Do you really buy that expensive recording software?

[demensia]

When I didn't have money, I pirated everything, but now that I do, I've stopped using the pirated versions and purchased actual licenses. The stuff I don't have the money for.. like the waves bundle... I've just stopped using. I figure, if i don't have the money, I have no business using them. I can learn to mix just as well with software that I can afford. Maybe someday, when I get better, and when I get wealthier, I'll be able to buy that stuff. Right now.. I'm good with buying licenses for the software I'm going to use and not using the software that I'm not.

The exception is microsoft.
I've given them enough money over the years.
I'm about to start feeling the same way about apples music store.
I'm trying to do the right thing, not steal music, and legitimally purchase what I listen to, and I've done that for at least a full year... And now I'm running into issues trying to listen to my purchased music on linux.. since I wipe my windows box alot and reinstall stuff, I'm starting to get warnings about authorizing my computer too many times... and its rediculous.. But thats a different rant.

Yeah. I used to pirate software. I'm glad I did, I learned alot.
Now I can afford it, so I buy it and support the developers.

 

[billy3000]

Bite Your Tongue!!

Get a job

A JOB? isn't that going a little over the top?

actually, I'm kidding and I'm not kidding. we're all musicians here, right? sensitive artistic type people?

I am aware of the need for a stinking job, and am between jobs at the moment.
But having a job can be very depressing and stressful. I don't think that's very healthy.

there must be another way. where there's a will, there's a way!

 

[dkerwood]

Do we as the consumer have the right to resell software after we get tired of it or upgrade?

Can we load the software onto multiple computers in our home?

Can we sell the software to someone else without uninstalling it from our own computer(s)?

Can we copy it for our own backup protection?

Can we sell the original and keep the backup?

I bought all of my computers second hand. I'm pretty sure that the Windows program for one of them was a school site license version. Does that mean that I'm in violation of the law in running it for personal use? Probably. But I'm not going to go out and buy obsolete Win2K just to reinstall it on a computer that already has it. I bought the computer fair and square, as well as all the software on it, if the old owner had the right to sell it to me.

I also xerox information out of books and download songs for reference. No sense in buying an entire book if all I need is a chart for a report (and it gets thrown away) or buying an entire CD if all I need is a reference track for a piece I'm conducting (and then is deleted).

What I do know is that the last new computer that was purchased in my house came with ZERO hard copy software. It was all preinstalled. This is becoming the norm. Thus, if your hard drive crashes, you pick up a virus, or even if you just want to clean out your hard drive, you're out of luck. You might get a system recovery disk, but you sure as heck don't get all the fancy software that came preloaded. I lost a copy of Photoshop that way - it was preloaded, and then I had to format the drive, and had no way to get it back. Now I'm stuck using a 1998 version of Photo Deluxe, because that's the most recent photo editing software that I had a CD for.

So tell me this - if I were to download Photoshop from Limewire (sp?) or something, would I be stealing? I mean, I already bought the thing and paid for the right to use it. It's registered under my name (I think)...

Similar question - what about when the CD breaks or gets scratched? I've paid for the right to use the software, but the carrier for the information has become damaged. Am I in the wrong to download another version of the same thing? I made a backup of my recording software just in case the original gets scratched, and what do you know? My brother sat down at my computer, pulled my original CD out of the drive, put in one of his games, and then proceded to spill Mountain Dew all over my original disk. In trying to clean it up, he managed to further destroy it. Not a HUGE deal, because I've got the backup, but now I don't have the (working) original. Am I in violation of the law?

 

[ermghoti]

Do we as the consumer have the right to resell software after we get tired of it or upgrade?

Yes.

Can we load the software onto multiple computers in our home?

Depends on the license. Usually, yes. Often with limits.

Can we sell the software to someone else without uninstalling it from our own computer(s)?

No.

Can we copy it for our own backup protection?

Yes, IIRC.

Can we sell the original and keep the backup?

No.

I bought all of my computers second hand. I'm pretty sure that the Windows program for one of them was a school site license version. Does that mean that I'm in violation of the law in running it for personal use? Probably. But I'm not going to go out and buy obsolete Win2K just to reinstall it on a computer that already has it. I bought the computer fair and square, as well as all the software on it, if the old owner had the right to sell it to me.

If the lisence has been transferred, you are fine. If you don't have the disc, chances are the lisence was not transferred.

I also xerox information out of books and download songs for reference. No sense in buying an entire book if all I need is a chart for a report (and it gets thrown away) or buying an entire CD if all I need is a reference track for a piece I'm conducting (and then is deleted).

You can generally photocopy portions of books for "scholarship," ie. studying or reviewing the work. There is no such loophole for recorded music.

What I do know is that the last new computer that was purchased in my house came with ZERO hard copy software. It was all preinstalled. This is becoming the norm. Thus, if your hard drive crashes, you pick up a virus, or even if you just want to clean out your hard drive, you're out of luck. You might get a system recovery disk, but you sure as heck don't get all the fancy software that came preloaded. I lost a copy of Photoshop that way - it was preloaded, and then I had to format the drive, and had no way to get it back. Now I'm stuck using a 1998 version of Photo Deluxe, because that's the most recent photo editing software that I had a CD for.

You're probably getting screwed, and the seller is not paying the software vendor for the software. If the seller is some sort of legit company, you should demand an explanation.

So tell me this - if I were to download Photoshop from Limewire (sp?) or something, would I be stealing? I mean, I already bought the thing and paid for the right to use it. It's registered under my name (I think)...

See above. Unfortunately, I doubt you have actually paid for the program. The registration process does not guarantee your copy is legit.

Similar question - what about when the CD breaks or gets scratched? I've paid for the right to use the software, but the carrier for the information has become damaged. Am I in the wrong to download another version of the same thing? I made a backup of my recording software just in case the original gets scratched, and what do you know? My brother sat down at my computer, pulled my original CD out of the drive, put in one of his games, and then proceded to spill Mountain Dew all over my original disk. In trying to clean it up, he managed to further destroy it. Not a HUGE deal, because I've got the backup, but now I don't have the (working) original. Am I in violation of the law?

You can send the damaged disc to the publisher, they will replace it. The disc itself is a physical lisence for the software.

 

[choctaw]

Right let the Company offer support....if they will?

You can never really trust that any problems in your DAW setup aren't caused by a bad version or crack. It's not about supporting the company but paying for the company to support you.

TexRoadKill......I agree, its wonderful to get help from a company. I just find it difficult to find one who seems to give a crap. I use Cubase SX and would be hard pressed to find any help from them. Never answer my e-mail. Tascam treats me about the same. So I look to these forums for my advise and mostly it helps...........

Choctaw

 

[itct]

wow....4 years.... quite the old thread, eh?

I have a PT 002 rack that cost me around a grand, but I have about $5k in 'illegal' plugins. I use them to learn. I record artists at the school I go to (and will end up paying around $30k when it's all said and done), then mix @ home on my pro tools LE system. I NEED to have these plugins, or I would be at the school all the f**king time!!!. It is against school policy (any my morals, AND the 'warez' code of: "dont use warezed software to make money") to charge performers for studio time. If I didn't run Waves Diamond, I might as well not have a PT system at home; so there goes $1,000+ from digi's pocket. I DO buy some plugins, from companies that will offer student discounts (i.e. Drumagog plugin where you can get the pro version for the price of the regular version). However, I wouldn't ever buy the shit from Wave's, esp. when it runs in the $$$$'s of dollars. Who can? You need to be trained just to use half their plugins, and who is going to spend all that money as a 'stab in the dark' ???

IMHO....

If you are planning to make money recording, or you find yourself doing so, make sure that you only use stuff you paid for (99% of the time, at least....and seriously, 99% of the time, not something like 'oh, just this once', then you say that to yourself ever week that you do it...), otherwise just buy what you need. Cubase, Nuendo, Cakewalk, etc. are fine multitrack recorders. If you are trying to get into 'the industry', you need to know Pro Tools. Buy an mbox or 002/002r (rack) [or, get the m-audio stuff - it's cheap and you can learn PT using it].

There you go: my half-drunk ramblings. Hope it helped you.....uh....wait....what were did you want???

-itct

 

[DaveO]

I can't help but laugh at the "if you're going to make money" argument.

I'm long past the days when I made anything (money or even just free beer) for playing. So that means I can pirate all the software I want and it's OK. Shit, I guess I can just walk into any music store and just help myself to all the guitars, amps, rack equipment, cables, and pedals I want. It's not like I'm making any money from playing.

Hmmmmm, I'm going to be stealing a lot of stuff and my car won't be able to carry it all. Why should I waste my time making multiple trips to rip off Sam Ash, especially when the store manager is going to keep hassling me like that everytime I walk out with another boat load of stuff. I should probably steal myself a big ol' Escalade to carry all that gear back to my house.

Speaking of house, my basement is just NOT big enough to hold all that gear once it's set up. There a nice house down the road that should be able to handle it all plus have extra room for the next several trips to raid Sam Ash. I guess before I get that Escalade the first thing I'll need to do is forcibly kick out that nice family who lives there. I mean, they could have my house since I won't be living there anymore. I'll just have to lock them up for a week or so while I'm moving in and then they can have my house forever. It's not like I'm leaving them out on the streets or anything.

And the best part is that because I'm not making any money from my music it's perfectly OK to do all that! What a great country this is! God bless America! Yayyyyyy!!!!!!



Please ....

 

[choctaw]

Sometimes it's just a bunch of words with NO substance.

I can't help but laugh at the "if you're going to make money" argument.

You got it right there DaveO...........he said it all when he wrote it was the ramblings of a half drunk person, still awake, but the brain was snoozing when it came to any rational thought.

Choctaw

 

[ablethevoice]

Hi everyone. I've been reading this thread for a while now, and I thought I'd toss my post into the fray.

When I bought my first actual computer (as opposed to those overblown calculators like the TI9940 or the Commodore 64), I was totally illiterate in Windows, PC lingo and the rest... hell I didn't even know how to cut and paste! Anyway, I bought an already ancient P1 200 mhz with a whopping 64 MB of RAM from a co-worker. When he delivered the unit to me, I found he included a burned copy of CEP v1.0- along with some other (legal copies) of software and the WIN98SE disk.

The CEP was what I was most interested in. What little I knew about software in general did include some small knowledge about CEP... I'd seen it work before and I liked what I saw.
Well, the old P1 finally crapped out after several years of hard work I forced on it, so I had a new system built (Athelon XP 1.9 ghz, with 1 GB RAM, 160 GB HD, WINXP OS, above average soundcard-an Audigy SB400). When I tried to install CEP, I only had to use the compatibility function to fool the program that I was still running WIN98SE.

I'm still using CEPv1.0 and I don't see any reason to use anything else. I can do everything I want/need to do with it. The only problems I've ever had with it was with my old P1 system when I got really ambitious in a recording project trying to manage 9 tracks and crashed not only CEP, but Windows as well! Fortunately, all I needed to do was a restart and CEP recovered all the tracks and I continued with my project.

I guess the point I'm making here is that I don't feel guilty using a copy of a legally acquired software package-especially one as old as CEP1.0. The folks at Syntrillium made plenty of $ on that one... and now Adobe is raking in plenty more $ on Audition and any versions of CEP above 1.0. Frankly, I've looked into the higher versions of CEP as well as Audition and don't see anything in features that I feel I can't live without that I don't already have in CEP1.0.

I may be stuck in the 90's on this one... well... so be it.

 

[DaveO]

Oh, I understand now. The fact that the last four cars my wife and I bought were Honda products means that I shouldn't have paid for the last few since Honda already got enough money from me. So from now on when they come out with a new model that has cool features that ours don't have it's perfectly alright for me to walk into a showroom, grab a set of keys for the model of my choice, and drive away with my new car? And I can do that whether I need the new model or not, right? The fact that it exists means that I'm entitled to it and it's simply mine for the taking?

I guarantee that those who are saying things like "I'm not making any money from music" or "Company X already got enough money from me" have NEVER done any financial or resource management for their company, let alone started a company and went through the pain of trying to develop their great product idea for a price the public might pay. Not ONE of you. If so, you couldn't possibly believe such nonsense.

 

[sean_mur88]

hmmmm....

Cool. Tell me where you live. I want to come over, beat the living crap out of you, rape your wife, kill your kids, steal all of your possessions, and then burn down your house.

Of COURSE we have to live by rules! We may not agree with the rules (I sure don't) but that is why we have the legislative process. Not the best process in the world, perhaps, but I personally know of nothing better.

If I have no problem with people stealing things than how can I be upset when they steal my things? Anybody who wants to break the law is 110% entitled to do so. They are NOT, however, entitled to bitch about the consequences.

Hack away.

I hate these kinds of arguments, if you want to rape and kill people, you have that choice, and you will have to deal with the consequences. if the only thing that is keeping you from raping, killing, stealing and burning down peoples' houses is the fact that there is a law against it, then there is something seriously wrong with you. and if the fact that someone thinks it's okay to steal makes you want to go do the things that you say you want to do, then you are just messed.

i also live by my own rules, taking the law into consideration but not as an absolute. i'm sure most christains don't live word for word by the bible, but that doesn't mean that they are all going to hell.

I'm sure that there are lots of people who smoke weed on this site, why don't you burn down all their houses too, damn law breakers! despite what you deem to be the absolute truth, lots of people rely on personal beliefs as guidence in their life, not just what is written in the law. personally, i drank underage, enjoy smoking weed, among other various things that i'm sure are technically illegal. if that makes you want to burn down my house and rape people based on the fact that it implies i don't believe in living by rules, however, then you are one messed up individual. just my two cents.

 

[sean_mur88]

yeah...about that...

Oh, I understand now. The fact that the last four cars my wife and I bought were Honda products means that I shouldn't have paid for the last few since Honda already got enough money from me. So from now on when they come out with a new model that has cool features that ours don't have it's perfectly alright for me to walk into a showroom, grab a set of keys for the model of my choice, and drive away with my new car? And I can do that whether I need the new model or not, right? The fact that it exists means that I'm entitled to it and it's simply mine for the taking?

First of all ... nobody's walking into a showroom and driving away with a new car ... it would be more like taking honda's car, reverse engineering it, and coming out with a blueprint. then if somebody wants to make a honda themselves, they can. that's a little more valid, honda put all the work in to develop the product, but isn't losing $15000 every time someone copies their car. as for the car itself ... and he's not talking about the newest model either, he's talking about an old cluncker with lots of miles on it that's bound for the scrapyard. i don't mind people having an opinion either way, i just don't like the way some people come up with analogies that are totally out of whack. (but if you want to go and try to steal a car out of a showroom, be my guest ... if you get caught, just try giving your argument that lots of other people are stealing, i'm sure they'll understand where you're coming from)

I guarantee that those who are saying things like "I'm not making any money from music" or "Company X already got enough money from me" have NEVER done any financial or resource management for their company, let alone started a company and went through the pain of trying to develop their great product idea for a price the public might pay.

This is probbably pretty accurate, i didn't realize that in order to have an opinion on this forum that matters, we had to have our own business or be in financial management. my bad.

fact is, this is a home recording forum and there are a lot of preople that just do this as a hobby and have a regular day job. i don't think that a person's occupation should have any influence on the value of their opinions. maybe you should look for a "home business / financial or resource management" forum to post in, but then again, you'd probbably just carve out another little niche to put your opinion above everybody else's when you don't agree with people's opinions.

 

[lexridge]

Stealing software is still stealing, however, the difference is, no physical product is actually stolen. It's a copy that's being stolen. Bits and bytes. Sure, the companies have lots of R&D developing them, and should be paid for it.

But, on the other hand, I for one believe all software should be free, ala GPL'ed, and the companies make their money through a support mechanism. This is a proven model, and does indeed work. Look how much M$ charges for phone support. $50 per minute!! Two minutes of that, and one could've simply bought a whole new copy of Windows.

RedHat exists solely on a support model, and their stock has risen from $5.00 to over $25 in just over one year. Some companies, such as DigiDesign, charge both, the original software purchase, then for support. Avid is the same way. You NEVER stop paying once you buy one of these systems.

Some people here think they are so wonderful because they "never" have used pirated software. THAT's BULLSHIT. I don't know one single person who has NOT ever used a piece of pirated software ever. I see it all the time, even in businesses!!! I have wasted time calling the BSA on at least three occassions to report businesses using pirated software. Guess what.....they didn't even bother to check it out. I have also heard this from several other people who have reported illegal activities, to no avail.

If the BSA doesn't give a shit.....why should you, or I?

 

[acidrock]

I'm a hobbyist.

I've never made a cent recording and I probably never will.

Last time I checked I've got about $1500 worth of software.

The "If you don't make money off it..."argument falls apart when you consider how many people are hobbyists.

Look at all the music stores,forums and what not.The amount of people actually making money off of music is just a small percentage of the people buying musical mechandise.Why should professionals pay to subsidise hobbyists and eh hem,"students".

I don't know one single person who has NOT ever used a piece of pirated software ever.

Now you know one person who never stole software.


There are demo versions out there for most programs so there is no reason to steal software.

 

[lexridge]

Now you know one person who never stole software.

I believe that like I believe Pigs can fly! You've never installed Windows 95 or 98 on someones computer for them, they didn't own? You've never ran the demo of WinZip for more than 30 days? You've never reset your clock to run that great software "one more time?" Gimme my boots, cause the shit's gettin' deep around here!

 

[acidrock]

I believe that like I believe Pigs can fly! You've never installed Windows 95 or 98 on someones computer for them, they didn't own? You've never ran the demo of WinZip for more than 30 days? You've never reset your clock to run that great software "one more time?" Gimme my boots, cause the shit's gettin' deep around here!

No I never have,no reason too.
You just assume everyone else thinks just like you.

 

[OhSh1rt]

As a 14 year old, "student", software like pro-tools is just out of my reach, digidesign is doing just fine without my money while if I gave them my money it would be, well, more than all of it, to them? Nothing.

I don't feel bad for the companies who make the software, they do just fine.

Compairing stealing software to stealing money is re-(censored)-dicilous, if I couldn't "obtain a trial" of this software then I just straight up wouldn't be recording, I'm not going to work my ass of at McDonalds to buy a single CD with a small little number that some how makes the software legal.


As for compairing stealing software to cars, with software, are you paying for raw materials? Are you paying for laibhor? No, it's already been made, no one spent their blood sweat and tears on the INDIVIDUAL copy, sure at one point there was a team, they got paid. A few illegal copies will not starve kids in china, it will not deplete our natrual resorces, oh and, by your car choice, you odviously don't care for the economy anyways. (@DaveO).



-jeffrey

 

[lexridge]

No I never have,no reason too.
You just assume everyone else thinks just like you.

Man, you are blowing so much smoke up my ass it's turning brown. If you even use someone elses licensed copy of software, you are technically a non-licensed user, therefore, an illegal user. Look at the poll that started this thread. Sixty percent have used it, and the other forty are lying. I'll bet you've never masterbated either. Well, maybe not, since I have never masterbated myself!

 

[DaveO]

As a 14 year old, "student", software like pro-tools is just out of my reach, digidesign is doing just fine without my money while if I gave them my money it would be, well, more than all of it, to them? Nothing.

I don't feel bad for the companies who make the software, they do just fine.

Compairing stealing software to stealing money is re-(censored)-dicilous, if I couldn't "obtain a trial" of this software then I just straight up wouldn't be recording, I'm not going to work my ass of at McDonalds to buy a single CD with a small little number that some how makes the software legal.


As for compairing stealing software to cars, with software, are you paying for raw materials? Are you paying for laibhor? No, it's already been made, no one spent their blood sweat and tears on the INDIVIDUAL copy, sure at one point there was a team, they got paid. A few illegal copies will not starve kids in china, it will not deplete our natrual resorces, oh and, by your car choice, you odviously don't care for the economy anyways. (@DaveO).



-jeffrey

You clearly have no concept of what software is, how it's produced, how it's priced, and how a company that produces it survives. I'll cut you some slack since you're only 14. But in case you're wondering what qualifies me to make the statements (not opinions) I made, it's because I've been in the software business almost double the amount of time you've been alive. I believe I'm far more qualified than to speak on the topic than almost everyone who keeps offering the same weak, illogical arguemnts attempting to justify why they pirate software.

Here's a little summary of where you're offbase. The cost of software has NOTHING to do with the CD it's copied onto. You're paying for the manufacture's overhead to produce it (rent, heating the building, computers for the developers, janitor service to clean the building, etc., etc., etc.). But you're mostly paying for the brain power of the people that manufacturer pays to write the software. In fact, you're not even paying for the software itself. You're paying for the RIGHT TO USE IT.

No lawyer would ever let you sit in on discussions with a client, even if you were "never going to use him anyway". He'd kick me out of there real fast. I have no interest in ever getting a medical degree and would certainly never pay for one. But can I just walk into a medical school and sit in on the classes? They'd kick me out real fast too. Same with a doctor, a financial planner, or any other person/business who makes their living from knowledge and experience. I'm not paying a doctor for the piece of paper that has my prescription on it, I didn't pay the college I went to for the pieces of paper my diplomas are printed on, I didn't pay the lawyer who processed my will for the paper it was printed on. I paid those people for the knowledge and experience I got from them and the value it wil lgive me. If you don't think that's valuable and worth money, think about that the next time a loved one is facing a long, slow painful death from disease or a damaged organ. You'll suddenly realize how valuable a knowledgeable doctor/surgeon/specialist actually is and you and your family will be very willing to pay for the RIGHT TO USE their knowledge and skill.

And before anyone goes off on profits and "ripping off the little guy", remember why any business exists - to make money. Do any of you do a job and not DEMAND to be paid for it? Extremely doubtful. But for anyone who tries using that argument, let's see some numbers to back up those claims. Can you show how any publically traded software company is making money hand over fist? I'd love to see some numbers, but so far no one has ever offered any evidence to support the argument. I wonder why not, hmmmmmmm .....

And Sean, please point out where I said the only people who should be allowed to use software are those with business experience. I said that anyone who makes claims about a company making enough money already has no idea what they're talking about. And that's not opinion - that's fact. Note that I did NOT say they're stupid, that they're an ignorant asshole, or anything else like that. I said that they don't understand the words they're saying. Then I explained why they don't know what they're saying by pointing out some simple facts about running a business. In other words, I stated facts, not my opinion.

I'm still waiting for anyone who's argued against me to offer anything that closely resembles a fact they can back up. Let's see 'em!

 

[acidrock]

Man, you are blowing so much smoke up my ass it's turning brown. If you even use someone elses licensed copy of software, you are technically a non-licensed user, therefore, an illegal user. Look at the poll that started this thread. Sixty percent have used it, and the other forty are lying. I'll bet you've never masterbated either. Well, maybe not, since I have never masterbated myself!

"I steal,therefore everyone else must steal."