Digital vs. Analog: Tell Us Something We Haven't Heard

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MCI2424 said:
Why can't you give us an answer? We are waiting.............

By "We" if you mean other members of the forum... no I don't think we’re having any trouble with Dr ZEE’s creative and entertaining style of communication.

Anyway, we’re too busy right now waiting for you to support any of your uninformed posts with anything other than you know someone who knows someone who says so, and/or you just so happen to own whatever we happen to be talking about, have taken it apart and sent it piece by piece to Sandia National Laboratories for analysis. :rolleyes:
 
EQ's

MCI2424 said:
Whatever man


Here is two Pics of 31 band eq's I had to work on due to problems on one of the channels a few weeks ago I forgot I took Pics of the guts :p

The first up is a Klark Teknik

Klark Teknik 31 band EQ

Next is a DBX 31 band eq.

DBX 31 band EQ

I repaired both.

The only thing thats bad is the wide use of ribbon cable on a lot of the newer gear.

Which was the defect in both these units.

I prefer the DBX unit not for the style of components but it has 2 power supplys and seperate Input boards and EQ sections.

If the Klark Teknik was the same config i would use eather.

I took these pics for future reference thought I would share these with you.

More and more High End will go SMT whether we like it or not.

Provided the components are good there is no problems I got old motherboards that still work today and there full of SMT and there over 15 years old now.

My 2 Watts
 
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ditto

Beck said:
By "We" if you mean other members of the forum... no I don't think we’re having any trouble with Dr ZEE’s creative and entertaining style of communication.

SNIP


Dr Zee is like Confusious... Think deep and speak....few - words. Understanding comes....in time of its - own choosing. Loud people - cannot....hear.

Andy, you are very loud.
 
Confucius say .....
 

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good grief

Is this still a sort of 'analog versus digital' thread, or just an 'I'm smarter than you' thread, or perhaps an 'I can't attack the logic or facts so I'll attack the messenger' thread?

I guess I haven't been around here long enough or I'm not smart enough to know who is full of shit and who isn't. But I do know that if I WERE smart enough and knew my stuff, I wouldn't waste more than ONE good retort to someone who didn't know what they were talking about. Anything beyond that, and I start to wonder who really are the ones with their heads up their asses.


CP
 
crankypants said:
I guess I haven't been around here long enough or I'm not smart enough ...
CP
Guess both. Neither is a crime, yet fixable, so hang around.
 
cjacek said:
Confucius say .....
heh heh heh , good one :D
Speaking of "GPA" and "heads up their asses", here's a quote, read carefully, ;)
GPA Mission Statement

Provide added value to the global gas processing and gas liquids industry, from wellhead to market, by being a forum for:
*expanding of technological knowledge
*assimilating best practices
*discussing, debating, and influencing legislative and regulatory issues
*enhancing market perspective and insight
:D :D :D
...friendly provided by gasprocessors.com :D
 
SuperGeek said:
...
Provided the components are good .....

Qualifying statement?

What are "good components"?

Please explain.
Give specific examples of a "good" vs. "bad" component

Thankyou.
 
MCI2424 said:
What are "good components"?.
"It depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is. If the, if he, if "is" means is and never has been, that is not, that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement."
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 

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Dr ZEE said:
"It depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is. If the, if he, if "is" means is and never has been, that is not, that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement."
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Please tell us what "good components" are?

I (as well as the rest of the board) would like to know what to avoid.
Thanks.
 
hey I haven't been following this thread but I thought I would throw something out there. first of all, when I think of analog vs digital, to me, it mostly refers to tracking medium. and so to comapre analog with digital I would compare albums on CD which were tracked either to tape or protools (generally). I drove on a very long car trip yesterday and listened to a lot of stuff, including my own, and some of my more recent CD's that I like and think are cool. Like pretty girls make graves. The sonics on that first record are incredible. and it was all tracked digitally. I didn't read that in the liner notes, you can just hear it. I would bet a ham sandwich on it. Anywayz, it puts my recordings to shame. But, it still sounds annoying as hell. I can't stand that sound, its so sharp (not "crisp") and not pleasing to the ear. my tracks recorded on tape at least you can listen to for hours (well I happen to like my own music) but some of these newer CDs I can't take it after minutes or even seconds. I understand that a lot of it could be the current "crushing" trends but listen to somoe smashing pumpkins their shit was crushed but it didn't sound annoying like this. unfortunately the average consumer doens't notice it. which will inevitebly go back to the digital protagonist argument that I must have golden ears. maybe I do.
 
Why challenge everyone?

MCI2424 said:
Qualifying statement?

What are "good components"?

Please explain.
Give specific examples of a "good" vs. "bad" component

Thankyou.

Andy,

Why are you being such a buthead? Don't you have something better to do?

You know damn well what good components are.

Why challenge everyone. You could lose the attitude and fit in if you wanted. Is it that hard?
 
evm1024 said:
Andy,

Why are you being such a buthead? Don't you have something better to do?

You know damn well what good components are.

Why challenge everyone. You could lose the attitude and fit in if you wanted. Is it that hard?

I have yet to get 1 straight answer out of either of these guys. Why would anyone listen to these two yokels when they simply insult people, say their personal opinions as fact, and give advice with no examples or explanations?

They make people out to be the bad guys and drive people off the forum.

I have had no pm's ever on ANY of these forums in 4 years of being here, yet, because of this board and these yokels, my pm box is almost full asking for advice. Everyone says the same thing.

They don't like these guys and are not comfortable confronting them.
I answer all e-mails with info I have direct experience with either in using or owning/have owned.



Make them responsible for the content of their posts. They have opinions, you have opinions. They state theirs as "fact" and then, if pushed with real facts, they choose to personally attack the person, and then make a "funny" to end their sorry ass rants.

If people here choose to be doormats, do so. But, why are they here putting up with this shit?

They want to learn. That will not happen with these two shitbags here. Beck has much good information, but tends to go farther than he knows and hates to be proven wrong in the face of real experience and ZEE has no useful information as well as being a total ass.

So, I could care less how you guys want your forum to go. But, you should not become a doormat. Your opinions count and are just as important as theirs.

I have said it all.
 
Distorted.......

MCI2424 said:
I have yet to get 1 straight answer out of either of these guys. Why would anyone listen to these two yokels when they simply insult people, say their personal opinions as fact, and give advice with no examples or explanations?

They make people out to be the bad guys and drive people off the forum.

I have had no pm's ever on ANY of these forums in 4 years of being here, yet, because of this board and these yokels, my pm box is almost full asking for advice. Everyone says the same thing.

They don't like these guys and are not comfortable confronting them.
I answer all e-mails with info I have direct experience with either in using or owning/have owned.



Make them responsible for the content of their posts. They have opinions, you have opinions. They state theirs as "fact" and then, if pushed with real facts, they choose to personally attack the person, and then make a "funny" to end their sorry ass rants.

If people here choose to be doormats, do so. But, why are they here putting up with this shit?

They want to learn. That will not happen with these two shitbags here. Beck has much good information, but tends to go farther than he knows and hates to be proven wrong in the face of real experience and ZEE has no useful information as well as being a total ass.

So, I could care less how you guys want your forum to go. But, you should not become a doormat. Your opinions count and are just as important as theirs.

I have said it all.


Andy,

Sounds like you are holding a grudge from being banned. Perhaps it would be better to let that go. As I recall you and I did have words before you were banned. Water under the bridge. Shall we let it go?

In reading these and other posts I think that you demand that others prove their points to a level that you do not hold yourself to. A simple example is about "good components". You do know what he meant and what a good component is.

In terms of audio listening there is only opinion. When someone says that DIGITAL sucks we can all assume that it is opinion. Nothing like this is provable. (Apples Suck, oranges are good)

However when someone says that DIGITAL is perfect we can prove that it is not. With no need to talk about how good it sounds. ANALOGS defects are well known and no one says that ANALOG is perfect.

Beck and Zee and the others are very approachable and helpful. I doubt that anyone is worried about confronting them. I have corrected them and the correction was accepted without problems. I don't see them as a problem.

So let's get back to the base issues, How do you want to fit in.... Why do you think that anyone on this list owes you a straight answer? Do you want to bury the hatchet?

Ethan
 
MCI2424 said:
because of this board and these yokels, my pm box is almost full asking for advice.
So? Great! Looks like if not for "these yokels" your pm would be still empty. You should thank "these yokels" then.
*********

MCI2424 said:
Everyone says the same thing. They don't like these guys and are not comfortable confronting them.
Making a post on the open board ("confronting" included) ultimately makes one responsible for the content of his/her post(s). Many people are not comfortable with that. That's a given.
*********
MCI2424 said:
They want to learn.
Some do, some don't.
*********
MCI2424 said:
say their personal opinions as fact...

Like this one: "That will not happen with these two shitbags here."?
*********
MCI2424 said:
give advice with no examples or explanations...
Like this one: "Buy a nice Lavery converter and be done with it. ... Have fun."?
**********
 
MCI2424 said:
I have yet to get 1 straight answer out of either of these guys.
YOU will never get it. The reson why is because you failed to fool us. We, (and I DO mean WE!), see clearly what you are and why your are here. You get only what you REALLY ask for.

MCI2424 said:
Why would anyone listen to these two yokels ....
Simple answer: because they (I mean WE) are not talking here, - we are having CONVERSATION - that IS why.
We are here not to learn, nor we are here to teach. We are here to share - and by doing so we do both.

MCI2424 said:
...when they simply insult people.
Only those people who insult members of HR community and only when the "insult" is the only lasting option. That is the case with MCI2424 (aka all the previous user names, under which that person used to post on HR forums).

I could copy-paste and create the endless list of examples of MCI2424/aka acorec etc. directly insulting members. (Simply look through all the posts from acorec or MCI2424.). I am not going to do so - not worthy.

But I am going to post here just one quote, which shows the essence of what that individual is all about and why he's here:

Posted by MCI2424: "So, in the home recording scenario, it is unlikely a hit record will come out of your bedroom, so use what you can afford and have fun. Fun is what it is all about, is it not?"
He is here to tell YOU (all of you - members of home recording community, that is) : "You, home recordists, can have fun, but at the end you suck anyway."
Am I going to "ask" MCI2424 to back up the statement above with "facts"? - NO, I am not.
What am I going to do? I am going to tell this:
"Hey, MCI2424! SHUT THE F*CK UP!"
 
Dr ZEE said:
YOU will never get it. The reson why is because you failed to fool us. We, (and I DO mean WE!), see clearly what you are and why your are here. You get only what you REALLY ask for.


Simple answer: because they (I mean WE) are not talking here, - we are having CONVERSATION - that IS why.
We are here not to learn, nor we are here to teach. We are here to share - and by doing so we do both.


Only those people who insult members of HR community and only when the "insult" is the only lasting option. That is the case with MCI2424 (aka all the previous user names, under which that person used to post on HR forums).

I could copy-paste and create the endless list of examples of MCI2424/aka acorec etc. directly insulting members. (Simply look through all the posts from acorec or MCI2424.). I am not going to do so - not worthy.

But I am going to post here just one quote, which shows the essence of what that individual is all about and why he's here:

Posted by MCI2424: "So, in the home recording scenario, it is unlikely a hit record will come out of your bedroom, so use what you can afford and have fun. Fun is what it is all about, is it not?"
He is here to tell YOU (all of you - members of home recording community, that is) : "You, home recordists, can have fun, but at the end you suck anyway."
Am I going to "ask" MCI2424 to back up the statement above with "facts"? - NO, I am not.
What am I going to do? I am going to tell this:
"Hey, MCI2424! SHUT THE F*CK UP!"

Thanks Zee. You are the man.
 
FALKEN said:
hey I haven't been following this thread but I thought I would throw something out there. first of all, when I think of analog vs digital, to me, it mostly refers to tracking medium. and so to comapre analog with digital I would compare albums on CD which were tracked either to tape or protools (generally). I drove on a very long car trip yesterday and listened to a lot of stuff, including my own, and some of my more recent CD's that I like and think are cool. Like pretty girls make graves. The sonics on that first record are incredible. and it was all tracked digitally. I didn't read that in the liner notes, you can just hear it. I would bet a ham sandwich on it. Anywayz, it puts my recordings to shame. But, it still sounds annoying as hell. I can't stand that sound, its so sharp (not "crisp") and not pleasing to the ear. my tracks recorded on tape at least you can listen to for hours (well I happen to like my own music) but some of these newer CDs I can't take it after minutes or even seconds. I understand that a lot of it could be the current "crushing" trends but listen to somoe smashing pumpkins their shit was crushed but it didn't sound annoying like this. Unfortunately the average consumer doesn’t notice it. which will inevitably go back to the digital protagonist argument that I must have golden ears. Maybe I do.

That's a good point. Reminds me that we have a multitude of reasons things don’t sound right to a lot of people. There’s been a lot of talk about "Loudness wars"... or what we used to call "The Club Mix Syndrome" many years ago.

I think about the typical listening habits and listening environment now compared to time past. Things are being mastered white-hot to cut through the background of clubs, cars and places where other activities are the focal point, with high fidelity being low on the list of importance.

Sure, people have always listened with decent car audio systems and at bars, etc. One difference I see is the decline of listening as a central activity. Compare say… sitting in your den by the fire and listing to John Denver. Most people that do that aren’t buying many new albums and music isn’t being mixed for that sort of audience or environment.

Also, as much as we talk about the dynamic range of CD being ideal for classical music, the reality is it’s merely a potential because people aren’t often using it. Classical music sales have traditionally been a tiny portion of record company profits, and I just read recently that it’s declined even further from its average 3%.

In short, it seems to me the industry has little incentive to mix for pure listening environments. Going back many years the “Hi-Fi” logo was stamped on records and tapes much like the digital logo is now. Rather than just a gimmick, Hi-Fi was truly the point of reference at one time -- the sweet-spot of an audiophile system the measure that defined “Good”.

One of the ironies here is that if digital technology is indeed advancing, recent mixing, mastering and broadcasting trends are masking these improvements.

~Tim
:)
 
Beck said:
One of the ironies here is that if digital technology is indeed advancing, recent mixing, mastering and broadcasting trends are masking these improvements.

yeah but this was happening well before digital recording took off. listen to stuff from the early 90's.......

Did anyone see that pbs special on Wal-Mart and China the other night?? (Wal Mart: Good for America?) They were first making the connection that Wal-Mart and other big warehouse type stores such as Target, sports authority, Best Buy, etc., but specifically Wal Mart's cost-driven model had driven 80% of their suppliers to manufacture in China. I believe this would have happened anyway but Wal Mart probably sped up the process. It then focused on the television industry. Since so many televisions were being manufactured in China, the only plant left in the US found a niche in constructing "High End" televisions. The big assed ones. But in one year, he lost 30% of his revenue (200 M) to China. So he sued China for dumping violations, citing poorer salaries and benefits, an intentional 30% devaluation of the currency, and government subsidies as creating an unfair advantage, and that China was selling these High End televisions below "fair market value". He won. The US increased tarriffs on the imports of high end televisions. (not that this solves the problems)

This in my opinion is very similar to Guitar Center and "Squire" guitars and $300 all-in-one "studios". The gear manufactures figured this out too because it seems there is more botique gear being sold than ever. But just recently we have products like "Chameleon Labs" making the same stuff in China but at a lower cost.

Anywayz this wasn't supposed to be a "is China good or bad?" debate, There's already a 30 page argument on that over at Gearslutz, but Where I was going is that I think that this phenomenom might have contributed to the decline in sound quality. One completely valid view might be that consumers standard of living has increased dramatically because they can buy inexpensive good quality televisions at wal mart. But they're not buying television stations at walmart to produce the shows.

Did anyone see the thread over at Tape-Op where in the classifieds this guy was selling his complete porno collection? Its definitely a classic. It went off on many, many jokes about the "analog quality" of VHS. There might be some truth in that.

I had jury duty on monday and they sat the potential jurors in a room and had us watch a DVD. mid-way through towards the end it crashed. not like, a tracking problem like on VHS and you get past the bad part and its ok again. More like, the screen went garbled and the DVD player froze. End of video.

That, to me, is probably the problem with digital that I hear. Its that the distortion is worse. Analog tape is far from linear. Every deck has a corrective eq added on to compensate for the fault in the process. But when it distorts it is not "end of video". When a digital system distorts (and I am not talking about digital overs, I am talking about any distortion in the process from timing errors or rounding errors, faulty data, whatever) the result is much less listenable. Just a guess. I think this is why digital masters sound better than digital multitracks. (less distortion adding up).
 
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