Do you really buy that expensive recording software?

[lpdeluxe]

I can't believe people still think there's something to debate...

My opinions are public, widely known, and not secret. Nor am I anything but a mainstream user of software, which I gladly pay for. Value paid, value received. It baffles me that anyone would ever condone, let alone advocate, theft.

Thank you, DaveO, for a succinct, lucid, and rock-solid explanation of why we all "really buy that expensive recording software."

Because if we don't, it won't be there any more. DUH!

 

[DaveO]

I'll bet you've never masterbated either. Well, maybe not, since I have never masterbated myself!

WOW!!!! I just masturbated while I downloaded cracked copies of software I'll use but not make any money from. What a sensory overload that was!!!!!! I just found me a new favorite hobby!!!!!!! You guys HAVE to try doing both at the same time!!!!!! WOW!!!!!!!

 

[someotherdude]

Download!

I don't steal myself, but I've heard there are people who've downloaded perfectly working versions of Sonar and never had any problems with it. Perfectly stable. No problems. No viruses. Great program. I've heard that these people just need to know where to look and be careful about what they're downloading. And I've heard they have no feelings of guilt, whatsoever.

Oh, how horrible a crime. So some rich guy doesn't make quite as much money as he might've otherwise made. Poor rich guy. I feel so bad for him. And maybe some other rich guy has to pay a fraction of a penny more when buying software to cover the cost of theft. Poor, poor rich guy. Cry me a freaking river rich guys. Poor people will continue to pirate software because poor people don't give a rats ass about the financial woes or rich people. So eat your damn sushi, drink your pinot noir and shut the hell up.

 

[DaveO]

Another weak and illogical argument. Did you steal the instruments you play? How about the vehicle you use to get back and forth to gigs? How about the PC you're using to demonstrate your ignorance to us in this thread?

You complain about "us rich guys" without having a clue about my income level. You complain about the fat cats at compaines like Cakewalk and n-Track. Are they really making the kind of money you claim? Let's see some numbers to demostrate how correct you are. Assuming yo uhave none, what do your base those claims on? And if they make so much fucking money at your expense why don't you get off your butt and go work for them?!?!?! And please don't tell me because you want nothing to do with an entity as immoral as a software company. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

Disregarding the fact that my income level is nowhere near where you assume it to be, you have my sympathy, poverty stricken person. If you're so poor, why do you have a PC? Why do you have a hobby or even a job like music that requires such expensive tools? Shouldn't using that money on necessities likes food and clothing? Oh, wait. You'd get caught stealing those. Can't risk that, you'd go to prison.

So why do you pirate software? Because it's easy. Because you "know" you won't get caught. THAT'S why. It has nothing to do with "sticking it to the man". It's simply because you're a coward doing something wrong simply because you can. No that's not my "opinion", that's fact. If you stole everything you use to make and record music then maybe I'll have some reason to re-think that claim and call it my potentially wrong opinion. But I'm pretty damn sure you don't have the balls to walk into any music store and try to steal a guitar. And assuming I'm right (and I "know" I am) then calling you a balls-less coward is a fact. You have no balls because you do it only because you won't get caught.

If I'm wrong, show me where. I don't mean say "Everyone does it or else they lying about it". I mean back it up. Show me some facts to back up your claims. Show me a company making audio software that actually makes fucking over poor people a part of their business plan. Give me some logical reasons for showing how pirated software actually helps them by creating a market of paying customers down the line. Give me reasons why it's perfectly legitimate as long as you're not making money from playing and recording your music. And the arguements I want to hear most are those showing why you don't steal the gear you use that are physical goods (guitars, amps, drums, rack gear, etc.).

So far no one has come close to backing up those rediculous claims. The only backing up they've done is backing themselves into a corner. I'm still waiting for some facts and logic from the other side. Forget "some facts". I'll settle for "a" fact. Just one. Anybody?

 

[acidrock]

I don't steal myself, but I've heard there are people who've downloaded perfectly working versions of Sonar and never had any problems with it. Perfectly stable. No problems. No viruses. Great program. I've heard that these people just need to know where to look and be careful about what they're downloading. And I've heard they have no feelings of guilt, whatsoever.

Oh, how horrible a crime. So some rich guy doesn't make quite as much money as he might've otherwise made. Poor rich guy. I feel so bad for him. And maybe some other rich guy has to pay a fraction of a penny more when buying software to cover the cost of theft. Poor, poor rich guy. Cry me a freaking river rich guys. Poor people will continue to pirate software because poor people don't give a rats ass about the financial woes or rich people. So eat your damn sushi, drink your pinot noir and shut the hell up.

There are free programs out there to use,but I guess stealling is better.

After all these years of busting my ass as a construction worker it's good to find out I'm "rich".I guess "rich" means anyone who has more than you.

Does that mean it's ok to steal from you if I have less than you?


Man the rationalising of stealing software just gets dumber and dumber.

 

[someotherdude]

You're yelling at people who don't give a shit.

Nobody is rich if you ask them. But the people below their economic level sure think they are. Am I hands-to-mouth poor? Of course not, as you pointed out, I have enough money to buy some computuer equipment and musical gear to support a hobby. But that doesn't mean I have limitless dollars to spend whatever I want on whatever I want. My studio is far short of what I'd like it to be. My "studio" is a computer, monitors, a keyboard and cheap mic.

At this economic level, every couple hundred dollars matters, because it will probably be another half year till one can afford to drop a few more hundred on additional equipment, so if one has the option of downloading, FUCK YEAH! Would I try to walk into a music store and walk out with a new keyboard? What fucking idiot would? That doesn't mean I don't have balls, it means I'm smart.

And yet why do I think it's okay to steal from a software company? Because I don't give a shit. You show me how one person downloading is going to ruin a company, or put a programmer out on the street. You ask for evidence to support my argument - what about the evidence to support your argument? Prove to me that one person downloading ruins a company. And yes, computer programmers make good money. I used to live in Silicon Valley so I've known a few of those rich bastards (but of course none of them think of themselves as rich).

Of course if everyone downloaded, then the industry would obviously die. But that will never happen. There will always be holier-than-thou types to pay for all the people that don't give a shit, and no matter how much you bitch and moan and call us cowards, we DON'T GIVE A SHIT.

 

[lpdeluxe]

Someotherdude, you're a jerk.

When I was racing motorcycles (a very hardware-intensive sport) nobody EVER advocated "downloading what I want." Sorry, you get zero sympathy here.

You want to do something that requires a lot of technology to accomplish?

Wait till you can afford it.

Or are you some 'genius' for whom the rules don't apply?

Not very damn likely. What you are doing is raising the cost of business for those of us who are NOT thieves.

This is why I avoid posting on this thread, frankly. Too many jerks who think the world revolves around their limited perspectives, who think that convenience and the unlikelihood of getting caught makes them bulletproof.

Come back in 20 years, when you are (or should be) mature, and re-read what you've posted. Tell us about how you cheated the college you wanted your kids to go to out of the tuition, and how you scored everything for free when you out there on your own and not being supported by your parents.

We'll be waiting.

 

[mikefresh]

learn

i have one computer that i use to test the software, see how it works learn it, if its worth buying I will pay for it and run it on my other one..

If your making money off pirated software, you are cheating yourself, and if you manage to make a lot of money using pirated software, the irs will find out.. It happened to this guy in ohio..

 

[DaveO]

we DON'T GIVE A SHIT.

Talk about proving my point. You offer nothing, absolutely NOTHING, but "Nyah nyah, nyah."

And for the record, I don't have to come to the table with facts about how little money the software companies make. Why? Because I never used it as the basis for any point I made. All I said to you and others is that if that's your rationale then show me. SHow me how they make so much money. Show me how ripping them of because of that JUSTIFIED. Would you make all the money you could if you made a product good enough to bring to market? Well, I'm not going to debate that because it's something that will never happen. If you had the ability you'd get off your lazy butt and develop it, sell it for a measly $3 just so "the poor guys" could afford it, still manage to make enough money to sustain your business, and beat those fat cat companies at their own game. But we'll never see that day, will we?

Well, I can't wait for you to find out some of your gear got stolen at a gig. That laughing you hear in the distance will be me howling hysterically at how pissed off you are and the bullshit macho show you'll put on talking shit about how you'll pound that mother fucker when you catch him. You won't do SQUAT if you found him.

 

[Minion]

Who Really Cares One way or the Other......Not Me!!

There are Much more Important Crimes in the World than this Like Jay walking or speeding but you don"t see a Big Thread with poeple argueing the Pro"s and Cons of it here...WHY?? Because most Poeple Don"t care as there are Much more important things to worry about than who gets what software and were they get it, and if this is a Big concern for you like It seems like it is to some of you that you have your Priorities in Life a bit Backwords...

Leave this stuff to the Poeple who get Paid to worry about it .....

Jaywalking is a MUCH more serius Crime than downloading a Piece of Software as No one has ever Died from downloading software but they have from Jaywalking or Speeding......

 

[someotherdude]

Jaywalking is a MUCH more serius Crime than downloading a Piece of Software as No one has ever Died from downloading software but they have from Jaywalking or Speeding......

Thank you. Just because I advocate pirating software that doesn't make me a bad person. I don't steal money from people. I'm generous with homeless people. I donate to charity. I'm even that guy that gives money back to a cashier when they've given me too much change.

But with the software thing, really, who's actually getting hurt by it? Show me how any one person's life is negatively affected if some kid downloads software. I actually make decent money now, and in the last year have spent @$800 dollars on software. But I haven't always made this much money, and don't fault the people who can't afford software that download it. No merchandise has been lost. They weren't going to buy it anyway (teenagers and the average college student just don't have that kind of dough). So who have they hurt by downloading? Nobody. But many lack the logic to understand that. At worst, a downloader might help drive the price of the software up a fraction of a penny. Show me how I'm wrong and maybe I'll care.

 

[lexridge]

First off, please stop attacking me for using pirated software, because I do not. I have used it, who hasn't (except for acidrock, of course)? I was simply saying I didn't believe someone has "NEVER" used pirated software. From my original post that started this crap, I stated I liked free GPL'ed software, and wish everything was. I use Linux as my main system, and use windows for my studio, and have many free matching GPL apps on both platforms.

So far no one has come close to backing up those rediculous claims. The only backing up they've done is backing themselves into a corner. I'm still waiting for some facts and logic from the other side. Forget "some facts". I'll settle for "a" fact. Just one. Anybody?

The facts you require are bit hard to cough up. A few companies are still not publically traded, but a lot are:

Avid (Dididesign, M-Audio)
Sony (Purchased Sonic Foundry)
Yamaha (purchased Logic)
Matsushita/Panasonic (purchased Steinberg)
Tascam (Purchased GigaStudio)

Humm, seems like most of the big popular software is owned by business conglomerates. Seems like it would be pretty easy to get these "facts" if someone actually wanted to fuck with it. Not me.

Edit:
An article from 2000 (6 years ago) claims Cakewalk has more then 750,000 copies being used worldwide. WOW!
http://boston.internet.com/news/article.php/323841
/Edit

If everyone in the world stopped piracy, and Sony was able to add a cool million to their bottom line, do you think you'd get a raise, if you worked for them? Of course not. You will get your raise whenever you're suppose to get one. Nothing changes for the little programmer.

Sure, the employees are not rich, but the publically traded companies and Execs are.

It is quite possible that stealing software could actually be a huge tax write-off for these companies, which they love. Perhaps this is why the BSA never bothers to investigate reports of piracy. It could also explain why these big company's softwares generally don't need to be hacked (serial key protection only).

 

[DaveO]

I don't steal money from people. .... So who have they hurt by downloading? Nobody. Show me how I'm wrong and maybe I'll care.

Stealing = theft. It just doesn't get simpler. You're telling me I don't have the logic to understand that it's OK because a student or poor person doesn't have the money and wouldn't buy it anyway, so no sale was lost? Guess what. The software manufacturer's rights are protected by law and you're violating those rights, which constitutes theft. Where is your logic? Whether you agree with it or not the facts can't be clearer.

If you're so correct, why don't you put your money where your mouth is and REALLY take a stand. Pick a manufacturer with deep enough pockets to handle a court case (please not someone like Flavio Antoniolli of n-Track fame). Call them and call the police, tell them what you did, and let them try to prosecute you. You'll get loads of international attention when you use your allegedly-superior-to-mine logic to challenge the laws regarding intellectual property and software licensing. Since a judge would obviously have far more logic in his mental arsenal than you claim I do, he'd obviously rule in your favor, right? He'd obviously say that you did nothing wrong, no one was harmed, and the companies could just write off the loss anyway, right? When that happens you have my word that I'll issue a public apology and will also admit you were right and I was wrong.

How about this scenario. I'd bet every penny I have that your boss can find a younger person who could do your job either right now or with some small amount of training and that this younger person would be happy to do it for a lot less money than you make right now. So guess what. The fact that that person exists means you're ripping off your boss because you make more money than your job is worth to him. I guess he could just cut your salary and you'd tell him he was completely within his rights to do it, too. I mean, it's not like he's hurting anyone. HE'S the innocent victim here, getting screwed out of rediculous salary demands by a greedy, unscrupulous employee. So you're gonna go see Mr. Bossman first thing tomorrow and demand taking a paycut, right?

 

[acidrock]

Stealing = theft. It just doesn't get simpler.

How about this scenario. I'd bet every penny I have that your boss can find a younger person who could do your job either right now or with some small amount of training and that this younger person would be happy to do it for a lot less money than you make right now. So guess what. The fact that that person exists means you're ripping off your boss because you make more money than your job is worth to him. I guess he could just cut your salary and you'd tell him he was completely within his rights to do it, too. I mean, it's not like he's hurting anyone. HE'S the innocent victim here, getting screwed out of rediculous salary demands by a greedy, unscrupulous employee. So you're gonna go see Mr. Bossman first thing tomorrow and demand taking a paycut, right?

But Daveo,the boss is "RICH" because he has more than his employee.


These guys are only for theft when it works in their favor.

If software developers make a lot of money it's because they deserve to.If it were that easy,we would just come up with our own software programs.

It must be unfair if a guy who has the skills,creativity and motivation to make something that people want actually gets compensated for it.I guess the people downloading the warez feel they should be the arbiters of that persons compensation,seeing as they contributed nothing at all towards it.

The part that gets me is that there are free alternatives out there,yet we've got people who insist on pirating.That right there tells you all of this crying poor is a bunch of BS.

"No one gets hurt"

Just the developers and the legitimate users.

 

[someotherdude]

Stealing = theft. It just doesn't get simpler. You're telling me I don't have the logic to understand that it's OK because a student or poor person doesn't have the money and wouldn't buy it anyway, so no sale was lost? Guess what. The software manufacturer's rights are protected by law and you're violating those rights, which constitutes theft. Where is your logic? Whether you agree with it or not the facts can't be clearer.

If you're so correct, why don't you put your money where your mouth is and REALLY take a stand. Pick a manufacturer with deep enough pockets to handle a court case (please not someone like Flavio Antoniolli of n-Track fame). Call them and call the police, tell them what you did, and let them try to prosecute you. You'll get loads of international attention when you use your allegedly-superior-to-mine logic to challenge the laws regarding intellectual property and software licensing. Since a judge would obviously have far more logic in his mental arsenal than you claim I do, he'd obviously rule in your favor, right? He'd obviously say that you did nothing wrong, no one was harmed, and the companies could just write off the loss anyway, right? When that happens you have my word that I'll issue a public apology and will also admit you were right and I was wrong.

How about this scenario. I'd bet every penny I have that your boss can find a younger person who could do your job either right now or with some small amount of training and that this younger person would be happy to do it for a lot less money than you make right now. So guess what. The fact that that person exists means you're ripping off your boss because you make more money than your job is worth to him. I guess he could just cut your salary and you'd tell him he was completely within his rights to do it, too. I mean, it's not like he's hurting anyone. HE'S the innocent victim here, getting screwed out of rediculous salary demands by a greedy, unscrupulous employee. So you're gonna go see Mr. Bossman first thing tomorrow and demand taking a paycut, right?

That's the most retarded argument I've ever heard.

Stealing = Theft? What are you, a fucking thesaurus? You've completely missed the point. You don't seem to understand that legality and morality are not always one and the same.

And that argument about my boss cutting my salary? Frankly, I don't get it. What the hell are you trying to say? Instead of making vague meaningless arguments through weird metaphores why don't you just give me some absolutes? Besides, you're wrong. I train young people how to do my job - I kick ass at it.

I've never said that any software company is trying to screw the little guy. I've just said that if somebody can't afford to buy the software, they shouldn't feel even slightly guilty pirating it because no real harm has been done to anybody. Show me how I'm wrong. Without using weird metaphores.

 

[acidrock]

Frankly, I don't get it. .

That says it all.

 

[acidrock]

The part that gets me is that there are free alternatives out there,yet we've got people who insist on pirating.That right there tells you all of this crying poor is a bunch of BS.

.

 

[DaveO]

That's the most retarded argument I've ever heard.

Stealing = Theft? What are you, a fucking thesaurus? You've completely missed the point. You don't seem to understand that legality and morality are not always one and the same.

And that argument about my boss cutting my salary? Frankly, I don't get it. What the hell are you trying to say? Instead of making vague meaningless arguments through weird metaphores why don't you just give me some absolutes? Besides, you're wrong. I train young people how to do my job - I kick ass at it.

I've never said that any software company is trying to screw the little guy. I've just said that if somebody can't afford to buy the software, they shouldn't feel even slightly guilty pirating it because no real harm has been done to anybody. Show me how I'm wrong. Without using weird metaphores.

I missed no points. The fact that the "poor person little guy student" can't afford it and so would never buy it any is completely irrelevant. You steal the software you're stealing from the software company because the right to use the software they create is what they sell to make the money they use to survive. End of story. Pirating software is theft of service.

I'm done for now. I've had so much fun pointing out the obvious holes in your arguments and providing example after example of how you're wrong it should be as illegal as the practices you think you can defend. How you guys got so spun up about this is beyond me, but I've had a blast baiting you just to see what nonsense you'd come up with next. You've never failed to come up with something more rediculous than the last time you posted.

 

[rayc]

That's the most retarded argument I've ever heard.
I train young people how to do my job - I kick ass at it.

What, your job? Training young people? Getting someone else to do your job? You kick donkeys as your job? Donkey kincking's a side line? I'm confused. Syntax my friend, mixed metaphorically speaking you've kicked the donkey out with the dish water.
Cheers
rayC

 

[MessianicDreams]

i haven't read much of the previous pages..i;m not prepared to get into a fight about my point of view. it is what it is, and perhaps with time and hindsight it may change. please accept it as being my view, and not some view i'm trying to say is an absolute.

a bit of background information: i am a Sound Tech student, 19 years-old, and not from an over-wealthy background. i'm not some spoilt fuckhead who thinks spending £300 on an Mbox is a drop in the bucket. i sweated over the summer to earn that money, as i did for the money to buy my strat and my monitors and my amp and all the other equipment which i own.


i use pirated software sometimes. i own and run Pro Tools, bought legally. My XP OS is bought and paid for, as is MS Office.

My Waves Diamond Bundle is, however, totally and completely illegal, as are my iZotope, Elemental audio, PSP, Sonalksis, and all the other plugins that i have. i have broken the law by downloading and installing them onto my system, that much i am aware of.

and somewhere inside of me i know that what i'm doing is "wrong". i do feel a bit guilty. but i also think, well what difference does it make?

i'm not likely to spend £2.5k on a plug-in bundle am i? i'm not depriving anyone of anything. it's not as though Waves have suffered any sort of "loss". i'm not making any profit off this, as i don't get paid for any of my work. yes, it's against the law, but i think that's about as far as the argument can be taken. in my particular case, any talk of depraving the companies i'm stealing from don't really make sense, as i would not have bought these plugins anyway..



but perhaps the laws are wrong? i think that copyright law, as it exists now, is outdated. there needs to be a serious revision into it which takes into account the phenomenon that is illegal downloading.


i think that many people have a hard time coming to terms with my point of view because they seem to think that the law = morals. there are other laws which i chose to ignore, and it doesn't hurt anyone else.

again, i'll say that i know what i'm doing is legally wrong..but morally..i don't have much of a problem with it..


just my £0.02 to throw into the fire

MD