hating' on the band. Most soundmen I've dealt with (and in 40 years that's a hell of a lot of them) are perfectly pleasant and try to be helpful.
It's just that a lot of them aren't very good.
And there are some that are good and you know what? ALL I have to do is tell them that I prefer to get my sound from the stage as much as possible and they go, "Ok cool, I'll let you know if you get too loud" ...... good ones understand my POV and have no problem with it.
Further ....... the really good ones I trust and don't tell them shit because they remember from the last time what my preferences are. I know who the good guys are anywhere I play very much.
I always look up and see them and go, "Man ..... GLAD to see you doing sound today!"
Bubba po
Tiny Stonehenge Moment
double post 
Bubba po
Tiny Stonehenge Moment
The P.A. is sound reinforcement, not sound replacement.
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
^^^^^ YAY! ^^^^^^^The P.A. is sound reinforcement, not sound replacement.
good point.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Controlling the stage imbalances (guitar playing way too loud or two soft) should be first dealt with on the stage.
To say that the reason a sound man should control everything is only a band-aid to the initial problem.
So get the stage levels set (put egos aside)...then let the sound man fine-tune the overall room mix, and really, the soundman play a part in setting the individual amp stage levels by telling each member if they are too loud/soft.
I mena...if you're having level anarchy on stage...even the soundman is not going to control that!
To say that the reason a sound man should control everything is only a band-aid to the initial problem.
So get the stage levels set (put egos aside)...then let the sound man fine-tune the overall room mix, and really, the soundman play a part in setting the individual amp stage levels by telling each member if they are too loud/soft.
I mena...if you're having level anarchy on stage...even the soundman is not going to control that!
fat_fleet
Swollen Member
i regret coming off so dismissive about soundguys, and realize my limited negative experiences were with a select few guys. and honestly, i've only ever played a couple times in venues large enough so that i couldn't get sufficient stage volume from my amp.
S
stevieb
Just another guy, really.
Okay, trying again... yeah, seems to be working now.
, though.
That middle statement confuses me, a bit. How can a sound man "kill your tone," when your tone comes from your rig? I agree, a smaller amp will give you that "sweet spot" tone at a lower volume, and if you can hear yourself well, YOU don't need any of "you" in the monitors. That's why there are multiple monitor channels.
) Oh, one more thing- if there is only one or two monitor channels, you pretty much have to live with too much "you" in the stage mix, so others can hear you. If that is the soundman's fault, it's because he did not or could not provide more monitor manuals- maybe he got lazy and said "f- 'em, they can get by with one channel," (yeah, I've said that! 
) or the venue or event didn't want to spend the money
...
I'm hearing you, bud. Not sure how I illustrated that soundmen are easily distracted
, though.Yeah, I can understand how that would piss you off! I can honestly say, I have never acted like that- even when I was green as grass at this and had some pretty bad-sounding gigs, I went the other way- I obsessed about how bad it sounded, and stayed right there, working my ass off and trying everything I could think of to correct the situation! The other soundmen I know- many who are more experienced than I- have never, to my knowledge, done that sort of unprofessional thing. Now, finally having enough of an out-sized ego (or two, or three) in a band, and sending him a "message" in the form of horrible sound, is a whole 'nuther animal, but usually the devos take the lesson after one or two songs, and behave themselves. Usually.
Yes, I am a sound man, but I really was not reacting defensively.are you a sound guy, stevieb? not tryin to be a d-bag, but you got pretty defensive. it's not our fault it's in the "guitarist handbook" to hate the sound guy.
but seriously, IME, the guy running sound NEVER tells me to turn UP. he'd rather be able to control my sound from the board rather than battle with my stage volume, and I completely understand...BUT...given the opportunity, he will(at least the local guys) he'll have my stage volume too low, and just crank the house and monitors. it DOES kill my tone. half of my sound is an amp pushed to right before heavy break-up.
a smaller amp means I can push it harder without having too much stage volume. I get my tone, sound guy gets control of the front of house, everybody wins.
That middle statement confuses me, a bit. How can a sound man "kill your tone," when your tone comes from your rig? I agree, a smaller amp will give you that "sweet spot" tone at a lower volume, and if you can hear yourself well, YOU don't need any of "you" in the monitors. That's why there are multiple monitor channels.
Overall- counting rehearsals, etc- you are probably right- I was talking primarily during the gig- a guitarist (any musician) "only" has to take care of his sound, and make sure he is blending well enough to not drive others (band mates and the soundman) nuts, while the soundman has to attend to the balance of EVERYONE- even the crowd. Even on stage- we have all heard a musician call for more of something in the monitors.And BTW a soundmans job is not more difficult than the musicians.Truth of the matter is that both have pretty cushy jobs if they have thier shit together.
There you go- please see my reply, just above. Really, the only part of your sound the sound man has control over is the volume- all the tone is rightfully yours. (unless he decides to EQ the hell out of you- see "message," aboveIf I can get all my sound from the stage without being too loud (it's possible) I prefer to not even be in the PA except for a little to 'spread' the sound. I don't really like the idea of the soundman having control over my sound.
As for volume ...... most pros have a good idea of how loud they need to be and how loud is too loud. I don't know any pros that go blasting away at top volume.
I'll have a soundman come up and tell me to turn down and I'll ask him, "Am I too loud?" Because I don't want to be too loud. And he'll say "no but I don't have you in the PA hardly at all". So then I'll ask, "Am I loud enough?" And he'll say yeah. So what's the problem?
If I'm loud enough but I'm not too loud then everything's fine.
That's limited to certain sized venues, of course, outside or big venues you gotta go PA but when possible I'd just as soon not be in the monitors anymore than neccessary even if it's a large venue where the PA has to provide most of the sound.
) Oh, one more thing- if there is only one or two monitor channels, you pretty much have to live with too much "you" in the stage mix, so others can hear you. If that is the soundman's fault, it's because he did not or could not provide more monitor manuals- maybe he got lazy and said "f- 'em, they can get by with one channel," (yeah, I've said that! ) or the venue or event didn't want to spend the money...Some good points there, too. I agree- all DI is gonna suck, most of the time (always an exception.) I LOVES me some band sound man! If I can get away with it, I show them the console, point out the board's and the system's idiosyncrasies, and take a much-needed break! But, I am always close by, if needed.I've had this same debate a few times in the past on other forums. There was one guy who talked about how the soundman didn't even allow them to use amps, and they all pretty much DI'd in one form or another
You spend all your life playing a guitar with an amp up your ass...and that's how you hear the thing, that's how you set your tone and feel from the amp. I can see pumping some of that through a PA if needed, and I don't think for most clubs/bars guitars should be SCREAMING off the amp/stage, but you need to have a good stage volume.
You can't DI the drums (unless it's an electronic kit)....so to have most of your guitar/bass coming out of the PA, will IMO sound weird. I think you need to find a solid stage level/balance...and then bring the PA into the equation.
Huge auditoriums and arenas are a different animal altogether...and the PA plays a much bigger part, but a decent stage volume is still needed.
When I was still gigging, we had a dedicated soundman, our guy...so that's a lot easier to work with than when you have the house soundman who wants to control the whole thing for you.
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Bubba po
Tiny Stonehenge Moment
Not really. Even with eq flat, the miked sound from your amp through the PA is NOTHING LIKE the original sound. How could it be? It takes a very good sound man to make a reinforced sound anything like as good as the original.
CoolCat
Well-known member
like recording the room makes a huge difference,
I went and saw a band about a year ago, the place was floor to ceiling glass. so as you watched the band you could see outside too, but it wasnt a "lake view" it was a view to the parking lot with a parking lot street around this bar.
anyway, the glass room was one of the worst I have ever heard and the shrills and treble was uncomfortable, even with beer.
and if that wasn't enough the police started driving around the "fish bowl" bar...so as you drank a beer, with thin trebly glass sounds, the police drove around the bar very very slowly making even the drunks uncomfortable.
needless to say I never went back, and the place closed down too.
my point was the room can ruin the tones of about anything.
I went and saw a band about a year ago, the place was floor to ceiling glass. so as you watched the band you could see outside too, but it wasnt a "lake view" it was a view to the parking lot with a parking lot street around this bar.
anyway, the glass room was one of the worst I have ever heard and the shrills and treble was uncomfortable, even with beer.
and if that wasn't enough the police started driving around the "fish bowl" bar...so as you drank a beer, with thin trebly glass sounds, the police drove around the bar very very slowly making even the drunks uncomfortable.
needless to say I never went back, and the place closed down too.
my point was the room can ruin the tones of about anything.