Do you really buy that expensive recording software?

[ahuimanu]

I will now illustrate the fallacy of the "they never had my business to begin with" argument for the rampant use of warez with the use of a parable:

The parable of the shoe-maker (Imagine you are in a pre-modern village):

Normally, you walk on bare feet 5 miles to the watering hole. One day this guy, an expert craftsman in the making of quality footware, says:

"Hey, I'll sell you some quality footware so that your feet won't hurt and get cut up when you walk to the watering hole."

Epxert shoe guy continues:

"I'll sell a pair of my finest shoes to you for one cow."

You think about it...

"Man, that walk to the watering hole IS killing my feet, but it never occurred to me to buy quality footwear."

You reason: "well, all I do is walk to the watering hole, it's not as if I am a traveling salesman, messenger or some such, I'm just a regular dude."

Sensing your hesitation, the expert shoe-maker craftsman says: "hey, why don't you come to my workshop and I'll let you try on a pair and walk around in them for a day; see what you really think of them!"

"Nah," you think to yourself, "I'm too cheap and want to spend my cows on other stuff." You further reason to yourself: "Anyway, there's this dude here in the village who makes cheap sandals out of old leaves and stuff and that only costs one chicken, what a deal. Heck even my cousin in the village knows how to make tree-bark sandals for free."

"No thanks," you reply to expert shoe-making craftsman, "I'm not in the market for your wares."

The expert shoe-making craftman moves on and bids you a good day.

Meanwhile, you continue to walk to the watering hole as usual, but your feet are blistered as the old leaf sandals don't hold up too well.

Later, a buddy of yours from the village shows you a cave where the some of the expert craftsman's shoes are hidden.

Your buddy says: "hey, Ugg from the next village over found a way to steal these nice leather shoes out of the back of the shoe-makers shop. He's been leaving them all over in different caves, have some dude!"

You reply, "oh boy, I remember those shoes, I really want a pair of good shoes; the walk to the watering hole is killing my feet."

The next day you are joyously sauntering over to the watering hole basking in the comfort of your new shoes. You think to yourself: "Man, the walk was never easier! I don't hurt and I am actually enjoying the details of the scenery more than I ever did before."

As you continue your walk you run into the expert-craftsman shoemaker who seems to have a worried look on his face.

You greet him, "hey man, I just love your shoes! Do you have any tips on keeping them polished?"

The expert-craftsman shoemaker notices your shoes and remembers you:

"Hey, I tried to sell you some of those, but you told me you weren't in the market, where'd you get them by the way?"

You reply: "Oh, well I changed my mind and bought them USED from a neighbor in the village. By the way, can you tell me how to tighten the buckle?"

Expert-craftsman shoe-maker, looking even more troubled: "You are the 20th person I've met on this road today, coming from your village, who has a fairly new-looking pair of my shoes on their feet claiming that they are used!"

Unphased, you begin to open your mouth when the expert shoe-maker interrupts you (looking even more troubled)...

"I don't understand this at all, I've only sold two pairs of shoes in your village and yet everyone on this trail tells me they bought their shoes used in the village."

You finally interject:

"I don't know dude, but I totally bought mine used from a neighbor, you callin' me a liar?"

Expert shoe-maker replies:

"Well, I don't know either - these shoes come new with a scroll describing care and use, didn't you get the scroll from the previous owner?"

You, still haughty:

"No, I don't know nothing about no scroll man, but I totally spent two chickens on this from my neighbor."

And with that you stroll off with an indignance that your honor was questioned. As you move on towards the watering hole you overhear a conversation behind you...

Expert shoe-maker:

"Hey you there, where'd you get those shoes?"

Passer by from the village: "Oh, from a cave. Hey do you know how to tighten this buckle?"

THE END

 

[sloom]

Me too! It's almost embarrassing, really...

 

[dkerwood]

The Parable of the Shoe Maker (revised)

So the shoemaker comes up to you and says "I'll sell you my most excellent shoes for one cow."

You shake your head and say, "No thanks. My leaf sandals work perfectly well." And they do. The two of you part ways.

A few days later, your neighbor says, "Hey, man, I bought those shoes from the shoemaker, and they're so great, I took them apart to see how they were made! I was then able to duplicate it and made you a pair for free!"

Although your leaf sandals still work perfectly well, you accept the shoes, and are happy to have them. True, they may be missing a buckle here and there, and you don't have any idea how to fix a few imperfections in these "fake" shoes, but since you were never going to buy the shoes in the first place and were perfectly happy without them, who cares? You know that if necessary, you could easily just throw the shoes away and go back to your sandals, which STILL work perfectly well.

Shoe maker still gets his sale (from your neighbor), and you still don't buy any shoes that you don't need.

The end.

 

[sloom]

Pardon me...

This would be a good time to mention that I was not, in my just-previous-to-this post, referring to the shoe story. I was referring to the plethora of free software and plug-ins. And now, back to our discussion in progress...

 

[wheelema]

The Parable of the Shoe Maker (revised)

So the shoemaker comes up to you and says "I'll sell you my most excellent shoes for one cow."

You shake your head and say, "No thanks. My leaf sandals work perfectly well." And they do. The two of you part ways.

A few days later, your neighbor says, "Hey, man, I bought those shoes from the shoemaker, and they're so great, I took them apart to see how they were made! I was then able to duplicate it and made you a pair for free!"

Although your leaf sandals still work perfectly well, you accept the shoes, and are happy to have them. True, they may be missing a buckle here and there, and you don't have any idea how to fix a few imperfections in these "fake" shoes, but since you were never going to buy the shoes in the first place and were perfectly happy without them, who cares? You know that if necessary, you could easily just throw the shoes away and go back to your sandals, which STILL work perfectly well.

Shoe maker still gets his sale (from your neighbor), and you still don't buy any shoes that you don't need.

The end.

Heh. This is called 'reverse engineering'. Comparing this to software privacy is comparing apples to reverse polish calculators. Nothing in common. Companies pull this shit all the time. Completely legal.

Pretend that you own Ferrari. Your company drops fifteen billion developing a four seater that can travel 3,000 miles on a tank of gas while crusing at 200 miles per hour.

Now, along comes someone who, for pennies, empowers you to shovel raw material into one end of his device and as long as all of the requisite molecules are present, pop out this new super Ferrari... right down to the hood ornament... at the other end.

Wouldn't you be pissed?

 

[ermghoti]

Any example with a physical product is going to be misleading.

Say you take a couple years off work, having aquired a sizable loan to fulfill your life's dream: to publish a book.

Two year's work later, and you have self-published your masterpiece, "How to Steal Software on the Internet for fun and Profit," and have printed 100,000 copies. What with the looming loan, a bunch of rent payments and whatnot, you decide if you can sell half your copies, at $25 each, you can at least break even. If you sell 75,000, you can think about a follow-up: "I Don't Care Who gets Screwed, I Want It for Free."

So you ship out hundreds of copies for review and promotional purposes. Six months later, you have sold 15,000 copies. It seems a couple of the reviewers scanned copies of your epic onto the Internet. Even though your book is literally front page news (The New York Times story read 'I certainly wasn't going to pay $25, so nobody lost anything'" and your concepts are being used by millions of cretins worldwide, you are headed for the local welfare office.

Good thing nobody got hurt. I mean, you still have the books you didn't sell or give away, so nobody took anything from anybody, right?

 

[bad intentionz]

only download software thats out of date like cool edit 2.0 ETC

 

[sean_mur88]

my shoe analogy:

nike spends x million dollars designing, testing, and marketing a shoe, endorsments etc
they make shoes in (insert foreign country here) for $3 a pair
shoes sell in north america for $150

really, that's a rediculous markup ... that's like 50 times what it costs to make them, but i guarentee that most people would have a major moral problem with stealing a pair of running shoes, even if the only "testing" you can do is a walk up and down the isle at foot locker. not exactly a great analogy, but i thought while we were on the subject of shoes...

the fact is, there are lots of things that are very cheap to manufacture but quite expensive to buy because of all the costs associated with r&d, advertising etc, as well as the reputation of a company. buying designer jeans for $250 that have the same amount of material as no name brands that sell for $20 might seen rediculous considering the fact that the materials might cost $10 in both cases, but the fact is ... if you want quality, you have to pay for it. same goes for software. if you don't want to pay the "inflated" prices for tommy hilfigger, head over to winners and get something similar without all the details for a fraction of the price.

ps i just read this entire thread so i felt obliged to put something in here just to keep it going

 

[vogukedr]

Not meaning to preach or get off page here but being an ex-pow from viet nam, I know that freedom is not free.

Neither is software.

We all work many hours sometimes, sequencing and recording just to get something we create to sound right, just like the guys that write the programming code for us to be able to do this.

I don't want someone stealing my songs that I've created, that's why I copyright them, and I'm sure they feel the same way.

I once sequenced some tacks for a guy who has a little, as he calls it "pro" studio where he charges $150 per hour for studio time. I quit doing work for him when I found out he got his DAW software using Limewire.

If you're gonna play, you need to pay.

Granted.......I get a free license plate that says "purple heart" on my car, but I think I paid for that.......

 

[hrwmusic]

audacity

recently i realized how rediculus warez really is. so now that my consience is clean and i am using audacity i can really get to work!

 

[peritus]

I don't encourage piracy...but I really must unsubscribe to this thread..

 

[sloom]

Yep. The only issue here is making music, and living with yourself. If you feel guilty about something, you are free to fix it.

 

[dawg2k5]

only download software thats out of date like cool edit 2.0 ETC

and seriously, you think it's ok to do that?

 

[rayc]

This'll sound dumb & will elicite a lot of oh yeah, as if's - BUT:
With pirated stuff - from taping LPs through to CD & DVD burns I've, generally, ended up buying the things I've liked.
As a poor school kid & later college student my friends usually made cassette tapes of their LPs for me knowing I didn't have the readies to buy my own. Since getting a job and eventually the readies I've bought just about all the LPs I had taped. The most significant exception being stuff that can't be had from CD/Record stores OR 2nd hand stores etc. for love or money (and I've paid as much as $175 for an LP to do just this).
The same is the case with other stuff - I acquired a few VCDs/DVDs of movies prior to general release & have bought "proper" copies of the ones I like & play.
"Demo" versions of PC applications similarly - especially given that upgrades, support & tweaking aren't readily available to cracked users.
I've been bemused to see how rife copying has become in the particularly rarified air of those who consider themselves to be morally superior through acts of piety etc.
I'm no saint - I do do what I've explained above. It doesn't make me right or less wrong - it's just what I do.
Cheers
rayC

 

[wheelema]

You can rationalize until the cows come home. Theft is theft. Intent plays NO ROLE whatsoever.

Having said that, get over yourself. If you want to steal, fine. Steal. But for heaven's sake, stop trying to convince people that your actions are somehow excusable... you come off sounding like Nixon.

Stealing, theft, robbing... all of these activities have a long and dishonorable tradition historically. Stand up, walk proud.

 

[Emusic]

What weelema said.
Must admit I have used some copies at earlier stages, but now I buy any software I use for making my music. At a proffessional approach, trying to pitch our songs to artists and managers, it feels good to know that buying contributes to future software development.
Amen.

 

[Minion]

I look at it This Way....

If I am Not Going to Buy the Software even if It wasn"t Downloadable then the Company who created the Software isn"t Looseing a Penny because I just wouldn"t Buy it .....

If I had to Pay For Software I wouldn"t Have a Computer and I would be Doing Analogue Recording because I couldn"t afford to have a PC if I had to Pay for all My Software.....

So if there is no way you would Pay for the Software even if it wasn"t free then the Software Company isn"t looseing a Penny and if it is Good Software they are Gaining Advertizeing because I would tell everyone that it was Good Software.....

It is the Same with CD"s and DVD"s , If I couldn"t get them For free I still wouldn"t Buy them so the Music/Movie Companies aren"t looseing anything.....

Cheers

PS: I suppose if Software was a Tangible Item(Something you can Hold in your Hand) I would Feel Bad But since it isn"t I Don"t Consider it Stealing as the Software Company doesn"t Know about it...Life is to Short To Live By other Poeples Rules, I am the GOD of my World and what I say Goes (In My World)....

 

[chamelious]

You can rationalize until the cows come home. Theft is theft. Intent plays NO ROLE whatsoever.

So a man who steals someones ferrari is the same as a starving kid who steals a loaf of bread?

Things are never that simple. Life is too short. I wont be stealing anyones ferrari as they've paid big money for it and it may well ruin their lives. However i probably will be *stealing* the odd bit of software as i cant see it ruining or even remotly affecting anyones life.

I hate to sound cliche, but lifes too short to live by other peoples rules.

 

[wheelema]

...I hate to sound cliche, but lifes too short to live by other peoples rules.

Cool. Tell me where you live. I want to come over, beat the living crap out of you, rape your wife, kill your kids, steal all of your possessions, and then burn down your house.

Of COURSE we have to live by rules! We may not agree with the rules (I sure don't) but that is why we have the legislative process. Not the best process in the world, perhaps, but I personally know of nothing better.

If I have no problem with people stealing things than how can I be upset when they steal my things? Anybody who wants to break the law is 110% entitled to do so. They are NOT, however, entitled to bitch about the consequences.

Hack away.

 

[Minion]

I Live at #14-1727 NorthPark ST, Victoria BC Canada...

I"ll be Waiting.....