DIY Burst Finish?

[Light]

Why do you guys hate metric so much?
I was confused by that 10 mil measurement also.

In this case, measuring in mils is much more acurate.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[dave.....]

stripper ?

yareek.......... i dont use chemical strippers unless i realy have to...... i feel the wood will absorb some of the chemicals then when you are priming or sealing the thinners in the primer or sealer well reactivate those absorbed chemicals and begin to stain your finish..... or they will make soft spots..... when ever possible i will strip w/ sanding.... of course being careful not to remove any wood...but thats just me............

 

[dave.....]

les paul

yareek.......... if you decide to sell the les paul i would be interested in just the body........

 

[TelePaul]

In this case, measuring in mils is much more acurate.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

haha can you imagine a 1 cm finish??

 

[ggunn]

Why do you guys hate metric so much?
I was confused by that 10 mil measurement also.

For some ranges of measurement, the mil is the best unit; the millimeter is too big and the micron is too small. I work in microelectronics, where the measuring of distance is almost entirely metric, but even though there is no "clean" conversion, the mil is still the basic unit for some measurements.

 

[32-20-Blues]

For some ranges of measurement, the mil is the best unit; the millimeter is too big and the micron is too small. I work in microelectronics, where the measuring of distance is almost entirely metric, but even though there is no "clean" conversion, the mil is still the basic unit for some measurements.

Cool, thanks for the clarification. I have only ever dealt in metric, so I'll familiarise myself with the mil as a unit.

 

[muttley600]

Cool, thanks for the clarification. I have only ever dealt in metric, so I'll familiarise myself with the mil as a unit.

I was lucky enough to be educated when we here in the UK were changing to the metric system way back when.....

The upshot is I can happilly work with either. As a rule bigger distances I measure in feet and inches and smaller distances in millimetres. This reason for this was explained to me when I was doing my apprenticeship back in the 70's by one of those older guys working at the bench. If you want to remember a distance of say 2345mm the corresponding imperial measurement 92.3" will be easier to carry in your head as you mark it out. Ditto in reverse. Its a habit Ive just got into doing over the years. The best and most accurate system of measurement I still believe I came across again when an apprentice at Rolls Royce. The American Aircraft industry supplied all drawing in inches with tenths of an inch where as here they were all inch and eighths. Fractions of an inch as tenths is mch easier to work in than eigths of an inch as far as I was concerned. I believe it lead to a lot fewer errors on the bench as well.

I rarely have the occasion to work down to mils but find it much easier to comprehend than other systems. I've never measured the thickness of any finish I've applied I just aim for as light as possible or practical.

 

[32-20-Blues]

I was lucky enough to be educated when we here in the UK were changing to the metric system way back when.....

The upshot is I can happilly work with either. As a rule bigger distances I measure in feet and inches and smaller distances in millimetres. This reason for this was explained to me when I was doing my apprenticeship back in the 70's by one of those older guys working at the bench. If you want to remember a distance of say 2345mm the corresponding imperial measurement 92.3" will be easier to carry in your head as you mark it out. Ditto in reverse. Its a habit Ive just got into doing over the years. The best and most accurate system of measurement I still believe I came across again when an apprentice at Rolls Royce. The American Aircraft industry supplied all drawing in inches with tenths of an inch where as here they were all inch and eighths. Fractions of an inch as tenths is mch easier to work in than eigths of an inch as far as I was concerned. I believe it lead to a lot fewer errors on the bench as well.

I rarely have the occasion to work down to mils but find it much easier to comprehend than other systems. I've never measured the thickness of any finish I've applied I just aim for as light as possible or practical.

I finsihed in school here about four years ago, so everything in terms of woodwork was metric. However, my father, to whom I owe a debt for providing me with much of my woodworking knowledge, worked in imperial measurements. When I was younger, he'd call out measurements to me, and I'd constantly be transferring in my head.

Now, I'm sorry to say, all I can work with is measurements in millimetres, however big. Therefore I'm frequently dealing with numbers running into the thousands.

 

[Light]

haha can you imagine a 1 cm finish??

Actually, I think I saw one on a Gianini the other day.



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[Light]

I was lucky enough to be educated when we here in the UK were changing to the metric system way back when.....

The upshot is I can happilly work with either. As a rule bigger distances I measure in feet and inches and smaller distances in millimetres. This reason for this was explained to me when I was doing my apprenticeship back in the 70's by one of those older guys working at the bench. If you want to remember a distance of say 2345mm the corresponding imperial measurement 92.3" will be easier to carry in your head as you mark it out. Ditto in reverse. Its a habit Ive just got into doing over the years. The best and most accurate system of measurement I still believe I came across again when an apprentice at Rolls Royce. The American Aircraft industry supplied all drawing in inches with tenths of an inch where as here they were all inch and eighths. Fractions of an inch as tenths is mch easier to work in than eigths of an inch as far as I was concerned. I believe it lead to a lot fewer errors on the bench as well.

I rarely have the occasion to work down to mils but find it much easier to comprehend than other systems. I've never measured the thickness of any finish I've applied I just aim for as light as possible or practical.

And see, in my shop, we measure EVERYTHING in 32nds of an inch. No eigths, no sixteenths, just 32nds. We all find that by keeping everything in the same scale like that, we make fewer mistakes.

Of course, the other part is we try very hard not to measure anything at all. Once you start worrying about numbers, you are that much more likely to forget them, so if you can just mark something directly off of the guitar you are working on, it will be SO much more acurate. And that's not even taking in to acount the who "which side of the line do I cut on" issue. Most of the time, the most acurate measurement is just not to measure. Baffles most non-woodworkers, but it's true.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[muttley600]

Of course, the other part is we try very hard not to measure anything at all.

ah but you are measuring. The tool you are using is your eyes and the unit of measurement is experience.

I do a lot of work by "feel" but only when it comes to final graduation of top and back plate and how thick ribs need to be in order to get them bent round tight cutaways etc. I work by judging stiffness then. Are you talking abut making or repairing without using mesurement? I couldn't build without making hundreds of measurements as I go. I rely on jigs a lot and do work by eye a lot but need to turn to measurement at many stages of construction.

As to which side of the line to work to. I was taught to mark and cut "ON" the line!! Better to stay on the side of caution tho and leave a trace of HB when working with hand tools. Theres always the old expression "I've cut it twice now and its still too short" to watch out for Boy are we off topic now!!!

 

[32-20-Blues]

Theres always the old expression "I've cut it twice now and its still too short" to watch out for Boy are we off topic now!!!

Possibly off topic, but it's undoubtedly interesting and valuable advice. I am consistently amazed that this type of information is free.

 

[Light]

ah but you are measuring. The tool you are using is your eyes and the unit of measurement is experience.

I do a lot of work by "feel" but only when it comes to final graduation of top and back plate and how thick ribs need to be in order to get them bent round tight cutaways etc. I work by judging stiffness then. Are you talking abut making or repairing without using mesurement? I couldn't build without making hundreds of measurements as I go. I rely on jigs a lot and do work by eye a lot but need to turn to measurement at many stages of construction.

As to which side of the line to work to. I was taught to mark and cut "ON" the line!! Better to stay on the side of caution tho and leave a trace of HB when working with hand tools. Theres always the old expression "I've cut it twice now and its still too short" to watch out for Boy are we off topic now!!!

Well, what I'm really talking about is anything that gets the measurment done without the use of a ruler. Jigs are one example (and we have hundreds floating around the shop), another is to just hold the piece in place and marking it off of the actual guitar. Or, in the case of making a new bridge, you can just tape the old bridge to the new blank and mark it that way. Anything to avoid the inevitable number mistakes of using a ruler.

On the subject of jigs, we just got an overarm router, and for the electrics me and one of the other guys in the shop make, it may well be the best investement I've ever made. Dad hasn't thought of anything to use it for on his acoustics, but I'm betting he will. We've done a lot the same tasks with a drill press in the past, but the speed of the drill press is too low, and the bearings aren't made for that kind of lateral force. We got THIS ONE. Kick ass machine, let me tell you. Between that and the shapers (two of these, so we can keep one set up to cut in either direction), there isn't much we can't jig up.



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[muttley600]

Well, what I'm really talking about is anything that gets the measurment done without the use of a ruler. Jigs are one example (and we have hundreds floating around the shop), another is to just hold the piece in place and marking it off of the actual guitar. Or, in the case of making a new bridge, you can just tape the old bridge to the new blank and mark it that way. Anything to avoid the inevitable number mistakes of using a ruler.

with you now I do that all the time as well.

A good over arm is handy for hundreds of jobs. The one I use I made myself and doubles as a duplicarver with a bit of moding. I use it pretty much for anything that would be done with a Safe-T-planer or what ever they call them now. Good for getting the taper on neck blanks and headstocks. I have also jigged up mine to cut binding channels. Couldn't live without it. It also has the best ever router in it, An old Elu vary speed and 1/2" collet, man I love that router I had three and I'm down to one now. Shame they don't still make them. Never found one that comes close.

 

[Light]

with you now I do that all the time as well.

A good over arm is handy for hundreds of jobs. The one I use I made myself and doubles as a duplicarver with a bit of moding. I use it pretty much for anything that would be done with a Safe-T-planer or what ever they call them now. Good for getting the taper on neck blanks and headstocks. I have also jigged up mine to cut binding channels. Couldn't live without it. It also has the best ever router in it, An old Elu vary speed and 1/2" collet, man I love that router I had three and I'm down to one now. Shame they don't still make them. Never found one that comes close.

I fucking HATE Safe-T-Planers. That was one of the main reasons I got this thing. My guitars have a geometry that makes if really tough to get a flat surface to glue the top to, so I needed something which would get that surface flat. Something like the Grizzley Wood Mill would be better, but it would also cost 5 times as much. My friend Frank Ford swears by his wood mill for a ton of repair tasks, but none of our repair guys can think of a use for it, dad has no use for it, and I can only think of the one thing I would use it for. Seems pretty limited for a $2000+ machine.

The only reason it took us so long to get the Overarm router is because dad couldn't think of anything HE would use it for, and since he is the boss and all... Well, you know how that goes. Finally, I just went to him and said, "you pay for half, and I'll pay for half." One of the other guys in the shop, who makes his own line of solid body instruments, tried it for the first time the day after we got it, and I'm pretty sure he was wishing he had come up with that deal years ago. I know I wish I had. Of course, now dad likes the machine so much he is trying to figure out some way HE can use it. Like most woodworkers, he's never met a tool he didn't like.

Personally, I just made a jig for the pin router tonight which is going to make a task which used to take me an hour and a half to machine plus 6-8 hours of sanding (and sanding maple to boot) down to 10 minutes of machining with MAYBE 30-60 minutes of sanding. THAT, as far as I'm concerned, is a tool which is worth it's weight in gold. At the very least, it is a tool which will be profitable.

As far as the best router ever, you should try out the Bosch Magnesium routers. We've got a 1617EVS, and it kicks some serious ass. It is variable speed (not actually much of a feature, if you ask me, because I never use any bits which are large enough to require a speed slower than max), a little more powerful than many routers of it's size (2 1/2 HP as opposed to the Porter Cable 690's, which are 1 3/4 HP), and (most importantly), it has absolutely rock solid bearings. It also has a "soft" start, which is better for the bit, the bearings, and your hands, and is relatively light weight while still damping out FAR more vibration than a 690 (certain parts of the motor are made out of magnesium, which is what does it, or so they say). It runs smooth, fast, and has torque to burn.

Other than a few dedicated routers (Our friend Jim Olson got the idea from my dad, though dad only dedicates the routers for a few tasks - cutting dovetails, butt wedges, the lap joint for his x-brace, and maybe a few others - unlike Jim who dedicates a single router to EVERY task, and never changes it - his shop is kind of like a wood workers wet dream. He has over 100 routers, last I checked), we do pretty much every task with our 1 Bosch router, even though we have about a dozen 690s laying around. (I am using a 690 for the overarm router, though). You should absolutely check out the Bosch routers. Killer tools. I can't recomend them enough. I wish I could get a dozen or so more (or at least a couple more, you know).


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[Milnoque]

Hey Light,

Staying off topic, Have you tried one of those VS Bosch Colt palm routers? It's really just a glorified laminate trimmer but it's so well designed I find I use it for all kinds of things.

 

[muttley600]

Frank is an ingeneous guy when it comes to finding solutions to repair problems. I've only met him a couple of times but he always thinks around problems in a unique way. Safe-T-Planers are good for the odd job but for a serious shop you need a router evertime. Either an overarm or a pin router in solid table which are the two options I have. My Safe-T-Planer has stayed in a box for years now!! A drill press is not designed for sideways forces what with the chuck being push fit .

and since he is the boss and all... Well, you know how that goes.

A distant memory but I had a boss once. Its been me for quite a while now (if you dont count her indoors), so I get to choose the new toys I play with. My biggest factor with machine tools is space. Round here space costs a lot of money so every square foot has to earn its keep. My most recent toy that I've aquired is a new Tormek . Been meaning to get one for years and finally did what a joy it is to have one.. If you use water stones for sharpening as I do get one if you haven't got one already. Used to use them years ago and forgot how great they are.

I've seen the Bosch Router before, they are probaly the biggest sellers here in the UK ow that ELU and Makita are no longer.. I have a smaller one for hand work but haven't been entirely happy with it. You know how you get used the way a tool is setup well I think thats partly it. The weight the position of the controls and the balance etc. I'll check one out next time I'm off buying tools. Variable speed for me is essential what ever size bit I'm useing. The ELU has such a smooth control as well as being the first router to use sott start and has an anti kick on it which is one reason I love them so much. You can wind it up and down even on the deepest plunge without chatter or burning. The two I lost didn't break either they were stolen from the boot of my car. I'm sure they are still going strong. I just hope the guy that nicked them lost a finger or two when he used them Those two routers alone cost me around £500 when you add the micro adjusters and spare bases that I had with them.

I have about 6 or seven routers in the shop and always fall back on the ELU pretty much for the same reasons you state for the 1617EVS. On the plus side Bosch are really easy to get here and spares are right to hand as well.

By the way that overarm looks pretty sturdy. Let me know how it stands up to day to day use. That for me is the acid test.

Milnoque, I have one of those palm routers. Good for many jobs but a little under powered sometimes and a little top heavy. It does feel like a laminate trimmer when you get it running fast but still a good solid tool for the price. I would still advise anyone to get a variable speed router. Gives more control.

 

[Light]

Hey Light,

Staying off topic, Have you tried one of those VS Bosch Colt palm routers? It's really just a glorified laminate trimmer but it's so well designed I find I use it for all kinds of things.

We just got one, but I haven't tried it yet. Ours will just stay set up as a laminate trimier for triming backs and tops to size, in all likelyhood.



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[Light]

My biggest factor with machine tools is space. Round here space costs a lot of money so every square foot has to earn its keep.

We're extremly lucky in that reguard. Dad bought the building in 1975, so at this point we have 3,000 square feet (including the basement) which is completely paid off. Of course, with 3 full time repair people, dad, and I (not to mention 30 years worth of saved up used parts), we are still running short of room, but we still have more room than most repair shops I've seen, and by quite a lot.

My most recent toy that I've aquired is a new Tormek . Been meaning to get one for years and finally did what a joy it is to have one.. If you use water stones for sharpening as I do get one if you haven't got one already. Used to use them years ago and forgot how great they are.

We've had one for close to 15 years now, as far as I can remember. Everytime I read a sharpening article in Fine Woodworking (which seems to be every month, along with another article on cutting dovetails by hand, how to measure and mark, and something about seting up a hand plane - I think they need some new article ideas), I just kind of look at these people using water stones and try to figure out; when they get to do any woodwork? I mean, a sharp chisel (or what have you) is very important, but the last time I tried to do it by hand, it took me forever. I like being able to get even the most god awful damaged chisel and have it sharp enough to shave with (the back of my left hand looks a little funny sometimes) in 15 minutes or less. That, also, is a tool which makes me money, you know?

By the way that overarm looks pretty sturdy. Let me know how it stands up to day to day use. That for me is the acid test.

Well, we've just had it for a week yet, but so far it seems built to last a while. And yeah, it is quite sturdy.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[muttley600]

I've been using a larger cruder water wheel that I picked up at auction for a while. The good thing about the Tormek system is how clean quick and precise it is. I can still hone an edge by hand in pretty quick time but a good wheel is essential for grinding the angle to start off. You still need to polish the face and thats what seems to take the time for me. Water stones, diamond stones and stacks of various arkansas lying about for that. Little and often is my mantra. Yeh my arms are often covered in bald spots when I'm bringing m yplane irons upto scratch. Chisels I do the slip test on my fingernails


My shop is paid for but it is not massive, To expand would cost an arm and a leg at present so I'm holding fire for now. I still have that dream of buying an old Farmhouse and converting the outbuildings......... A 30 secound walk to work across country fields has a certain appeal.