USB Extender over Ethernet vs. Active USB cable

[sumitsimlai]

I take a cue from an old thread on the same subject which unfortunately, as I see it, wasn’t resolved.

It’s here:

USB extension for Audio Interface

These days, particularly with increasing computing power, fan noise from chassis and SMPS are unimaginable higher than yesteryears. This means that there’s a growing need of having computers sit in another room or at a distance where noise is greatly muffled.

I’m addition, home studios are inherently small, whereas the growing lust to add devices ans to do better recordings, have all resulted into crammed spaces.

The downside to all this is a direct hit on the issue of USB connectivity of at least the following types of devices:

1. Mice and QWERTY keyboards
2. USB based MIDI controllers, faders, control surfaces
3. USB based MIDI keyboards
4. USB based audio interfaces (I think all of them are)
5. USB based MIDI Interfaces
6. USB based hardware synthesiser modules

Most of devices are supplied with barely sufficient lengths of USB cables for connecting to a computer. Most will never reach the distance involved, with the computers either moved to another room or to another location in the same room, far from the recording desk.

Those who can afford it, will clearly go the Ethernet route using Dante and what not. But the bulk majority of us can’t.

So there has to be a workaround.

In my journey to set up my studio some quite some months now, and with the same dilemma as above, I have pondered over the limited options of USB 2.0 connectivity without any signal degradation. One option is an active USB 2.0 and the other is the use of a USB Extender with two powered devices connected by a CAT 5e cable.

I have tried the latter with success while connecting a keyboard and a mouse. I haven’t yet tried any audio device, because nothing is in working condition right now. But I have to plan everything based on this aspect - distance.

I have scoured the Internet and have only read limited usage by some people including Tom Holkenborg. Tom displayed the AV Access which he was using for extending his mouse. He’s never mentioned anything about using UZB Extenders with any of the above types of devices.

Sorry for the long post but I do need serious inputs from those who have had experience in this area and what solutions they deployed.

 

[Folkcafe]

I run a company that does AV installation. USB is an ongoing issue, especially with PC. USB 2.0 perhaps a bit less so, but USB 3 requires specific timings to be maintained and Icron has a patent on technology that allows for reliable extension. Even then, I run into issues with things like touch monitors and HDMI capture. Keep in mind, all active extension devices are seen as a hub adding a "hop". We run into the same issues with commercial installations with USB. Unreliable is an understatement. Conferencing cameras become unresponsive and requires a reboot.

I'm on a Mac and use an optical thunderbolt cable to a CalDigit Thunderbolt 4 hub. My professional experience with PC's is one of the reasons I went Mac. I can run a couple of SSD drives and all my peripherals like keyboards and controllers. I don't however plug my interface into the hub. I dedicate a separate optical line. I used to use a Creston extender but only because I got it for free. I only used it for keyboards and controllers though. It worked well for that. When I wanted to be able to plug in SSD drives, I added another optical line with the CalDigit Hub.

If going with a cable extender solution, see if you can find an optical one. For performance and reliability, I suggest keeping peripherals separate from the interface, meaning two systems to extend.

Ethernet, Icron Ranger series are reliable but a bit pricey.

 

[rob aylestone]

I did exactly this - USB active extender cable, with a small USB hub at the monitor end in the studio - I also had an HDMI pair of cables under the floor too - just long enough. Mice, keyboards and the empty USB socket for sticks or random USB devices work fine. Monitors mostly work, but occasionally the mac loses the monitor - or worse, half loses it so one of the two monitors comes on, goes off, comes on and the mac spends it's time trying to keep the screen displays working properly. There's no real thing that sets it off - swapping monitors did nothing - so maybe a slow starting cable issue? The USB is stable - one of those with the larger USB connectors on the ends with the electronics inside - Amazon sourced. The bad news is that the audio cables are also in the same under floor duct and the interface, computer end, often picks up the mouse movement, or even the changes in screen display going from say black to white, or when the mouse cursor moves around - the usual data sawtoothy zippy noise. Clearly it's leakage from one to the other in the closely packed duct - but how it's getting into the amp is a mystery - so far. If I was to do it again - I would have two ducts - one for audio, one for data and keep them as spaced as I can. Disconnecting the mouse silences it, but of course it drops the driver, so it could be coupling at the computer end. With hindsight, I should have assembled and tested the cables before pulling them into the duct - it could be the USB cable, with the electronics spreading the interference, I just don't know. I now have a silent studio with no fan noise, but a noisy mouse and monitors.

 

[sumitsimlai]

Well thanks for the replies but I was expecting replies from experience with audio interfaces installed at long distances from the computer

 

[rob aylestone]

I don't understand? Most interfaces don't struggle with the old USB spec, and If I shove in an audio interface in the studio, it works fine? Never thought it was unusual? The USB long cables seem to manage whatever I connect. What kind of distance are you thinking about, You can get 10m active cables for about £15 from Amazon, Probably best to just buy one and try it with your gear if you are worried? Mine are 7m long, which is just long enough.

 

[Folkcafe]

I don't understand? Most interfaces don't struggle with the old USB spec, and If I shove in an audio interface in the studio, it works fine? Never thought it was unusual? The USB long cables seem to manage whatever I connect. What kind of distance are you thinking about, You can get 10m active cables for about £15 from Amazon, Probably best to just buy one and try it with your gear if you are worried? Mine are 7m long, which is just long enough.

Might it work? Sure, depending on channel density. Add more traffic on one hub for a bunch of midi and keyboard and mouse? Find me one interface manufacturer that doesn't advise connecting direct to the computer. An active cable will be seen by the PC as a hub. Will probably work for a 2 channel interface but wouldn't be surprised having drop outs. Add more devices to the same cable, the more likely you'll have problems.

This is why I suggested going with a fiber for the audio interface as it will be seen as a direct connection vs the active cables that will be seen as a hub.

 

[Folkcafe]

Well thanks for the replies but I was expecting replies from experience with audio interfaces installed at long distances from the computer

I get it, didn't get the answer you are looking for.

Rob and I have built plenty of studios. Professionally, I've used every major USB extender there is. With the advent of the adoption of Teams and Zoom in the corporate environment, USB has been kicking our butts. With Corporate IT being so PC focused, all the systems from Logitech, Poly, Crestron and so forth are PC based. USB has been crap on PC since XP. I suspect too much legacy support in the OS. PC's barely have USB 3 working well. Thunderbolt works like crap.

The issue with extending 2.0 is going to be USB bandwidth and traffic density. The PC is not good at managing or prioritizing traffic if you place the interface along with Midi and everything else. Have I done it. No, because there are other options that I pointed out and there isn't one manufacturer that supports this. This is why I suggested a separate fiber cable to the interface.

This rack has 8 Mac Mini's with Fiber running to the control room to CalDigit Hubs. I'm running audio and video.

 

[TalismanRich]

I am not seeing the same issue as the OP does with regards to computer noise. My last two desktop machines had rather large fans but they ran at slower speeds, so the noise was actually far lower than my old P4-1.4GHz machine. Plus, most modern motherboards will throttle down the fan speeds when the computer is not being taxed.

The exception seems to be when using some video cards with multiple fans. A few of those can get really noisy, but I think that happens more when doing video rendering, especially with games.

My DAW PC is actually inside a small cabinet on the side of the desk. I removed part of the back wall to allow ventilation, but the sound is even further reduced. A wireless keyboard and mouse means I don't have cord issues.

I can see an issue for commercial studios, but for the typical home setup, is it really a problem?

BTW, if nobody else mentions it... Nice rack, FolkCafe!

 

[Folkcafe]

BTW, if nobody else mentions it... Nice rack, FolkCafe!

Probably one of the few instances where you can say that.

This is a video studio I just finished for a medical device company. It supports two operating rooms and they broadcast out to doctors all over the globe. Audio is all Dante and interconnects between all the rooms in the center including a board room and small theater.

I want one of these for my house. 32x9 video wall.

 

[sumitsimlai]

Gentlemen,

Thanks for all your inputs.

How would I connect the audio interfaces to the computers using fiber?

As I said, I also have a severe space shortage so there’s no way I can get a short enough direct connection path for the USB.

How did the large studios manage this ever? Or even home studios with multiple computers?

The issue is not just with audio interfaces but with the control devices and faders. The supplies USB cables are too short even for computers sitting right next to them.

Tell me, am I the only one who has computers moved to another room in a small studio? And isn’t there any solution?

To answer @rob aylestone the distances I’m talking about are anything between 3.5 to 5.5 metres. The supplied cables are hardly 5 feet.

And to top it all, some devices are USB c. Even more of a PITA. No extender or active cables exist for USB c, do they?

 

[Folkcafe]

Gentlemen,

Thanks for all your inputs.

How would I connect the audio interfaces to the computers using fiber?

As I said, I also have a severe space shortage so there’s no way I can get a short enough direct connection path for the USB.

How did the large studios manage this ever? Or even home studios with multiple computers?

The issue is not just with audio interfaces but with the control devices and faders. The supplies USB cables are too short even for computers sitting right next to them.

I'll be happy to share all that I know. As to how I did it in the past, I built machine rooms but only had to extend monitor video and keyboard and mouse. Big studios are not putting interfaces on their desks. Answer a few questions and I'll see if we can get you some information you can use.

What is the computer and what interface are you planning on using? How far are you planning on extending? USB spec says 2.0 is 5 meters with no need for active extension. 16ft enough? If so, a plain extension cable would suffice. Just use one for the interface and then another with a hub for the rest (powered). Midi isn't a problem and same for the keyboard and mouse. Longer and you can find Fiber USB extension cables. They are 3.0 but backwards compatible.

 

[sumitsimlai]

Q: What is the computer and what interface are you planning on using?

A: Two computers with external interfaces (two more with PCI soundcards) as follows:

- PC1: Windows 10 Pro, Asus TUF GAMING B560-PLUS motherboard; Presonus Studio 1824c (USB c to USB A 2.0 connectivity cable)
- PC2: Windows 10 Pro, Advantech AIMB-705 motherboard; Behringer UMC1820 (USB B to USB A 2.0 connectivity cable)

B. USB Control surfaces:

- Behringer BCR2000 - Connect to PC4
- Behringer BCF2000 - Connect to PC3
- Akai MIDIMix - Connect to PC2
- Presonus ioStation 24c- Connect to PC1
- NI Maschine Mikro MK3 - Connect to PC2

C: USB Keyboard controllers:

- Yamaha KX61
- Nektar LX88+
- Edirol PCR30
- Creative Blasterkeys

D: USB Synths:

- Roland J6 - Chord Synthesizer
- Roland S1 Tweak Synthesizer
- Alesis SR16 Drum Machine
- Behringer Model D

Besides, some old school MIDI synths like Korg X5DR and Yamaha MU128 without the pain of USB.

Q: How far are you planning on extending?

A: anything between 3.5 to 5.5 metres. In the case of my Nektar keyboard, it's even longer. Have to measure but easily 6.5 to 7 metres. So 5 metres (16 ft) is barely enough for some devices, but ok for some others.

Q: Longer and you can find Fiber USB extension cables.

A: How do I connect them between two USB ports, one on the controller / interface end and other on the PC end?

I beg you have a look at this device that I was mentioning Junkie XL uses in his studio (not sure for what purpose though):

USB Extender Runs Your Audio Interface to the Laptop over Distances - AV Access

USB extenders usually refer to the technology of USB extension via ethernet. A USB extender consists of two boxes, a transmitter(TX) and a receiver(RX) and

www.avaccess.com

They claim having used in churches where distances are large.

I am in a very tight spot because of this issue. Space being the main constraint (sorry that I prioritised the noise issue first in my original post), there is no way I can reduce. In fact all my computers are installed into industrial enclosures, and these are in a tall 19 inch closed fan cooled cabinet, with only top and bottom cable entry. This enclosure is sitting in the corner far from my desk on my right, behind me (on the right) while the interface and other rack mounted devices are on the left of my desk. The controllers are on my right and on the desk. The keyboards are behind me and also on my right. Wah!!!

SOS!!

 

[Folkcafe]

Perhaps it will be helpful to better understand USB spec and connectivity. The 5 meter limitation doesn't mean if you are slightly past that, it no longer works. It's a spec. As an engineer, we design to spec because we know it will work.

If you can get by with the 5 meters to both interfaces, use a 5 meter non-active cable, one for each. Good design means not sharing USB bandwidth for audio. It's the cheapest option as well. A short 1 meter USB A to USB B gets you a total of 6 meters, going just slightly over "spec".

The other thing to understand, once you add an active device, say like a USB hub, you gain another 5 meters in limitation. In fact, some of the active 2.0 USB cables have a big bulge every 5 meters. This is the USB buffer amp. Manufacturers build devices to spec when building these cables using copper. That way, they can guarantee they will work properly. For all your other Midi devices and controllers, get a big hub, just if you are going to multiple PC's, each with an audio interface, use a separate USB run.

As to the extender you linked. USB 2.0 is relatively forgiving but it seems you are looking for an iron clad guarantee that it will work for you without any issues. Getting past the spec, here is why that would be difficult to promise, even if someone else has done it. Each of your PC's have different motherboards with different chip sets and who know what for software and drivers. USB audio is a continous stream of data and Windows was never great at managing multiple data streams flowing though one USB port. Add all the variables and the best you get is a maybe. It's gotten better, but not perfect. It's why if you RTFM, it says to plug the interface directly into the PC port. I won't tell you it will work, I will however say it wouldn't be best practice. For the price of this extender, you can get 5 extension cables which is 5 times the bandwidth.

So with your Midi stuff, perhaps this video will demonstrate what I am suggesting a bit clearer. John is using a big commercial USB hub and connecting 20 Midi devices to an iPad. The idea is the same. One USB extender cable to a big USB 2.0 hub and you've got up to another 5 meters and can connect all your devices back to the PC.

 

[sumitsimlai]

Thanks for the time taken to write back.

A few questions arising from your note:

1. "The other thing to understand, once you add an active device, say like a USB hub, you gain another 5 meters in limitation. In fact, some of the active 2.0 USB cables have a big bulge every 5 meters. This is the USB buffer amp. Manufacturers build devices to spec when building these cables using copper. That way, they can guarantee they will work properly."

Are you suggesting that I rather go for active than passive cable? Or should I live with 5 metres passive? I might need to make drastic rearrangements but if it is needed to be done, so be it.

2. "For all your other Midi devices and controllers, get a big hub, just if you are going to multiple PC's, each with an audio interface, use a separate USB run."

As I mentioned above, all other MIDI devices of mine actually include:

B. USB Control surfaces:

- Behringer BCR2000 - Connect to PC4
- Behringer BCF2000 - Connect to PC3
- Akai MIDIMix - Connect to PC2
- Presonus ioStation 24c- Connect to PC1
- NI Maschine Mikro MK3 - Connect to PC2

C: USB Keyboard controllers:

- Yamaha KX61
- Nektar LX88+
- Edirol PCR30
- Creative Blasterkeys

D: USB Synths:

- Roland J6 - Chord Synthesizer
- Roland S1 Tweak Synthesizer
- Alesis SR16 Drum Machine
- Behringer Model D

Let's take one by one. Other than the Presonus ioStation 24c, the control surfaces are purely that. Of them, Akai manual says they don't mind powered USB hubs. Behringer and Native Instruments I have no clue, so perhaps I won't take the risk, and would rather stick with 5 metre. That leaves the Presonus ioStation 24c. That machine is a USB audio interface-cum-controller, so to be safe, I would stick to the specified length. I don't know what they were thinking but all Presonus'es I saw, supply 1 metre. Now whether that limitation is in addition to USB 2.0 or not, I cannot say.

USB Keyboards, as the video you sent, shows that hub is a distinct possibility. No issue there.

That leaves me with the synths. Somewhere I read that synths do not behave when longer USB cables are used. I can't say more. I am doing further diggiing...if I find, I will let you know.

Thanks anyway.

 

[sumitsimlai]

I don't know how truthful this video is!

 

[sumitsimlai]

I searched a lot regarding using extended USB cables for MIDI Synths and for control surfaces. Got nothing. No convincing videos or posts. The problem is I don’t have the space to cram everything near to my desk.

 

[Folkcafe]

Sorry, on the road yesterday and didn't get in till late.

Midi is easy. In my last set up, I used a Crestron Extender for all my Midi controllers and keyboards and all worked fine. My caution is only keeping the integrity of the data signal for audio.

It's actually pretty simple. Upon re-reading, I had been looking at this as 2 computers, not 4,. One being your DAW and the other a Midi workstation.

So to clarify. Two extension cables per PC that has USB audio. One direct to the audio interface, the other into a powered USB Hub. The reason for a Powered hub is that many controllers are USB powered. There is no issue with plugging your powered USB devices becuase it is the same as plugging direct. Your PC also has power.

So you'll end up getting multiple USB hubs, one for each PC. Just get a 2.0 powered hub with enough ports to meet your needs. They come in lots of flavors.

Then what is left is determining if 6 meters is enough for the audio interfaces and 10 meters enough for all your other devices.

 

[sumitsimlai]

Sorry, on the road yesterday and didn't get in till late.

Midi is easy. In my last set up, I used a Crestron Extender for all my Midi controllers and keyboards and all worked fine. My caution is only keeping the integrity of the data signal for audio.

It's actually pretty simple. Upon re-reading, I had been looking at this as 2 computers, not 4,. One being your DAW and the other a Midi workstation.

So to clarify. Two extension cables per PC that has USB audio. One direct to the audio interface, the other into a powered USB Hub. The reason for a Powered hub is that many controllers are USB powered. There is no issue with plugging your powered USB devices becuase it is the same as plugging direct. Your PC also has power.

So you'll end up getting multiple USB hubs, one for each PC. Just get a 2.0 powered hub with enough ports to meet your needs. They come in lots of flavors.

Then what is left is determining if 6 meters is enough for the audio interfaces and 10 meters enough for all your other devices.

Yes it’s 4 PCs, of which, one is a DAW, while the other three are MIDI Synths.

About the powered hubs, do you think I still need to buy these, having already invested in two AV Access USB over Ethernet Extenders? I thought MIDI wouldn’t be a problem if the keyboards, control surfaces and controllers are connected to AV Accesd, would it?

About the audio interfaces, I’ve tried to rearrange them so probably I’m still going to need 4.5 meters for one of them, 3.8 meters for the second and about 2 meters for the third. The question is, since Presonus supplied only 1 meter long cables for its two audio interfaces, would using a longer cable of 4.5 meters create problems?

About the 10 meters I didn’t quite get it. Did you mean MIDI cables?

 

[sumitsimlai]

I don't know how truthful this video is!

Did you check out this video? Doctored? True? Can’t really say.

 

[Folkcafe]

Yes it’s 4 PCs, of which, one is a DAW, while the other three are MIDI Synths.

About the powered hubs, do you think I still need to buy these, having already invested in two AV Access USB over Ethernet Extenders? I thought MIDI wouldn’t be a problem if the keyboards, control surfaces and controllers are connected to AV Accesd, would it?

About the audio interfaces, I’ve tried to rearrange them so probably I’m still going to need 4.5 meters for one of them, 3.8 meters for the second and about 2 meters for the third. The question is, since Presonus supplied only 1 meter long cables for its two audio interfaces, would using a longer cable of 4.5 meters create problems?

About the 10 meters I didn’t quite get it. Did you mean MIDI cables?

I'm really starting to lose my ability to communicate as I've gotten old.

If you have the Cat extenders, those would act as your Hub. In fact, that is how your PC will see it. I'll avoid the technical in hope it keeps things clear.
If you have enough USB ports to do what you need, then just use that. Just don't stack more hubs (plug a hub into the extender), I'll try to explain below.

As I said previously, the spec for USB 2.0 is 5 meters. If you avoid any sort of hub and not go too far past 5 meters, that would be best practice. IE a direct connection to the PC without any active electronics in between to muck it up. In a previous post I included a Amazon cable. It is USB 2.0 male to female without any active electronics. You'd plug the 1 meter long cable that came with the Presonus giving you 6 meters. It's a little out of spec but many, and I mean many have gotten away with it and it works just fine.

With USB, every time you add a buffer like with an active extension cable or hub, we call it a hop. This hop resets the length limitations. So a 5 meter extension cable or your USB over Cat cable would be a hop as it is seen by the PC as a hub. From here you can add another 5 meters and still be in spec. Hope this clarifies things a bit.

When we do AV installs with cameras and such, we like to avoid cascading hops (essentially a hub plugged into a hub). This is where trouble starts and crap stops working. Even then, if a camera skips a frame, the compression software in Teams or Zoom compensates usually. All of this is probably the source of much of your frustration as nobody can with any certainty tell you a USB extender will work perfectly with your interface. Best we can do is definitely maybe or maybe not. Factors like chip sets and how your motherboard handles bus traffic internally and what services are running in the background that might see traffic from a hub as non-essential. (back to the extender is seen as a hub)

I did not check out the video, I do run a business and end of week was a bit chaotic. I will when I get up to the studio and have a moment.