Digital vs. Analog: Tell Us Something We Haven't Heard

[ausrock]

Ausrock, I may not have quite got your meaning first time.

Or you conveniently ignored it.

Are you saying there isnt and never will be a tape emulation plug in?"

No, the core of what I said was........"Maybe part of the cause of the frustration people who have experienced analogue feel about digital, is not so much digital itself but the way so many people have almost blindly bought into the marketing hype.........".

The rest of my post was a cynical dig at the masses who, 1) (again) blindly believe digital is the duck's guts, and 2) while never having used analogue (tape), have (again) blindly bought into the marketing hype regarding analogue and tape warmth, etc. Whether or not there are emulators for this purpose is irelevant to my post.

 

[Dr ZEE]

All we have done really, in my opinion, is traded the above for a different set of problems and issues...

...and left ourselves with no cool machines to play with.

... ones, which, again in my opinion, made many of us go back and appreciate analog even more...

...and to get back cool machines to play with
So even on a dark and rainy day or night, when neither bending the string nor recording is going well, we're still having a good time

 

[Tim Gillett]

Or you conveniently ignored it.





No, the core of what I said was........"Maybe part of the cause of the frustration people who have experienced analogue feel about digital, is not so much digital itself but the way so many people have almost blindly bought into the marketing hype.........".

The rest of my post was a cynical dig at the masses who, 1) (again) blindly believe digital is the duck's guts, and 2) while never having used analogue (tape), have (again) blindly bought into the marketing hype regarding analogue and tape warmth, etc. Whether or not there are emulators for this purpose is irelevant to my post.

Ausrock, I dont quite know what to say. I was only commenting on the example you gave and that's why I only cited that part.

I agree anyone who blindly buys into marketing hype has got a big problem because advertising hype is everywhere you look. That's a given. Unfortunately that hype didnt just begin in 1982 but has been around in one form or another since Adam was a boy.
I dont think a person has to have used analog tape for recording themselves to appreciate tape warmth, if that was what you were saying. They just have to have heard any one of the many analog recorded tracks that used the effect, and there must be thousands of them. Otherwise why would they have such a respect for an effect they'd never heard? Marketing hype? Maybe you're right. I dont know.

As one who's used analog tape for as long as I can remember (starting late 50's with my father's office dictaphone) I can get a little bit annoyed when people listen to a "digitally remastered" CD (how could it be any other way?) and often assume that an "old" recording of say "The Eagles" only sounds great on CD because it was digitally remastered , which they seem to assume is some process where old crappy recordings are magically "improved" far beyond what they ever were.
The truth is they were excellent recordings all along. The CD reissue (if done well) just confirms that. All the hard production work was done decades ago, in analog form.
So I wasnt trying to pick a fight in any way, shape or form. But I'm not of the opinion people today havent really learned how to record until they've come through the analog tape stage, if that's what you were saying. Some are of that view but I'm not one of them.
I think that whatever format is used for recording, analog or digital, one learn to master it, to know its strengths and its limitations. It's only after all a tool, a means to an end.

I'm a fellow Aussie by the way, West coast style.

Cheers Tim.

 

[Dr ZEE]

Otherwise why would they have such a respect for an effect they'd never heard? .

They don't have it. They just say that they do.

 

[MCI2424]

...plus, there is no software upgrades to analog nor will it be superceded by something else. It is what it is and stays like that for decades, provided it is properly cared for. A friend bought an old 4 track open reel Teac, from early 70's. Everything good including the caps and it sounds more convincing than any digital rig made today. The same machine from '72, not needing anything else but some oil, relubrication, alignment and a nice cleaning. Plus, you can't loose information on it as easily as on a digital rig, when, for instance, you don't press stop before the disk runs our of space or for any other reason when file information is not correctly written after recording, not to mention any accidental, one button deletions. This doesn't include endless software problems and disc failures.

One minor point:
The electrolytic caps on ANY electronic device are not good period. Those caps from that era were only good for 10-15 years.

I have re-capped plenty of machines and EVERY ONE sounded WAY better. There is no magic here at all. Old machines need re-capping and that is a fact. Power supplies get really noisy and "dirty" sounding with hum and buzz and other nasty shit.

Also. my Fostex D2424LV 24 track HD recorder is now 3 years old. No upgrades, no maintainence, no nothing. Works fine, sounds great, not even a single burp in all that time.

 

[Beck]

My TASCAM 246 went 17 years with no issues. After that it was time for a new pinch roller and capstan drive belt. Other than that, in the 20 years I’ve owned it, I’ve only had to repair one VU meter. In my case it only cost me parts and time, as I maintain my own gear.

Ok, putting sound quality issues aside and just speaking long-term cost of ownership for the moment…

I’ve replaced a lot of caps and other components in various devices, including many in computer power supplies. All electronic devices and components have vulnerabilities and statistical Mean-Time-Before-Failure rates, but not all vulnerable components in all individual devices will fail. Many have and will continue to last far beyond the projected functional life.

Speaking of which (and speaking as an IT professional), three years for a hard drive is a long life, as the projected life of the typical hard drive is probably a quarter of a capacitor made in the 70’s. Your HD may be living out its golden year as we speak.

The maintenance costs of ADATs, DAWs, HDRs, MDMs, etc. are often underestimated. This is especially tricky with PC-based DAWs because maintenance costs are hidden in general PC maintenance so familiar to this computer-centric society.

For example you may ask an average Joe that has used both a cassette 4-track and a DAW for the last five years, which one has been most problematic, and get something like the following…

BECK:
“So Joe, which has had more maintenance issues, your TASCAM cassette 4-track or your DAW?”

JOE:
“Well, I had to replace a couple rubber belts in the 4-track, which was a real pain in the ass! And I really hate having to clean and demagnetize the tape path every two weeks or before an important session… what a hassle!

Other than a new power supply, two flaky RAM modules and a bad hard drive my DAW has been maintenance-free. I also had to upgrade the BIOS to recognize the larger hard drive, which didn’t go too well because there was a bug in the first release that gave me the BSOD when I tried to enable DMA. I could no longer even get into the BIOS setup, so I had to download the fix at work and boot from a floppy to load the new BIOS version. Oh yeah, I almost forgot… I’ve had to replace a couple cooling fans that had been making really annoying grinding noises for awhile before they failed and caused my CPU to overheat and my PC to freeze.

Oh wait… did I mention that I’ve had to reinstall widows and all my programs three times… twice from those viruses and once because Norton Antivirus corrupted my boot sector with its inoculation routine. It made the FAT partition unreadable, and I couldn’t even see my files using the recovery console. But that was before they came out with the fix. It’s all good now… except I lost all the songs I was working on and had to start over. My recording software itself has had no problems, except I can’t use some of the newer, cool plug-ins until I upgrade. Eh, but my current motherboard and processor won’t support the upgrade, so I’m looking at a new PC… no big deal, right?

So hey, other than that my DAW has had no problems at all.”

Your friend,
Joe

 

[MCI2424]

My TASCAM 246 went 17 years with no issues. After that it was time for a new pinch roller and capstan drive belt. Other than that, in the 20 years I’ve owned it, I’ve only had to repair one VU meter. In my case it only cost me parts and time, as I maintain my own gear.

Ok, putting sound quality issues aside and just speaking long-term cost of ownership for the moment…

I’ve replaced a lot of caps and other components in various devices, including many in computer power supplies. All electronic devices and components have vulnerabilities and statistical Mean-Time-Before-Failure rates, but not all vulnerable components in all individual devices will fail. Many have and will continue to last far beyond the projected functional life.

Speaking of which (and speaking as an IT professional), three years for a hard drive is a long life, as the projected life of the typical hard drive is probably a quarter of a capacitor made in the 70’s. Your HD may be living out its golden year as we speak.

The maintenance costs of ADATs, DAWs, HDRs, MDMs, etc. are often underestimated. This is especially tricky with PC-based DAWs because maintenance costs are hidden in general PC maintenance so familiar to this computer-centric society.

For example you may ask an average Joe that has used both a cassette 4-track and a DAW for the last five years, which one has been most problematic, and get something like the following…

BECK:
“So Joe, which has had more maintenance issues, your TASCAM cassette 4-track or your DAW?”

JOE:
“Well, I had to replace a couple rubber belts in the 4-track, which was a real pain in the ass! And I really hate having to clean and demagnetize the tape path every two weeks or before an important session… what a hassle!

Other than a new power supply, two flaky RAM modules and a bad hard drive my DAW has been maintenance-free. I also had to upgrade the BIOS to recognize the larger hard drive, which didn’t go too well because there was a bug in the first release that gave me the BSOD when I tried to enable DMA. I could no longer even get into the BIOS setup, so I had to download the fix at work and boot from a floppy to load the new BIOS version. Oh yeah, I almost forgot… I’ve had to replace a couple cooling fans that had been making really annoying grinding noises for awhile before they failed and caused my CPU to overheat and my PC to freeze.

Oh wait… did I mention that I’ve had to reinstall widows and all my programs three times… twice from those viruses and once because Norton Antivirus corrupted my boot sector with its inoculation routine. It made the FAT partition unreadable, and I couldn’t even see my files using the recovery console. But that was before they came out with the fix. It’s all good now… except I lost all the songs I was working on and had to start over. My recording software itself has had no problems, except I can’t use some of the newer, cool plug-ins until I upgrade. Eh, but my current motherboard and processor won’t support the upgrade, so I’m looking at a new PC… no big deal, right?

So hey, other than that my DAW has had no problems at all.”

Your friend,
Joe

You won't hear caps drying out until they short. The sound degradation is something you get used to. In every deck and pre-amp I have re-capped, they all sounded far better. Caps dry out-period-this is fact. Ask any electrical engineer.

 

[evm1024]

You won't hear caps drying out until they short. The sound degradation is something you get used to. In every deck and pre-amp I have re-capped, they all sounded far better. Caps dry out-period-this is fact. Ask any electrical engineer.

Thought that you were a real pro....Don't you know that when you re-cap the sound changes and you have to learn the "sound" of that machine again? This introduces an unknown.

Of course you do have to re-cap some day but it is a weighty decision.

 

[Beck]

You won't hear caps drying out until they short. The sound degradation is something you get used to. In every deck and pre-amp I have re-capped, they all sounded far better. Caps dry out-period-this is fact. Ask any electrical engineer.

I've been working with electronics since I was 10... I don't have to ask anyone. Capacitors are not a single species. They are constructed from many different materials for different purposes, so no they don’t all fail or even deteriorate in the same way. I have devices loaded with perfectly functioning capacitors that are older than I am. One doesn’t have to ask an electrical engineer. One only has to measure the value of the capacitor and see that it matches the designation within the prescribed tolerance.

That being said, I’ve stated on this very forum that electrolytic caps are the bane of vintage gear, especially in power supplies.

But you've simply ignored the core of my post and skirted around the larger issue of equipment maintenance and usable service life in general, which you must acknowledge across the board rather than just picking on analog equipment.

The truth is, all man-made contraptions will require attention sooner or later. Any assertion to the contrary is disingenuous.

Just looking at ADATs and DAWs alone, the dependability argument for digital is clearly even a bigger loser than the sound quality issue.

 

[Dr ZEE]

I've been working with electronics since I was 10... .

he heh
what was you first 'project' that actually worked?
as I can recall from early-teen days mine first thing i've put together successfully was a four color light-music-box - flashing to the "hot music" ie "From Here To Eternity" by G Moroder arghhhhhhhhh. I had to paint the bulbs with color ink, and the ink would start burning and smoking after a while, so I'd have to do re-painting work again and again and changing bulbs too - maintenance that is - hah hah
I've also have built many things that didn't work at all, have destroyed numerous amount of radios, telephones and anything with electrical sh*t in it. Gotta know what's inside.

 

[cjacek]

One minor point:The electrolytic caps on ANY electronic device are not good period. Those caps from that era were only good for 10-15 years.

No doubt some need or will need recapping eventually, but, generally speaking, the 10-15 year mark is not quite right, at least not for many TEAC / TASCAM machines.

I found it perplexing, to say the least, that many recorders from as early as the the beginning of the 70's were still playing and recording fine with no apparent symptoms of caps going bad. Were they within factory spec ? Maybe or maybe not.

I posed my question to an authorized TEAC / TASCAM tech in Japan and it was obvious he knew his craft and had loads of experience with the said machines and he told me that it's more like about 40 years for the caps, with a caveat. He advised and confirmed, what some of us already said in the past, that for the long life of electrolytic capacitors, it is important to turn on the power switch at least a day per 6 months, even if you don't play the tape on the machine. Extracting from this, based on a 12hr day / 6mnths, it seems one should do this at least 2x per month and preferably once per week, for about 30 minutes. Every Monday, whether I do anything on a said machine, I power it on for 30 minutes.

 

[ausrock]

Like MCI, I have a Fostex "D" series 16 track recorder which is rock solid in it's performance, however, it was the impending death of a hard drive (one great song lost and more under threat) that led us to purchasing a 1" 16 trk R2R, anything of consequence on the Fostex was archived to tape and I now rest easy.

Some songs from the project I'm currently working on may be flown over to the Fostex for some fun editing and other stuff once the main project is completed.

 

[MCI2424]

I've been working with electronics since I was 10... I don't have to ask anyone. Capacitors are not a single species. They are constructed from many different materials for different purposes, so no they don’t all fail or even deteriorate in the same way. I have devices loaded with perfectly functioning capacitors that are older than I am. One doesn’t have to ask an electrical engineer. One only has to measure the value of the capacitor and see that it matches the designation within the prescribed tolerance.

That being said, I’ve stated on this very forum that electrolytic caps are the bane of vintage gear, especially in power supplies.

But you've simply ignored the core of my post and skirted around the larger issue of equipment maintenance and usable service life in general, which you must acknowledge across the board rather than just picking on analog equipment.

The truth is, all man-made contraptions will require attention sooner or later. Any assertion to the contrary is disingenuous.

Just looking at ADATs and DAWs alone, the dependability argument for digital is clearly even a bigger loser than the sound quality issue.

WOW, I guess all the decks I have re-capped, from the 70s-80s, and cut open the elecrtos to find virtually NO liquid ANYTHING is about as unlucky as you can get?

You can't measure capacitance with a cheap. ordinary meter with any degree of precision. A dried out cap. not shorted, can reads fine. A real cap meter costs a ton of $$$ (around 3,000 last I checked) and it is with this you will find them leaking like a son-of-a-bitch. Like trying to read a battery with a voltmeter. You cannot tell if a battery is good or bad with just a voltmeter. You need a load tester. Same thing with a cap.

Dried up caps leak ELECTRONS and are not stable. The TASCAM guy is not an engineer, and the company that manufactured these caps published their data sheets. I know of no electronic engineers (of which I am one by trade) that disagree with me. Everytime I have ever brought up re-capping my equipment, they understand completely. Working on electronics for 10 years is completely different from having an engineering degree and knowing all the theory as well as the construction, applications and limitations of said devices. Every machine I have ever re-capped came out sounding better and running cleanly. Argue with that.

 

[Dr ZEE]

Home-Recording hobbiest Blues:

My Meter is cheap. I've got no degree.
background vocals girls: whoo-hoo.

Oh, yeah, Baby.
My Meter is dirt-cheap and I've got nooo-ooo-whooo degree.
background vocals girls: aaaaaah.

My Baby comes to me and say' : - (short silent pause) - "Oooooooh, it's time to cut down that Old Oak Tree."

...and then guitar solo kicks in

 

[MCI2424]

Home-Recording hobbiest Blues:

My Meter is cheap. I've got no degree.
background vocals girls: whoo-hoo.

Oh, yeah, Baby.
My Meter is dirt-cheap and I've got nooo-ooo-whooo degree.
background vocals girls: aaaaaah.

My Baby comes to me and say' : - (short silent pause) - "Oooooooh, it's time to cut down that Old Oak Tree."

...and then guitar solo kicks in

Ignorance is bliss................You must be really happy.

 

[Dr ZEE]

You must be really happy.

Yes! Harmlessly so.

Ignorance is bliss.

Knowledge without wisdom is a threat to civilization and must be confronted.

 

[Beck]

electronic engineers (of which I am one by trade)

You have the most severe case of cyber fantasy syndrome I've ever seen.

It's fascinating though... and would even be entertaining if it didn't have the potential to screw up young/new members that buy into your "experienced Pro 2-inch" role-playing.

You're not trying to fool me... we both know that. Unfortunately as you evidently know, you only have to fool some.

For those of us that have been in the recording industry for most of our lives your language and poor grasp of the fundamentals betray you… just as if you were claiming to have been raised in Atlanta, but spoke with a thick Boston accent. Yeah… it’s that obvious.

Sure, it is possible that all this means is you’re just no good, and it is true, scraping by with a 2.0/4.0 GPA thanks to merciful professors will indeed get you through an EE program in some places.

The good news it that you are genuinely failing to acknowledge the issue of digital equipment service life because you have no idea what we're talking about. This is slightly better than simply ignoring it to deliberately deceive. I feel better about it.

 

[Dr ZEE]

Dried up caps leak ELECTRONS and ...

...what do the leaky ones do?

 

[evm1024]

Physics has changed!

SNIP

Dried up caps leak ELECTRONS and are not stable.

SNIP

Shill, No wait perhaps you reallly do not know shat youare talking about.....

 

[Beck]

...what do the leaky ones do?

Well, going by the book MCI is reading they can be quite deadly.