Down sized to 5w tube for gigs.

[Lt. Bob]

Not really. Even with eq flat, the miked sound from your amp through the PA is NOTHING LIKE the original sound. How could it be? It takes a very good sound man to make a reinforced sound anything like as good as the original.

man you beat me to it!

The soundman absolutely has major control over your tone. Even small EQ setting affect the sound of a git and, in fact as Bubba said, it's actually quite difficult to get the sound of a mic'd amp to sound the same thru the PA at all.

And if I'm playing a gig with only one or two monitors, then it's a small venue and the other guys can hear me just fine.

 

[Bubba po]

man you beat me to it!

Sorry, old chap. I suppose these things will happen when we seem to see eye to eye on a subject.

 

[suprstar]

LOL by the time I was done reading this thread, I forgot we were talking about 5w amps I like little amps, I have a VJ head that's my go-to amp in the studio. I run it thru one side of a stereo 4x12 with v30's, it sounds awesome! It's amazingly loud for 5w, I still dont really understand how that is... But for gigging, I have a 120w tube head and a 4x12. I've been burned by the SM a couple times - "Keep the stage volume real low, this place is small, easier for me to get good sound, yada yada yada...." He swears he'll have me juiced in the monitors, but it doesn't happen. One time I coulda accidentally pulled the cord out of my guitar, and I wouldnt even have known, cuz I could hear myself absolutely zero..

About the SM, I've come across more bad than good. Unless you play the same places over and over really really frequently, they dont know your songs, they dont know your set, how you transition between songs, they know NOTHING about what you do/want/like. Most SM I've dealt with did 10 different bands in the last week. There have only been a couple cases where I actually got to know a SM, even playing the same place it seems like there's always a buncha different guys behind the board from night to night. There was a high turnover in our usual places, I just always thought I was dealing with new inexperienced SM. I'm sorry to say I generally assume they don't know whats up until they prove otherwise. We once had a guy decide to experiment with all this crazy delay and fx and shit in the middle of our songs, we're like 'GAH dude wtf are you doing!?' in between songs.

Big bands have their own sound guys, of course that's the best. If your band hires the same sound co. for all their shows, and you can request the same guy, that works decent - I've been on both sides of that deal as the sound co and the band. If you just show up and use the house PA, and the 'sound guy' is just the one of the bartenders playing rock conert for the night, youre screwed!

 

[ZoSo58LP]

""Keep the stage volume real low, this place is small, easier for me to get good sound, yada yada yada...."

they ALWAYS say that shit to us, and then after the show people say "um, was the guitar even there? we couldn't hear anything."

so we stopped listening to them, and we just crank up in between songs and give them no time to try to get our attention lol

 

[ocnor]

The sound tech is your most important band member because he can make you sound like a god or like an ass. ALWAYS BRING YOUR OWN SOUND TECH TO THE GIG! If the venue won't let you use your own guy then don't play there. Problem solved.

 

[Lt. Bob]

The sound tech is your most important band member because he can make you sound like a god or like an ass. ALWAYS BRING YOUR OWN SOUND TECH TO THE GIG! If the venue won't let you use your own guy then don't play there. Problem solved.

as long as you don't need the money.
I sometimes have to play places where I know the soundman's shite ..... gotta play anyway. So I minimize the damge he can do by going in and telling him what I want. Hopefully he'll do some of it ....... and I let them know I'm gonna get most of my volume from the stage just like in the old days when you ran nothing but vox thru the PA's.
They don't like it but too bad ..... my gig ...... my decisions to the extent I can control them.
Hell .... sometimes the reason the band's too loud is a big PA with a soundman that likes to crank his big throbbing PA.

 

[CoolCat]

as long as you don't need the money.
I sometimes have to play places where I know the soundman's shite ..... gotta play anyway. So I minimize the damge he can do by going in and telling him what I want. Hopefully he'll do some of it ....... and I let them know I'm gonna get most of my volume from the stage just like in the old days when you ran nothing but vox thru the PA's.
They don't like it but too bad ..... my gig ...... my decisions to the extent I can control them.
Hell .... sometimes the reason the band's too loud is a big PA with a soundman that likes to crank his big throbbing PA.

LtBob you bring up a good debate point, for having the extra power on stage.
Should you need to be free of a sound man's poor skills, you can just do it from the stage, and a 5watt ain't gonna do that.

You mentioned you've also ran DI/pedals through the board at some gigs, so thats even lighter than a 5 watt small amp...

So if the goal is to not have equipment to carry around, really instead of downgrading to a 5watt, just go to a DI /Effect unit pedal into the board and not even worry about carrying an amp at all..

I dont even play live but find the thread interesting, because my own recent thoughts, a Clapton video he was playing through some little tiny amp with a mic on it, and I thought, I guess the tone was there, I mean he could afford any setup and chose that one?

 

[Lt. Bob]

So if the goal is to not have equipment to carry around, really instead of downgrading to a 5watt, just go to a DI /Effect unit pedal into the board and not even worry about carrying an amp at all..

actually that's a good point. If you're sound is basically gonna come from the PA anyway, then a good modeler gives you a hell of a lot more variety and control than a little 5 watt amp except for that one sound of cranking a small tube amp. Modelers can get close enough to that that if I go that small I'd just bring my Rocktron.

 

[stevieb]

I told myself I was not going to post in this thread again, but now, I gotta. Correct me if I am wrong (I am getting sleepy, and Bob knows how I can mis-read when sleepy) but if you are going from your guitar to an effects unit to the board, you are giving the sound man almost complete control over your "sound." Using a small amp- 5 watts or so- is very close to the same thing. sorry, guys, but you can't have it both ways- either you make all the noise on stage yourself with your own rig, OR you send a line-level signal to the board, and the sound man sends it back to you in the monitors.

Or did I miss something?

 

[Lt. Bob]

I told myself I was not going to post in this thread again, but now, I gotta. Correct me if I am wrong (I am getting sleepy, and Bob knows how I can mis-read when sleepy) but if you are going from your guitar to an effects unit to the board, you are giving the sound man almost complete control over your "sound." Using a small amp- 5 watts or so- is very close to the same thing. sorry, guys, but you can't have it both ways- either you make all the noise on stage yourself with your own rig, OR you send a line-level signal to the board, and the sound man sends it back to you in the monitors.

Or did I miss something?

what I said was that IF I were going that small I'd use a modeler.

But any gig where I'm trying to keep my gear that small is a gig where I'm the PA guy. I basically trust myself to get the sound I want. In a case like that my PA basically is my amp and I set the channels' EQ where I want it.

But I'd NEVER use a modeler on any gig that mattered to me.

 

[stevieb]

Okay, that washes.

 

[Drone_21042]

what I said was that IF I were going that small I'd use a modeler.

But any gig where I'm trying to keep my gear that small is a gig where I'm the PA guy. I basically trust myself to get the sound I want. In a case like that my PA basically is my amp and I set the channels' EQ where I want it.

But I'd NEVER use a modeler on any gig that mattered to me.

Agree completely- especially with that last part. Without getting into a pissing contest with guys who use modelers, they simply don't do it for me. Don't get me wrong, I have friends who bring only a line6 pod to a gig and they get surprisingly good results from it (probably because it eliminates *some* of the variable when mic'ing a guitar amp), but you're still at the mercy of the sound guy. More importantly (to me) is that they don't sound as good or have that idiosyncratic bio-feedback (for lack of a better word) as a real amp. A modeler's ability to dial in a lot of sounds in a small package is a very powerful tool, but the sound is somehow very different running through the boards and played at higher volumes. Now, fooling around in a home recording situation- I think they sound pretty darned good. Personally, I need a real amp for a live gig....maybe I'm just getting old.

Drone.

 

[Lt. Bob]

Agree completely- especially with that last part. Without getting into a pissing contest with guys who use modelers, they simply don't do it for me. Don't get me wrong, I have friends who bring only a line6 pod to a gig and they get surprisingly good results from it (probably because it eliminates *some* of the variable when mic'ing a guitar amp), but you're still at the mercy of the sound guy. More importantly (to me) is that they don't sound as good or have that idiosyncratic bio-feedback (for lack of a better word) as a real amp. A modeler's ability to dial in a lot of sounds in a small package is a very powerful tool, but the sound is somehow very different running through the boards and played at higher volumes. Now, fooling around in a home recording situation- I think they sound pretty darned good. Personally, I need a real amp for a live gig....maybe I'm just getting old.

Drone.

well you probably are getting old.

But I agree ...... modelers just don't quite get it for me.
I actually do have certain gigs where I use a modeler ..... during the summer I do a buncha gigs at resorts, either in their lounges or out on the pool deck.
They're singles and it's just beach music that has to go throughout a large area thru a buncha speakers placed here and there.
With a modeler, if I hear that the volumes are balanced in a speaker near me .... I know it's gonna be balanced in the next room.

It's just way easier to use a modeler there IF you can find one that sounds and reacts somewhat like a real amp.

I actually have found one ....... Rocktron Utopia.
Rocktron has always had good sounds and this continues that tradition.
It's also easy in that it eschews having 18zillion amp models and simply has 4 channels and a handful of most needed FX's.
It sounds surpisingly real but way more important is that it 'feels' and responds to your picking a lot like a real tube amp. Not quite, but close enough that I can stand to play thru it.

The switching is a bit wonky and the supposedly bright display might as well not even be there in bright light. You can't see it at ALL!

But out of all my modelers ( I have a bunch), it's by far the best sounding and feeling one.

That Fractal thing is probably the shit but it costs too much for me since I prefer amps anyway. You have to only use it for it to be worth spending that much money.

But for any gig that matters I'm gonna haul one of my nice amps out. Mainly my Mark V right now but I have others.

 

[Drone_21042]

well you probably are getting old.

But I agree ...... modelers just don't quite get it for me.
I actually have found one ....... Rocktron Utopia.
It sounds surpisingly real but way more important is that it 'feels' and responds to your picking a lot like a real tube amp. Not quite, but close enough that I can stand to play thru it. But out of all my modelers ( I have a bunch), it's by far the best sounding and feeling one.
But for any gig that matters I'm gonna haul one of my nice amps out. Mainly my Mark V right now but I have others.

You've encouraged me to check out the Rocktron. I love the idea of modelers, but was never quite seduced by one for the reasons I said above. The way you have described this unit- sounds like something I would appreciate.

 

[Lt. Bob]

You've encouraged me to check out the Rocktron. I love the idea of modelers, but was never quite seduced by one for the reasons I said above. The way you have described this unit- sounds like something I would appreciate.

It's pretty cool.
I have a Line 6 and several Digitechs and the Rocktron smokes 'em.

It's set up more like a multi-channel amp
Instead of amp models per se, they have 4 channels. They're ummmm .... I haven't programmed it in a while ... ...... Clean, Texas ( I suppose a tweed type sound), British and Mega (for high gain) ..... that's it. Makes it pretty easy ...... clean is clean ..... I use Texas for crunch rhythm sounds ..... and British for my long-sustainy type lead sounds. Mega is a bit too hi-gain for anything I do.

Then it has Chorus - Flanger- 'Verb - Delay - Variac --- and some good speaker emulations.
I think it has a couple more FXs than that but I don't really get into it that deeply so I don't remember.
It's for what I said it was for ..... certain gigs where there's just no point in hauling an amp out there and emergencies.

But it really does sound pretty damned good direct. Other guitarists will usually comment on it sounding 'warm'.
And it responds to picking attack better than most modelers I've used though it's not quite up to amp standards. But good enough that I don't spend all night hating on it ya know?
I've dialed in 4 or 5 presets for my Strat and another 4 or 5 for my 'bucker guitars and even another few presets dialed in for using it as a multiFX into an amp although I never use it that way. I even have one set up for bass guitar since I'm a bass player too.
It stays in my truck always .... so in the event I have an emergency, whether an amp breaking down or a sudden gig when I don't have my stuff with me, I always have something I can get satisfactory results out of.

A couple caveats .....the cheapest one, the G100, which I have (it was the first and I bought it when they first came out) doesn't have a tuner and no recall button. So you have to have a separate tuner and you can't just toggle back and forth between two sounds with a single button. You have to select the other sound and then recall it every damned time. All the other models correct this.
I've gotten used to it but if I were buying another one I'd definitely get the G200.

And the display is hard to see if it's bright. Outside it's just freakin' invisible. I have to bend over and get upi close to read it. Inside gigs, it's fine.

IMO, for anyone that hates modelers but feels there are times when you have to use one and don't want to be bummed out by it, the Rocktron's the one to go for.

 

[Prunepicker]

I use a Walter Woods M-100. Love it. 100 watts and 7lbs. I
use an EV sx100 for the speaker, 12" with a horn and 30lbs.
The double bass sounds very good as does the Fender P. Each
channel of the Woods processes the type of instrument. Channel
1 is for fretted bass and 2 is for fretless and acoustic.

 

[stevieb]

"Bio Feedback." I love it. You may have coined just the right term...

 

[soundchaser59]

I made the mistake of letting the sound man put my guitar in the monitors.......made that mistake once, and only once. Never again!

They complained about stage volume. I pointed out that the stage volume is determined by the loudest instrument on stage, the drums, and you cant turn them down. So I use a closed back 2x12 speaker facing me (not facing the crowd) and I plugged my monitor into the vocal channel. I have no idea why this particular group of sound guys thinks the guitar player doesn't need to hear any vocals. The keyboard player is the one in our group who wont turn down and drowns out everything else, and they were piping keys into my monitor. I plugged my monitor into the voc channel when nobody was looking adn suddenly the entire stage sound was perfect for me. But everybody else kept telling the sound guy they cant hear the guitar. So he put the guitar in their monitors. They all said it sounds weird, but then they would come over to the guitar amp and ask me to play, and they were shocked that the amp sounded so much better than the guitar in the monitor. Imagine that.... I even brought my own E906 mic once, and the sound guy said, "Did you change something? Change it back!" He couldn't deal with it.

 

[miroslav]

... and the sound guy said, "Did you change something? Change it back!" He couldn't deal with it.

You should mess with him every chance you get. When he steps away, just turn a couple of knobs.

If he can't find it, he's not much of a soundman.

 

[Prunepicker]

Sound guys have their idea of what things should sound like and
it's mostly due to what they listen to for personal enjoyment. I
try to be as nice as I can even if I don't like it. Some techs know
the specs and tech talk but they don't understand sound.

I like the natural sound of a P Bass and an amp and speaker
combination that's uncolored. That's why I bought it. Thankfully
90% of what I do isn't about me, or "my sound" so I just deal
with it. I will say I despise being forced into the subs.
Head room is fine, but I can't stand the sound of sub bass.
The same goes for the kick.

Getting the double bass to sound good is a whole new world for
most. Normally they put the SM 57 mic as close to the floor as
they can. Talk about muddy. I'll politely ask them to come up
and listen to the bass without the mic. This is what it sounds
like! I'll try to get them to use a wide diaphragm mic just above
the G string F hole and about two feet away to avoid the bow
and because I'm not going to stand perfectly still.

I love these soap boxes.